Direction for Video

The Saturday Show came out just like all the other lessons.  From the CPod site, you could download the podcast, post comments, etc.

A lot of things, many seemingly done as experiments, have come and gone on CPod over the past few years.  Some things stick and some don't.  It's kind of the nature of a start-up company.

I recall Clay was in many of the Qingwen podcasts.

jamestheron,

Thanks heaps again mate.Were either of the video commentary lessons or the Saturday show on this website originally or were they always on youtube?Also,poddies refer to Clay,but I've only come across him in Movie Madness.Was he in anything else and if so,where is that? 谢谢

I have no idea how to get the old Saturday Show podcasts now.  There weren't too many on video, but  the ones that were are still available.  One is at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7av1b9NWuOg

jamestheron,

Thanks heaps for that link.I had actually somehow stumbled across that video a while ago but didn't realise there were others and that they were called video commentary lessons.I've found the others which is cool 非常感谢

Is there any way of seeing the old Saturday show poddies refer to?

Tvan, great idea about showing film clips then having an audio commentary to discuss it.  It could be like Movie Madness (so many of us loved that show) with a movie clip from youtube or wherever, then an audio commentary like MM used to do.

Kill two birds with one stone...we get our video and Cpod saves resources.

I know it's not quite the same, and it's a different kind of "video learning," but it could be an interesting way to bring back Movie Madness and get some more visual learning for everyone.

I don't think anybody disagrees that video is quite valuable as a teaching tool.  However, producing video is more complex (i.e. costly) by an order of magnitude.  A couple of possibilities:

First, consider showing a snippet of video from a TV series/film/documentary, and then discuss the dialogue in audio format.  You don't need a PDF (i.e. they already have subtitles), and it eliminates the production aspect.

Second, and I don't mean to sound snippy, but there is a wealth of Chinese film resources available both in lesson format (see above for one example) and, of course, in Chinese media.  Watch it!  We shouldn't rely upon CPod to tell us where everything is.  Hell, if you're upper intermediate level, trying to navigate 土豆 is a good real-world lesson in itself.

The disadvantage of the first approach is that it would be very hard to tailor a lesson for the Newbie level; that almost demands a custom video production.

But it's majority thing, I understand that.

antony73, what majority thing? there are probably less than 100 people commenting on such topics, it's CPod's market research, not wisdom of the crowds. That'll help them fine tune their approach but I very much doubt they will go with the majority - nor should they.

puppets. srsly.

On second thoughts, a polished video dialogue for every lesson probably isn't reasonable or practical.

I like were amesburygeorge is going because I'm a firm believer in the more methods of learning used the more it sticks. I know I've said this before elsewhere on cpod, but the more senses you use during learning the better. And what has always been a major help to me has been to ask native speakers to say the word or sentence for me, so I can SEE those words being said. This has

been such a precious and productive learning tool for

me. This style of video is

neither expensive or time consuming and may be possible for every lesson. Check out 'jeanchen1116' video lesson on 'Time' on youtube. Sorry can't paste the lesson I'm using mobile. Although saying the above, I thought The Radical Show was great. But it's majority thing, I understand that.

I really liked both What's the Story and the Vocab Tours, but maybe liking and efficient learning are different things. Still I miss them. I do remember the tool names in the very funny lesson about giving birth more than I remember the names from the hair salon.

I was hoping for a video from Pete or Gulam about saying things with the wrong tones and the consequences.  Mostly I get the wrong food when I don't use the right tones.  I ask for a something simple, jian3dan1 简单,  and get something with an extra egg in it,  ji1dan4 鸡蛋,  because I didn't say it right.  I try to tell the front desk that my room has a leak, lou4, 漏 and they think I am talking about the building, lou2, 楼. Maybe I should make a video of me doing it wrong for Chinesepod.

I do like the idea about a forum for us making suggestions.  Thanks for starting this.

Another few cents worth.  I really can't understand the ideas being put forward that videos do not enhance learning.

I ask, when you are listening to somebody speak, do you like to see them speak?  We all do.  Language is more than just words.  Facial expressions, other gestures, the background, knowing who esle is present all give context.  Learners comprehension is much greater if the context is given prior to listening.  I think mikeinewshot has expressed a similar view.  Do I have to get out my language acquisition text books to reference this point?

  I believe the discussion should be centred more on language learning effectiveness rather than whether or not some users only use Cpod to listen in their cars etc, although I understand that is relevent to a percentage of users.  Why is it that language colleges use video to enhance language learning - accompanied by appropriate questions?

I understand that production is very resource consuming from Cpod's point of view, but please don't stop doing them.  Most of the stuff you have done is useful, and I look forward to seeing what you can even come up with teaching character writing!  (revamped ;)

I'd suggest a video lesson on describing a room and things in it. For example: on the wall there is a picture, on the right of the picture there is a door, there are 2 mobile phones on the table, bla-bla-bla.

Bottomline: I think it's good to use video, when there is no other way. If you can use audio, don't use video.

I agree with what some other users have said, namely that interviews with real people (unscripted!) would be useful and motivational. Of course, the real language would have to be in digestible snippets, perhaps different videos aimed at different levels.

For example, the interviewer can ask a question such as "What do you do?", "What are your hobbies?", "What do you usually have for breakfast?" and then a series of short answers from people on the street can be shown, just as when they interview people on the street on the news.

I think seeing people speak Chinese that I can understand would be highly motivational. And it would reinforce the notion that Chinese is a real language that can be used with real people.

The video could start with the question presented on screen, while Ken and Jenny, for example, explain the question and prepare the listener by mentioning some of the words that will be used by the interviewees. Then they could discuss the answers they received and repeat them, then show the interviewees again.

The videos wouldn't involve much graphic animation work, just plain videos, preceded/followed by commentary while words are presented on screen.

Also, I found the video vocab tours a bit dull since they were mostly frozen shots of things. We could just as well have photos accompanying the lessons. The story lessons were excellent though! I loved Connie's recount of her trip to Beijing and Jenny's The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Very useful stuff! And I'm disappointed they've been put on hold.

Keep up the great work, you guys! I'm sure you'll find a successful formula for video...

Entertaining as videos may be (need to be), like Ken I don't think any one is clear as to their role in language learning.

Video production by students as orkelm explained is a different thing, as well as videos to set the scene (no pun intended) prior to a classroom discussion. But for self-learning, and personal interaction with a self-contained video?

Also consider the cost implication and usage constraints (can't watch while driving, cycling, as background)... Personally, I have problems with multi-channel input, e.g. graphic novels, I basically need to read them twice, once for enjoying the visuals, another time to read the captions and follow the plot. Conversely, when enthused by a movie, I wonder how much of the dialog really sticks, unless I watch it multiple times.

It's a little like learning Chinese characters, only relatively few are pictograms for which understanding etymology helps learning them. When you go past a certain number, you will rely on other ways to memorize them. So there may only be a limited number of situations where video adds value over audio.

So, as others have said, I would really move softly here, primarily exploring the role of video as a complement to, or a lead into the existing audio content rather than a completly separate channel. A teaser maybe, something that could replace the few hints given before lessons, and maybe closure of an audio story too...

Another optio would be for ChinesePod to encourage user-generated videos, set the rules and categories (length, topics, level, voice over/accent, relevance to specific lesson or post) and reward accordingly, even calling on a Chinese audience from other pods. With the number of people already in greater China, that could really be an interesting pilot project.

John

I think that powerful though video learning is, somewhere we need to build in some student interaction with the video. If the student is just sitting passively watching, then learning is  less effective.

So: SCENE: Customer goes to buy a bouquet of flowers.

ACTION:  Customer enters shop.

SHOPKEEPER : Hello. How can I help you?

FREEZE FRAME;Voice over “Say “I would like to buy a bouquet of flowers”

PAUSE VIDEO>while students says line.

ACTION>

CUSTOMER : I would like to buy a bouquet of flowers.

SHOPKEEPER: Do you have a price range in mind?

FREEZE FRAME :Voice over says “ Approx £25.”

PAUSE VIDEO> while students says line.

ACTION>

CUSTOMER: Approx £25.

Etc.

After the end of the dialogue then the video plays again but straight through with no pause.

ADVANTAGES

1.     Student is not passive.

2.     Video can be studio shot.

3.     Costs are in the editing. From one video you could get three Role Plays.

a)     The Customer b) The Shopkeeper c) Role Play  both parts. The student then has a choice on which RolePlay  they prefer.

4.     It is a scenario that could work with other situations Buying a coffee, Newspaper, Train Ticket etc.

5.     The student can check their pronunciation and  vocab immediately to model the native speaker or just pause the video themselves at that point. In the first run through they have no choice over how long a gap they get to fit in the given phrase.

Here is my bit:

I really really, really, really liked the video stories! The fact that these were shown 2 or 3 times with some pictures or actions to help with the context was great!  And we got to listen to some different native speakers.  I noticed that David's accent was different.

Dialogues have educational limitations on the kind of language used.  Stories necessitate the use of more clauses and time phrases, other connecting words, and the use of the equivalent of past tenses.  There really is a linguistic difference, and I appeal to you to consider this basis.  Please  widen your genres.  The video stories help to achieve this.

  Just for the record, like many other CPod users, I'm an ESL teacher teaching academic English to migrant students from many countries.

Pretty please - some more video stories - I've been waiting for the next one for ages.

do some stuff with freaky puppet radicals. There has to be a place to get those made cheap.

No , please don't do anything that goes out into the streets to hear different accents, that does not help at all and only serves to confuse. We are learning standard mandarin and it is a waste of time to try to have lessons those things so I disagree with Monica5. I say forget the video stuff and put more emphasis on Qing Wen.

I actually thought that aszabo's post on a conversation about Video and Community was great .

Basically it would be all about going out onto the streets and interviewing common people so that we can hear different accents and various ways to say the same things. Then Cpod’s hosts could comment on useful language points used by those 老百姓.

When I went to China I got a bit of a shock by the fact that, even if i was able to understand Cpod's upper intermediate lessons (and advance lessons to some extent) without much effort, I still found it quite hard to understand "real" people's conversations down on the streets. I guess it has something to do with the speaker's ability to use putonghua, but my point is that being able to hear those sorts of conversations from time to time could be a great help, specially for those of us who don't have the opportunity to live in China.

(Sorry if my English sounds weird. I'm not sure if I've expressed my ideas clearly)

The best use of video is to show us things that are important to see. For example, it might be neet to have a "tour" of a typical chinese store, street, restourant etc.

Like go to a store and teach us words we need to know there. Here is the dairy, and they types of milk. Here is the meat.

Go to a street, read some signs. Here is the subway, here is a bus sign with prices, here is a store for books, here is a food store.

Get what I mean? You can teach everyday stuff to people who have never been to China.

I certainly think Cpod should be experimenting with video to deliver language learning , but I also think that to be looking for a systematic approach is a tall order. Realistically we should be targeting video for those situation it can best deliver in. There is no doubt the visual stimulus re enforces learning .My suggestion would be a dialogue but with one person’s voice muted. So the student has to add their part in the gap. It being presumed that the situation is one where  there is normal behaviour, no unusual circumstances, and no misunderstandings between the participants. Then the video repeats with both parts audible so you can check how you did.

Thanks for the reply John.. I understand now.. You're right that they don't have specific learning goals in mind when they are created.. but I didn't see a lot of difference between them and the Vocab Tours.. except that the vocab tours were just a really fast and intense, visual vocab list with no cultural information...

I got basically nothing from them because they were just like looking at a dictionary of related words with no context to build proper memories with. I find the best learning comes from when I have context to associate the new vocab with.. I still remember 给我发票 easily because when I learned it, there was the context of getting the receipt from a taxi driver. Now I can use the 给我... chunk with everything.. but learning a whole bunch of nouns, with no context, to attach on the end of that chunk doesn't do me much good.

Because the commentary style videos contained the "before" and "after" context of the new vocab, the vocab became more memorable, as compared to a list of new vocab.. anyway.. may be a combination of the two could be used with more focus on the vocab side, with more emphasis on learning goals.

The "Ordering Food in a Restaurant" idea is one that gave me an idea of "supplementary" or "expansion" videos. So rather than creating videos that are by themselves different to the rest of the lessons on ChinesePOD, maybe the videos could relate to existing series of lessons like the The Hungry Traveler series. You've obviously put a lot of time and effort into creating the "The Hungry Traveler" series, and while the shows themselves can be listened to separately without needing to listen to the ones before, there are some similarities between the lessons in the series. So to add to this series, a video could be created to flesh out the whole context in a visual way that audio just can't do by itself. Obviously you don't want to waste precious time and resources on just any topic that looks good at the time, and not evey lesson should have its own "video expansion" but for those tried and tested lesson series, it would make sense to expand on them with video.

The "video commentary" can be found on YouTube:  Here is one.  From there you should be able to find the others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKVS9NlXzKg

Where are these video commentary lessons you're talking about? Have they been removed?

I love the bumpers you're referring to btw,but I realise as I haven't been around as long it's a less valid viewpoint.

Here is the photo I was talking about..

Hello everyone,

  Just figured I would put my two cents in as well. An idea I had for possible use of video was to make video dialogues. The videos would be short, one minute or so. The first time through would be the actors(esses) presenting the dialogue in an appropriate setting. The camera would be positioned so the scene would be clearly seen, and dialogue acted out in context. The second time would present a closeup as such that the viewer could read the lips, and note physical characteristics. The third time through would be the character shifting thing similar to what was done in The Radical Show, something I felt was strong about those videos.

  An icon could be added as shown in the photo found in my next post, the red arrow is pointing to where a new icon could be added.

   Don't get me wrong, I am not passionate about seeing this happen I just wanted to take a moment to present this so that perhaps the development team might throw this around at the next brainstorming session, and perhaps come up with something that may work. I feel that this idea is simple, feasible, and a good utilization of video technology.

amesburygeorge

It seems we sort of agree, see my comment above.

Hello everyone,

Just figured I would put my two cents in as well.

     An idea I had for possible use of video was to make video dialogues. The videos would be short, one minute or so. The first time through would be the actors(esses) presenting the dialogue in an appropriate setting. The camera would be positioned as such that the viewer could read the lips, and note physical characteristics. The second time through would be the character shifting thing similar to what was done in The Radical Show, something I felt was strong about those videos.

Hello everyone,

Just figured I would put my two cents in as well.

    An idea I had for possible use of video was to make video dialogues. The videos would be short, one minute or so. The first time through would be the actors(esses) presenting the dialogue in an appropriate setting. The camera would be positioned as such that the viewer could read the lips, and note physical characteristics. The second time through would be the character shifting thing similar to what was done in The Radical Show, something I felt was strong about those videos.

Hello everyone,

Just figured I would put my two cents in as well.

   An idea I had for possible use of video was to make video dialogues. The videos would be short, one minute or so. The first time through would be the actors(esses) presenting the dialogue in an appropriate setting. The camera would be positioned as such that the viewer could read the lips, and note physical characteristics. The second time through would be the character shifting thing similar to what was done in The Radical Show, something I felt was strong about those videos.

I accidentally posted before finishing what I was saying so I will retry.

Well yes I do like the videos at http://www.ctcfl.ox.ac.uk/Chinese/lessons.htm.

I think they do add something.  It makes the situation more real and gives the context. I think this is very important to make the language come alive.  With sound only podcasts, you have to imagine the context and frankly it is hard enough to understand these strange Chinese sounds without more demands on the brain! 

Language is best learned in real situations and at the risk of repeating myself, these videos help to make the situations seem real.

I think it also helps to see people when they speak.  Surely we like to do that in real life - it is much better to meet someone face to face than listen to use the telephone for example.  Why?  Because the quality of communication is better.

So I do think videos adds something. It is the difference between watching a film (movie for you ammericans!) and listening a radio production.  It makes the language come alive.

I realise it is much more expensive though.

Incidentally, I don't mind those sound bites.  I would urge not to waste your resources removing them when you could use them to improve quality in other areas.  I think we have some grumpy people!  (I have been know to be grumpy on occasions too)

However much potential video may have, I honestly don't use it (cpod, tv, or others) much for my studies.  Unlike a podcast, I can't watch video when I'm driving or just out and about.  Videos just don't fit into how I use ChinesePod.

I only hope that CPod will screen future videos with some user group before releasing to whole audience. 

I actually don't mind the audio bumpers at the end of the podcasts.  The end of the lesson is clear, so it doesn't take much effort to skip over the bumper if desired.  Now, the "Do you understand the words coming out of my mouth?" bumper at the beginning of the lessons needed to go, and it did a long time ago.

@everyone

Thanks so much for all of your input - discussion is healthy and its the only way to move forward.

I've taken care of the end of lesson sound-bytes as per your suggestions, however due to the lead time on podcast production this change should be in effect as of mid to late February.

Matt

Oh, and we hear you about the little audio bumpers at the end of the pocasts.  We work really hard to put out excellent podcasts every day, so we'd hate to be ending that experience with a moment of annoyance on your part.  We will remove/change them.

Light487,

The video commentary lessons were fine, but they're not as effective at teaching vocabulary as the Vocab Tours. Their main function is cultural commentary. We do tons of cultural commentary throughout all our podcasts, and even though video adds a valuable dimension, that particular style doesn't fill a particularly urgent need.

Some people really like them, but I'd say the overall response was "lukewarm."  At the time they were exciting because they were ChinesePod's first foray into video content.

light 487,

I apologize if the comment you posted wasn't aimed at my comment. But if it was:

1) Since John posted this discussion in the first place, isn't it really John's call if my post about "video is not effective" is unwarranted? Aren't you just another paying subscriber like me? You're not an cpod employee are you? I'm willing to go by cpod staff about appropriateness of comments, and if you're staff, then ok.

2) Even if my comment is unwarranted, it will be ignored if its off topic and no one really cares what I have to say.  But I was only expressing my opinion because I took John at his word about "welcoming feedback"

3) I know from previous feedback I and others have given, that once cpod staff have made a decision, it's unlikely that i'm going to say something that's hasn't already been said, and re-opening this thread to "eliminating video" is not my intent, but more likely not likely to be acted on by cpod management. Can't you let it go at that? My comment was already ignored by everybody else, including cpod staff.  But if cpod staff was irked, they could have taken a number of actions, including deleting my post, and emailing me personally as to why. No comment from you would have been necessary.

mikeinewshot, you liked them? I didn't think they added anything in particular. Just filming people acting out a dialogue doesn't make any difference to me (though sometimes if there are more than two people in a dialogue, I don't know which person is speaking).  I quite liked some of the grammar exercises though.

Urbandweller, I think John mentioned somewhere else that it was really difficult to get useful footage when making the vocab tours, which is a shame because I also liked them.

i agree about scrapping Aric's old bumpers...the "cave mandarin into rave mandarin" cracked me up the first 10 times...now its kind of annoying! using the same ones over and over kind of gets old...

Get creative and make some new bumpers for your podcasts. I think that kind of stuff helps to keep things light and funny.

also, i really liked the videos tour things of the markets etc...why arent you still doing those??

Have you seen the use of video here?:

http://www.ctcfl.ox.ac.uk/Chinese/lessons.htm

I think it is effective

agreed.. I would not miss Aric's part at all.

(second chance ?)

I agree with the "RJ Berki's view". If Cpod doesn't have the resources today for quality video lessons, it should mainly focus on the audio lessons that made its reputation.

More advices :

- Get rid of Aric's closedown self-promotions. It's only funny the first time but not after more than 2000 podcasts.

- Feel free to surprise us sometimes with a new format or new voices.

- A short audio-blog like "Princess Remy" would be more than welcome. If you give it for free (like the basic lessons) and (above all) bring some interesting/polemical subjects in it, lots of new "native chinese" poddies will spark down here to debate.

I agree with the "RJ Berki's view". If Cpod don't have the resources today for quality video lessons, it should mainly focus on the audio lessons that made its reputation.

More advices :

- Get rid of Aric's closedown self-promotions. It's only funny the first time but not after more than 2000 podcasts.

- Feel free to surprise us sometimes with a new format or new voices.

- A short audio-blog like "Princess Remy" (may it rest in peace) would be more than welcome. If you give it for free (like the basic lessons) and (above all) bring some interesting/polemical subjects in it, lots of new "native chinese" poddies will spark down here to debate.

This thread is not about whether or not we want to have video.. video is something that's obviously going to be done.. no point turning this into another "video and the community". I believe this thread is about creating direction for the video.. a vision for the video content..

Before you post here with "I don't want video" responses because the previous video submissions were "sub-par", please re-read John's post. Let's forget about the failures in so much as they have been acknowledged as failures and now concentrate on learning from those mistakes.

I'd really like to see some responses with creative ideas and brain-storming conversations in an attempt to come to some mutually beneficial direction that the video should take.

Considering how many comments are generated on the video lessons themselves, it's interesting that there are relatively fewer comments here about them. 

My take was that video quality lesson seemed to be mixed, and extremely context dependent.  I felt you already had to have some familiarity with the subjects in the video, otherwise you never really were sure what objects were being referred to in the video. So I was in the "scrap it completely" camp.  But I would also note that there were people that seemed to rave about video, but then they didn't really quantify what they got out of it beyond "I learn better visually".  I would have said, it's ok to give them video lessons regularly, but then I realise that creating video lessons for them means less cpod resources available to create other content, or to improve the site in other ways.  In that regard, I say scrap video until a lesson suggestion list is created, and other items that have been suggested have been included in the site. Thanks John.

Any chance of getting more stories in audio format? I liked them a lot.

I'm never sure about the tooting of one's own horn, but I thought you might like to see the way that some of my students have been using video.

To be brief, in class they write on a certain topic, then they study video clips of native speakers talking about that same topic, then the students create a video skit on that topic.  The video is then posted on our course blog, together with transcripts, translation, analysis, comments, etc.  (Note that the Fall 08 students were extremely creative.)

http://kelmbrazil.wordpress.com/

I believe the challenge for ChinesePod, unlike my students who use video to produce and practice language, you are coming at it from the opposite direction.

I've made several comments about the old "commentary" format (and even included examples of what I am talking about) whenever the discussion of video comes up but I never seem to get a solid answer as to why these types of videos were scrapped and why it's not an acceptable format in the current environment. I'm not saying that it should be the only idea that is looked at, nor that the videos should all be like that.. I'm just wondering why..

I got a lot out of those videos, particularly the one I like to use as an example which is the "Hair Salon" one, and feel strongly enough about it to keep raising the issue.. so I apologise if I sound like a broken record in regards to that but I am all for the idea of video if it can be done right and since that format worked "for me", it is obvious that I am going to keep mentioning it until I get a solid acknowledgment either way as to its validity.

I'll try again. I think we should reaffirm that we do audio lessons around here. I think we can experiment with video but only release when it has reached a certain standard of quality.

As yet, I have not seen a systematic approach to language learning through video out there that I think is really good. There are lots of excellent short videos - such as the ones produced here by SpanishPod and some of the ones we've done at CPod were good, too - but I'm talking about an entire course in video-based language learning. I think no-one has figured out a systematic approach to that. 

I just deleted a comment that was nasty and personal. Why does video raise the tepmperature like this?

(Oops, the system also deleted my own previous comment!)

How is it that JP and SpanishPod have created such fun, engaging videos in the same building?  "Cooking with Tabasco" allows students to hear Spanish spoken at a normal speed in a context that gives plenty of hints and crutches to keep even a beginning listener following the flow of the speech and picking up words.  "La Clave" is a truly beautiful series of videos with professional animation, smooth transitions and _excellent_ content.  JP is a natural teacher who knows how to organize and synthesize information effectively, and both shows even throw in a little humor every 20 seconds or so.

Instead, CP is stuck with John Pasden wandering around the streets of Shanghai, mumbling with two people who look like they have brain damage.  Why such a difference in quality from the same company?

For me, the key is that we keep producing the very best audio lessons that we can. That's what we are and that, for the most part, is what we should continue to do.

Video is an entirely different medium and I have yet to see any truly excellent language learning video lessons, anywhere. It has taken us 3 years to get where we are with audio - and there's a ton still to learn - so I relize the difficulty of creating truly great video. (The pedagogical issues could be overcome, but the production ones are very significant.)

So, I say we keep focused on our core activity but comntinue to experiment with video. However, we really have to ensure that the video that we do publish reaches certain standards and gets the time and resources that is required and meets a high level of quyality.