Upgrading Old Lessons

I am not sure but it seems to me that this post is where my troubles began. This announcement seems to imply that it was decided to abandon the concept of teaching Chinese in a concise and linear fashion. Instead a Chinese buffet of education was introduced. 

I am willing to concede that it is my lack of intellectual aptitude that has left me confused and aimless. So with that established can someone point me to a specific order to approach these lessons!  

After tooling around the site for awhile, I finally found portions of answers about a "production schedule" for rereleasing old lessons as new ones.  Not sure how the community was asked if this was something the community wanted, since there wasn't a giant posting asking what the community thought.  Or maybe there was, and I missed it. 

dave, You wrote: Isn't the point to let the older users know which lessons are back and to hell with the new users since everything is new to them anyway? No, the point is to let the veteran users know what's happening with the older lessons, because they may have attachments to those older lessons, and they helped create some awesome content in the comments. "To hell with new users" is never our attitude.

I think it would be FUN to do a series of pod-casts, highlighting each of the famous Supergirls.

(gee, maybe I should reinvestigage the idea of proofreading my messages before I post them)

John, Jenny, Ken:

If all the old message strings in the comments will be deleted, then so will my recent post on the "Supergirl" lesson thread professing my love and admiration for the greatest Supergirl EVER...纪敏佳 (Ji Min Jia)!!!

Hey, I've got a fantastic idea! Maybe you can do a segment in the Supergirl podcast about all the winners, and those who went on to make something of themselves later. Like 纪敏佳 Ji Min Jia's song over the closing credits of the film, "The Banquet" (夜宴).

Perhaps you could even do a separate podcast about each of the important Supergirls (and that wouldn't necessarily be limited to the 1st place winners, kind of like our American Idol, where Clay Aiken went on to become a huge star and 99.99% of Americans say "Reuben WHO?)

Supergirl 超级女声 really show that captured the imagination of the whole country. I think it would be to do a few pod-casts highlighting each of the famous Supergirls.

John, maybe on the Chinesepod homepage under "Latest News" you could list the lessons that are about to be "put to sleep". Give us a countdown such as :

I'm Hungry 5 days left, then 4 days left, 3 days left, etc.

The number of days could be flashing to get our attention, one last chance to listen or download.

Keep updating it until the lesson is finally "put to pasture" and it falls off the list. Just an idea. When our kids were young and our pets had to be "put to sleep" we would tell the kids that they went to live in Mexico. Maybe our podcasts could find a nice warm place to rest. Any suggestions? 5 days until "I'm Hungry" goes to Hainan Island. Ha.

Jennyzhu, I love those early lessons with you and Ken. How about the one where Ken tells the same "na4li" 那里 joke again and you tell him you've heard it before...many times. I smile every time I hear that and it is this banter that will be lost to our new Newbies. Your fans felt closer to you when we got a glimpse into your childhood, your life, your relationship with Ken. Yes the remakes will be nice and slick and well produced, but the "oldies but goodies" have their own eloquence. I was glad I was there then and I'm glad I'm still here now. I guess at my age I'm entitled to be a little nostalgic.

Over the past 3 months I have gone through all of the newbie and elementary lessons, and found that the discussion comments have had additional vocabulary and cultural discussions that would be a shame to lose. Have you considered extracting useful information and contain it in a single entry by a ChinesePod employee? Much of the best part is already corrected in comments by various CP individuals. The links to various other sites and tools in the comments greatly enhance the learning process, and that would also be lost. The sad part will be the loss of the spirit exhibited by the interaction of the user community and CP during its evolution.

Throughout the lessons errors have accumulated in the tab sections. The minor ones are easy to tolerate, but some are serious enough to be distracting. Comments pointing them out tend to be ignored, or more likely, never noticed. Monitoring the old lessons and maintaining them would help. Redoing the earliest lessons addresses only part of the problem.

The entire library of lessons is an invaluable resource and it is good to learn that you are concerned about the totality, not just the ongoing lessons.

I've been steadily going though the Newbies. Certainly haven't been through all of them, but I've listened to a lot. I agree there is a noticeable difference in quality. But even so, the lessons served a purpose for me. I don't normally listen to the same lesson over and over again, so redoing the early ones will give me a good excuse to listen to them again, and I will more than likely learn something new with each one. I think it is a great idea to upgrade them, and I'll look forward to their release. In the meantime, I have several hundred other lessons to work on....

Yup, I'm building a library in my head of "Chinglish" terms like that。Another is “我的鼻子在跑.“

Doc: Is that "your two cents"?

我的两分钱。。。Great initiative, John. Quality above quantity.

I've always wondered what you guys would do (if anything) about those old lessons. I'm glad you're planning to make the improvements.

Newbies Redux - the director's cut!

Jenny, what you've been doing never seemed amateurish. :) Try listening to other podcasts that attempt to do what you do. But thanks for all the hard work, and your enthusiasm, for this rebirth!

(honestly, I might have been like, "whaaat? we have to do all these lessons over agaaaaain? :P)

Jenny,

but the new generation of poddies will never learn about your work with Arnold Schwarzenegger (!), confessions about your old walkman, or diverse confessions about your childhood...

Historic documents.

Finally, rebirth! A second chance in life! The sketchy and amateurish podcasts will soon be a thing of the past. In fact, Ken and I re-recorded a few lessons today. Besides the audio quality and our presentation,we also dramatically altered the dialogues (into realistic language and context) while sticking to the old useful topic. Really made me appreciate the CPod approach that we've established by now. I also re did the 'dialogue 1st time, 2nd time...' both in English and Chinese.

I would agree with AuntySue that this is going to be primarily a Newbie issue, as with RJB I would happily listen to refreshed lessons as new lessons and all the old lessons would remain in my iTunes library anyway. But Newbies may get very confused if there was a continuous stream of lessons that they were working on suddenly being dropped and replaced by something 75% different. Depending on how many lessons are involved, have you considered a "big bang" approach? For example, wait until you have remastered the 50 or so lessons then with one week notice use all methods of communication to let everybody know that newbie lessons 1-50 will be dropped and replaced by 50 new lessons with advice on how to manage the change for different systems, iPod, iTunes, MP3 player, PC etc.

John

Calligraphy is a classic. Every now and then I go back and listen to calligraphy to benchmark my improvement. It remains a target to aspire to.

Using Conversations to keep people up to date is problematic. Things scroll off and disappear forever. Also it's a small noisy subgroup of users who watch it all the time, and others might feel the same need to be kept up to date.

People need one place to look for information, preferably not something transient that's based on blog software. Having said that, maybe the Praxis Blog is the right place, since it scrolls so slowly these days.

The most important people to keep in the loop are the newbies, where most of the initial work is going to be, and they're unlikely to be hanging out here hearing all this. And the most important newbies are the ones who have just arrived, listening to their first couple of podcasts or embarking on the beginning of their free trial. They cannot be given any surprises, they'd simply get the wrong idea about what kind of place this is.

So for the old timer squeaky wheel in-group and the less social but inquisitive types, I'd suggest using both the blog and the Forum. The beauty of the forum is that even if you don't visit it for weeks, it still comes up with all the posts that have been entered since your last visit, nothing scrolls into oblivion.

For newbies, well that depends on what is being updated when and how. Maybe a red-text lesson comment from Admin a day before the change begins, and erased after the change. It depends. Although we veterans see little substance in a newbie lesson, if it's your first ever lesson you might spend a whole week working on it, and you don't want part of it to change mid-study while you sit there wondering why you don't get it.

I'm with sebire on this. My friendship with Aric aside, I really dig his outros. The man is good.

Can we keep the outro about the gruntled employees? That always makes me laugh.

John,

you said: "Let me just say that I'm really glad to see all the user support for this initiative. I was worried about strong resistance, "

Involving the users before a change as opposed to after the fact, does make a difference. Besides, its a good idea. Go for it. Im not going to worry about saving the old lessons, I am assuming the new ones will be better and address the same material. I actually think there will be some benefit to hitting the same material again in a refreshed form. As for those who want to save the old lessons and keep track of the changes, I think a conversation post issued by Cpod listing those lessons slated for remodeling that week would be sufficient. I would simply mark the re-done lessons "revision 2" or "rev 2" at the end of the title. Im with Brent, why keep the old mp3's on line? Just more confusion. Actually everything is already archived on your new DVD. Why dont you offer this for sale as well as a signing bonus? Having one of these would be the easiest way to make sure you have copies of all the original material if that is important to you.

-RJ

-RJ

Isn't the point to let the older users know which lessons are back and to hell with the new users since everything is new to them anyway?

If it's a new user they wouldn't understand the halo and probably wouldn't notice its presence while the older users would be able to understand what it means.

calkins,

Hmmm, I doubt we can do the e-mail thing. Too many mass emails will get us marked as spam.

The MP3s will remian online simply because they don't affect anything by staying up on our S3 hosting. We easily can take them down if there is a need.

dave,

We don't want to mark the lessons as "re-recorded" because to any relatively new user, it's indistinguishable for other new lessons, and would just be confusing. In fact, I'm sure that many of the long-time users won't recognize the new lessons either.

Henning,

Thanks for the suggestions. Totally right about the outros.

And do new outros. The ones Aric produced were fine once, but now after listen to them ca. 4000 times...听腻了。 Let Amber & Clay handle that task.

John,

most of the first Intermediates with you are fine - if relabeled to be "Upper Intermdediate" (which wasn't yet invented in the former days). The one you mentioned is definately one of those.

I would personally do 2 things when re-releasing. The first would be to start a conversation before it is released--as you suggested. The second would be to put a halo or unusually colored border around the picture of the lesson on the home page (and lesson page) to show people it's a remastered lesson.

John,

What if an e-mail went out to everyone saying that Lesson "X" will be deleted...within the e-mail, have a link to a Conversation forum for that deleted lesson (as you mention in your #2)...and maybe a link to the new lesson that is replacing the old one.

Also, I'm confused as to why the old mp3's will remain online. If you can't get to the old (deleted) lesson page, how will you get to the old mp3's?

Let me just say that I'm really glad to see all the user support for this initiative. I was worried about strong resistance, which would put me in a bad situation, as lesson quality is my domain. It looks now like the big question is what the best way to notify you all of the changes is. Unfortunately, setting up a special page for it is not a very realistic option for tech reasons. Marking the old lessons on their own lesson pages doesn't help a whole lot either, because how are you going to find the lesson that's about to disappear? It'll be gone before you know about it. Some ideas: 1. An ongoing Conversations post. 2. A new Conversations post for each lesson that's getting the axe (also gives a permanent forum for discussion and reminiscing). 3. A "chopping block" tag added to lessons that are "next up" for deletion. (The lessons displayed when you click on the tag link would keep changing.) Any other ideas?

mikeinewshot,

You're right. All early lessons, including Elementary and Intermediate, are possible targets for re-recording.

I'm not just talking "pre-John" era, either... Some of my early podcasts need work too (Calligraphy, anyone??).

ratatouille, You wrote: Is this a recognition that their is a ceiling within the newbie level - do a couple of dozen and jump to elementary so quality is more the focus here than pushing up the numbers? Yes, basically. Newbie has the smallest subset of the Chinese language to work with. If we were ever "done" with the lessons, it would have the fewest. Does it already have enough? You could argue that it does, although there is always room for improvement. So, yes... it's all about quality.

RJ, You wrote: My take so far is that you will re-do and then re-release some old lessons as new lessons, and these will be mixed in with the completely new releases thereby slowing down the pace of actual new material. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Starting today we've already begun the editing and re-recording process, and to be honest, you might not even recognize some of the older lessons when they are re-released. Titles change, dialogues are altered to be more natural, etc. What's going to happen is that the lessons will disappear from the archive (and search results), but the actual MP3 files will remain online. The redone lessons will be released as new podcasts, and really, they will be entirely different podcasts. Some of them are 75% different in the dialogue alone, while others a mere 20% or so. I plan to remove old lessons only when the new lesson is about to be released, so it won't happen in a big chunk. But yes, this does mean that the Newbie total lesson count is going to slow its upward climb for a while. That's OK, though. We have enough Newbie lessons.

In new numbering that is lessons upto C0132 roughly speaking

Although I have a great affection for many of the old lessons the level of difficulty has changed. For the intermediate lessons, using the original numbering system, lessons C1 to C40 had much simpler texts.

Xiaohu,

Those are good points you make. Getting the detail around pronounciation is important and it is an opportunity to make the lessons tighter - less dramatic intros and keeping a pace and rhythm consistent with later lessons.

Also it is important, since these lessons are the first impression of Cpod for those newest newbies progressing through the lessons sequentially. Also it is an opportunity to do a little rewriting, to tweak the lessons slightly to ensure the vocab is at newbie level but also to keep they rest of us interested in something old as we revisit it.

Will the targeted lesson now carry a disclaimer until they have been displaced with the more up to date versions?

ratatouille:

I wouldn't say they are "recycling". Remember, this is above all an educational institution. The lessons here need to be consistent, and each download needs to measure up to a certain level accross the board.

When delving back into the archives of 800 lessons, if say 200 of those don't meet the standard that is set forth in the later lessons, then I absolutely agree that they should either be cut from the site, or remade.

When Chinesepod was young, they were just finding their way. There were many striking differences between the format, material, sound quality and the educational system they used back in the "olden days" of Chinesepod as compared with now.

Also an important thing to note is that Jenny (being from Shanghai and Mandarin being, let's say her SECOND mother tongue), back in 2005 she had pronunciation issues. The lack of -ng sound for example, which is common with Chinese people. (it's perfectly okay in everyday conversation, but not when you are putting yourself up as a standard for all new learners to follow)

In 2005 her pronunciation didn't measure up to the standard Beijing Mandarin we are all used to. For new users to go back into those old lessons and use them as a model of pronunciation I think would be doing a disservice.

Since John Pasden has come on board I think the level of quality of this site has improved. John seems to have a great attention to detail of every aspect of this site. Also I think just gradually Ken, Jenny et al have learned what works and what doesn't in terms of educating through these podcasts.

The way I see it is that these older lessons will become new material again. If I understand John correctly, they would even be reforming the dialogues to become the same format as the new ones, so even though we would be covering some of the same material, each podcast would include new words, phrases to be learned, new and improved dialogues and just overall be much more enjoyable to listen to.

I can't wait!

I've been listening to the older lessons, and I can definitely tell a difference! I'd prefer a slow-down of new Newbie/Elementary lessons (given how many there are) to make sure everything is the same high quality.

Should Chinesepod be commended for recycling?

Have we gone full circle? Is it perfectionism? Vanity?

Is this a recognition that their is a ceiling within the newbie level - do a couple of dozen and jump to elementary so quality is more the focus here than pushing up the numbers?

Listening to an older lesson - the differences compared to the newer lessons made them seem newer! Although Ken does meander a little and the unique chemistry that has grown between our two hosts was a little less developed. And the audio was a more "vinyl" just like the golden oldies!

Just in the past week I've started listening to some of the older lessons, and the difference is quite striking. The quality, flow, and Chinese to English ratio has all improved dramatically. Not having been with Cpod from the beginning, I don't have the nostalgia issues.

Brilliant idea - I support you 100%. I never listen to lessons done before 2006, because the quality is so poor compared to the amazing standard of more recent lessons.

One thing I though about the old lessons was they were a bit dull and boring, very unlike more recent lessons.

Thanks for telling us what you're doing - it's nice to know what's going on. :) Please find some way of telling us which old lessons have been updated, so that I can make sure I listen to them.

Im with TaiPan, not a problem for me. Just like to know whats coming.

RJ

Great idea, i look forward to the new and improved old and stale.

My take so far is that you will re-do and then re-release some old lessons as new lessons, and these will be mixed in with the completely new releases thereby slowing down the pace of actual new material. Is that correct?

-RJ

Actually, I think it's a good idea to upgrade the older lessons. I find that I tend to use more recent lessons, and avoid very early lessons as the difference can be rather marked.

I like this idea a lot but as Mark pointed out--I hope it doesn't negatively affect the quality of your newer stuff. How do you plan to notify people when lessons have been redone?

It's funny, just yesterday I was listening to some of the very first newbie lessons, and I could not help noticing the remarkable gap between those, and the current quality level, which is always very good indeed, and running long since, up to now.

So, yes, I think it is a very good idea renewing all the old material, and I bet it will be a chance for a new interesting discovery.

谢谢!

Michele.

@AuntySue

In my innocence I had stumbled upon great unfolding events.

For me all episodes are new -- so I have no emotional attachements yet ;-)

I know they have to go, but I will miss them, just like Aric and Colleen and Eileen and now Aggie. They are Chinesepod nostalgia. They were the stepping stones to making this program great. They are just like watching the old Saturday Night Lives. You remember where you were when. When will they be...er...done away with?

You haven't started already have you? ;-) Someone's complaining that lesson 7 has no exercises (error #1009) and I notice it has no expansion either.

@henning:

Yes, this revision accompanies the project of "Fixing" all "fixless" lessons. We won't re-record supplementary audio if we're re-doing a lesson; we'll just treat the lesson as a new one.

And yes, all old lessons are possible targets, but the earliest ones will be the focus of our attention first.

@mark:

The Newbie re-recordings will count as new Newbie lessons, so the "new lesson count" will have to slow down a bit, but we will continue to create fresh new material.

@billgloveruk:

It's going to start with lesson 0007 and slowly move upward. Expect quite a few of those lessons 0007-0050 to disappear, only to reappear as a new Newbie lesson.

Thanks for the support, everyone!

Henning:

太好了!

I loved all those old lessons with Le Guan and (finally found that old lesson in the index), Jeff (or is it Geoff?). I'm glad those will remain intact!

John this is a great idea. Aggie and Vera put together a practice schedule for me which included a number of old lessons and I was amazed at the difference in quality. Differences in audio quality aside, the old lessons do have a certain charm in that they often feel more intimate and human. Still, I'll be looking forward to the upgrades.

Maybe you could mark the lessons that are going to be targeted for upgrade so that users don't leave additional comments and have a chance to extract any useful information.

Will this affect the production of new lessons?

John,

especially needy are some of the very first Intermediates:

- You Look Exhausted!

- Weather, Man

- City Comparison

that are only at today's Elementry level (if not below) with a handful of sentences repeated 5 times.

Also lessons like

- Chinese Celebrity -Bruce Lee

- China’s Supergirl

that were so much fun when I listened to them first need some compressing. Too much English banter.

Nevertheless: Please remind Ken that he promised us to reveal his secret Guanxi-teqnique list one day (in the "Learning About Chinese ’Guan Xi’" lesson). Some here have not forgot even after the lesson has been taken "off air" for almost a year now :)

Will this revision go along with the Fixing all fixless lessons project?

Hi Xiaohu,

I bet none of the currently available Advanced lessons will be affected as they were introduced relatively late and the lesson format is already close to today's (except for the review questions that have been cut dropped recently). That includes all lessons with Le Guan and the Chaplin one.

John:

Nothing could excite me more than upgrading those older lessons and incorporating them into the new format!

Now that Chinesepod has hit the 800 lesson mark, there is plenty of content available on the site for those of all levels to keep us busy for months at a time.

I have been thinking for a while that the old lessons have been neglected (many of them won't load at all), and it would be wonderful to have all perfect pronunciation, and a standardization of the material.

PLUS another great advantage is that it can become the re-debut of those old lessons, making them fresh, exciting and new again!

But I'll be sure to keep my old file of the "Chaplin" lesson though, that male co-host (I can't even remember his name right now), that guest-hosted one time was a RIOT!

I wholeheartedly support your decision John, I hope other Poddies will do the same.

Thank you, long over due.

It's easy for me to say that, because I already have all the old ones on my own "those were the days" nostalgia CD, and occasionally relive the moments, laughing and weeping over them between interludes of Cat Stevens, The Seekers, and Scott Joplin.