always a 老外?

wallace,

可能是我英语水平有限，表达不是很清楚，抱歉”。

不要抱歉啊！你的英语水平很好哦！就是你写的那段话的意思，我不明白。他们不是人吗？

应该写“严重的问题”。还有什么问题？我的中文很差

扬中的问题

什么意思？。。。

的确发现好多语法不通顺诶。。

关于文化，我又思考了一下，尝试着解释一下，仅代表我个人的观点。

中国是个既古老又现代的国家：

一方面现代的中国迫切的希望能融入世界，因此中国人在遇到外国人的时候首先想到的是用英语交流，不希望外国人觉得自己和他们不一样，不希望外国人觉得与自己之间有隔阂（其实和你们上面的感受是一样的）。

另一方面当中国人真正融入到了西方又会开始迷茫，想要追溯自己的文化，自己的“根”，因此在中国人身上又表现出了文化的独特性，有时候可能让外国人觉得中国有点“排外”。

这与中国的历史有关，历史太长我就不解释了。

我也很乐意和大家探讨这个问题，希望能对大家了解中国有些帮助。

我的经验和小虎的同样的。而且我的态度也是。我觉得 “20 Questions" 英文之叫做 ”Icebreakers." 

@miantiao

你是不理解“自己人”的意思还是不理解我刚才那句话的意思？

可能是我英语水平有限，表达不是很清楚，抱歉。

我的意思是即使像日本人或韩国人那样和中国人有着相同的肤色，中国人也很难将他们看成“自己人”。

自己人的意思就是和自己一样的人，也可以理解为自己圈子里的人。

希望你能看懂我的中文。

@andrew_c

我还是用中文和你交流吧，你中文真的很棒！

我觉得你对你遇到的一些现象有些夸大的理解了，文化的不同使任何国家的人对待其他不同国家的人的时候，都带有一些好奇，出于尊重当中国人遇到一个外国人的时候，他当然想用英文和对方交流，因为他根本不了解对方中文水平如何，我想一个美国人遇到中国人也肯定想用中文和中国人交流，如果他的中文够好，就像你一样。

至于你认为很难融入到中国人之中，总感觉自己是个外国人，我认为这个是很难解决的，我之前也说了，中国人在国外都很难让自己觉得自己是当地人一样，也许是文化差异，也许是归属感？这个我也解释不清楚。

我是个地地道道的中国人，我从来没到过国外，上面都是我作为一个中国人的一些理解，可能对也可能不对，仅仅是我的个人观点。

不过说实话如果不是你们这样讲，很少有中国人会知道你们有这样的感受，我希望能通过我的一些解释能帮助你找到答案。

我很希望能交到外国朋友，就像你想交中国朋友一样，当然同时也想提高自己的英文水平，我很感激能看到你写的这些东西，下次当我遇到外国人的时候我会先询问他用中文还是用英文交流。

谢谢。

andrew_c

我很久没来到这里，真可惜我没有亲眼看到你的突飞猛进的进步。你现在的中文可好了！我不得不夸你，你写文章写得挺深奥的。我上一次看到，你那个时候的汉语水平不是中级吗？你怎么这么快就越过一个班级了呢？你现在的中文真棒，比我好多拉！好神奇啊！

1. Do people who know you speak Chinese still speak English to you anyway because it is weird speaking Chinese with a foreigner (even if it is a conversation where everyone else is speaking Chinese, yourself included)?

我很久没遇到这种情况。我发现过了几分钟和我用中文说话中国朋友忘记我是高鼻子的老外而用中文跟我交流。

2. Is there always the 20 questions every time you meet someone new and open your mouth in Chinese?

中国人初步的反应当然是好奇心的。他们都问我差不多一样的问题，不如，“你学中国多久了”，“你为什么对我们中国的语言感兴趣呢？”，“住过中国吗？” 等。

我觉得我永远不腻烦回答这些问题因为这样至少有打破隔阂的话题可谈嘛！

有一次我给麒麟电视 （这是一个中文有线电台服务）的热线打电话付会费。接我电话的服务员一直跟我说中国话而且没有什么反应。她连确定我的英文名也没有反应！

那时刻我对自己的中文非常满足！

andrew

好久没来了，我刚刚看了前面的讨论。

我不知道这里的中国人有多少是生活在国内的。不过你的中文确实不错。如果需要标准，那么你日常的交流已经完全可以了。

还有你好像你遇到的都是在美国的中国人，这点我不太确定。这里我对我的观点有所保留，我认为可能是在国外的中国人有文化上受排斥的感觉，会本能的聚到一起，组成小团体，这样对那么的文化或者说是白人的排斥心理会有所影响。会自然的区分你们之间的差距，而且这种文化和种族上的差距会在不知不觉中放大。可能我说的有点像是种族说。不过我没有带有种族主义的观点，我认为这是文化对自己本身的一种保护措施。

上面的观点只是我个人的见解。可以讨论。

至于你觉得人们对你有区别，也许是，认为你一个在美国本土没来过中国的美国人有这么好的中文（就你的书面表达来评价，不知道你的口语水平如何）和他们原来认为的美国人说中文的印象有很大的反差。

最后，和中国人交朋友你可以试试看中国人的方法，那样可能会更好的让他们接受。这里我突然想到对你的不同可能正是因为你中文的原因，你和别的美国人（那些不会中文的美国人）不一样，我指你的中文水平，所以被区分开来了。

就说这么多。我还有英语考试，痛苦的英语啊！！%>_<%

知道了

我知道，所以我没有回答你。

andrew,

我不是问你啊！ 我问的是wallacehua.

cindy,

史度~hi`

怎么能这么想呢？~

中国人是很愿意和外国朋友们说中文的。

比如我就是~

首先，我会用中文给外国朋友说。

如果这位外国朋友不知道这个中文的意思。

我就会用英文解释给他。

哈哈~这样我的英文不久也提高了吗！

这是相辅相成的！

we can teach each other.

of course ~help each other.

 actually, i live in a small city.

so,there are not much foreigners.

but i alwasy grasp every oppotunity to talk to them.

then, i find that it is quite easy to say hello to the 老外。

but, gradually,i realise that it is hard to be true friends.

明白我说什么吗？我词量有限。。。真是抱歉！

because of the culture shock and the chinese education system(only pay attention to grammar),once thay begin to speak english.actually they know little about english culture.

and...u know,...

numbers of chinese students prefer to watch movies or series.

actually,i suggest it may be better to listen to BBC..

personally suggestion.

很感谢您能如此关注中外差异。

而且你的中文不错哦~

Andrew

I have only read the last few entries, so forgive me if I repeat something another person has said. 

It has been my observation that many Chinese don't make friends easily with 'others' whether they are foreigners or fellow Chinese.  My wife (a Chinese) always complains about the cliques Shanghainese workers make that exclude non-Shanghainese staff.  I also remember quite well a student telling me she would be nervous moving to another city because Chinese often don't treat outsiders well.  At least they aren't blatantly rude to our faces, which I admit is small comfort.

That said, here is my personal beef.

I often read relatively difficult Chinese texts on the subway.  Occassionally someone will look over and clumsily say something like the following in English, "Oh, you study Chinese?"  Honestly, every time my initial feeling is that I want to rip their heads off.  It isn't friendly because they can clearly can see that what I am reading is far more advanced than simple chit-chat that they are trying to enter yet they either A) still don't think my ability is up to talking to them in Chinese at any level, or B) they just want to put their limited English to use and aren't really interested in conversation.  I really resent type A, but a part of me can sympathize with person B, although, since obviously my Chinese is more advance than the other person's English, and I am seriously learning Chinese, and this person in theory just wants a conversation and nothing more, I speak back in Chinese.   This is of course awkward, but nothing can be done about that.  After that, I always have to tell myself, "That's just part of living in China."

I mean, "their own universe"

and I should add, I think the exceptions definitely make it worth it :)

"For example, many of my freinds(Chinese) come back from US/Europ..."

This is an interesting anecdote which I think reveals another aspect of the same issue: Chinese people not only don't want to let 老外 get too close, they also don't want to get too close to 老外.

I used to think it was strange how at work, school, etc. there was always a clique of Chinese people who seemed to exist in their universe.  I used to feel really bad being left out, and that was one of my original motivations to start studying Chinese.  I thought "if only I could speak Chinese then they wouldn't leave me out".  I've only recently discovered, unless you have a Chinese face, even learning the Chinese language and culture is futile.  As RJ pointed out above, many people don't really want 老外 speaking such good Chinese (I think it's more than just they think Chinese should be too difficult for 老外 but also because they don't really want to be so close to 老外).  There are of course exceptions...

‘Chinese culture is unique, it's very hard to make Chinese look foreigner as "自己人" even though they have the same color like Japanese, Korean’。

这是什么意思呢？请。。。

Well, I think the key is still the culture.

For example, many of my freinds(Chinese) come back from US/Europ told me they always feel themselves stranagers there,like your feeling in China,but that's not because the people there but themselves, they think themselves are foreingers,are Chinese,are diffrient. They think they don't "belong" there.

I think it's deferent between Chinese and most Western people.You can find "唐人街" in US but you nenver find "美国街" or "欧洲街" in China.Chinese culture is unique, it's very hard to make Chinese look foreigner as "自己人" even though they have the same color like Japanese, Korean。

You may know "大山", a famous Canadian living in China a very long time and speak Chinese very very well,but in Chinese eyes he is still a foreinger, we call him "中国通" not a real "中国人".

I really don't know whether it's right or wrong, I can just say "Culture Differences" ..but I think the behavior that discuss others behind them is rude.

I'm not angry or offended at all, just discussing an issue I consider important.  I actually enjoy discussing this issue.

I appreciate your explanation, but what you say about strangers vs friends is not really relevant, even friends I've known for a long time do this.  They treat their Chinese friends differently than their 老外 friends. Of course, another aspect of the issue is the way people treat regular strangers vs 老外 strangers.  The distinction between friend and stranger is not related to the distinction between 老外 and everyone else.

Some care, and will change, but I think many people simply don't care to understand 老外's feelings about this issue.  Even if they do, many will still see a 老外  and automatically treat a 老外  differently than other people. It appears to be subconscious.  That's my daily experience.  I'm glad there are kind people like you though.  I'm blessed to have a number of people like that in my life.  But the number of people who aren't is too large to simply ignore as exceptions.

I know it's Chinese culture, and there are usually good intentions behind it, and almost never malice, but that's not really what this discussion is about.    I hope we can move past that, and discuss the real issue.  Instead of trying to explain reasons or denying the reality of this experience, why not discuss, even though this is the culture you were raised in and you're probably used to thinking this way, do you think that this is right or wrong?  I hope before you answer you can carefully consider John's article.

@andrew

Don't be so angry and I'm sorry if offended you...

I think it's the culture's difference make you confused.

In China,if you are a stranger others will respect you very much even you are a Chinese to express their "friendship", but it has deep meaning,Chinese people don't want to be too close with stranagers,they want to keep distance."friendly to others" means "protection to themselves" on the other hand in Chinese culture,Chinese won't look you as their "friend" at first so they will respect very much like a stranager which sometimes make you feel you are always a 老外,not a friend.

We call the guest as "friend", but it's just a respectable call,not the real meaning "friend".

If Chinese are very familar with you and unstander your feeling, I think they'll talk with you in chinese,at least I will,but it may be a long time.

I think you can understand that Chinese logic is not "direct", it's "complex", especially "人际关系".

It's very hard to describe but I hope you can understand and the most important is that it's Chinese Culture,no malice..

Wallace, I understand your good intentions, but I think you are missing what this discussion is all about.

1. I understand the nice, respectful feelings behind what you're saying.  I'd like to ask you though: Who said we're guests in the first place?  At what point do we stop being treated like a guest?  And why isn't this logic applied to people who look Chinese?  As for me, I just want to be friends with people and I would prefer they would forget I'm a 老外 and just treat me like a regular friend.  Then there would be no need for a label.  I'm not saying I expect to be everyone's best friend, but I just wish people would treat me like they do everyone else.

2.  I sympathize with people's need to learn English, and I try as much as possible to help people, in the right context.  But, it's an understatement to say that many people try to take advantage of 老外.  We're people, not language partners.  Not all people want to practice English, and have no obligation to.  Yet easily more than 50% of Chinese people, to varying degrees, treat 老外 as if they're language practice machines.  In the end, it's simply rude, and with all the other treatment that goes along with it, it's dehumanizing.

"if you express you want to communicate with us in Chinese, we'll be very pleased to do that"  is simply not the case in my experience.   A number of people have flat out told me that 老外 should not speak Chinese, others are more implicit about it, but their intentions are clear.  I recognize that a lot of people are pleased to, and it feels weird to say this, but I'm grateful that there are people like that who treat me like a regular person.  Which is of course ridiculous that I should need to feel that way.  On the other hand, there is a very large percentage who are simply unwilling to speak Chinese with 老外.  It's a fact.

You along with many others on this board, still seem to focus on the word 老外。  Again, I think everyone knows the good intentions behind it, an that 老 is very respectful like 老板 and intimate, like 老爸，老妈.  But everyone that tries to explain the meaning of this word, is completely missing the point.  The whole problem with the word 老外  isn't the word in and of itself.  It's everything that goes with it.  I've described numerous example of this above.     The need to even use this word on such a regular basis (as you have in your post) is indicative of the real problem.

To help you better understand this issue, I suggest you more carefully read the above discussion and also read John's article,  laowai 4ever.  He has a very well-written summary of this issue.  I hope you consider the distinction between being "welcome as a guest" and "belonging".  Also, I hope you can consider how dehumanizing it is that many people can never get past the fact that you're a 老外 and treat you as an individual.

I'm a Chinese , if I encounter a English speaking foreigner, I will talk to him in English...

Beacause:

1. I respect you and your culture, so I want to communicate in your mather language...in Chinese culture, we repect the guests...very much, an old Chinese proverb "有朋自远方来，不亦乐乎" proves it..

2.I want to practice my English on the other hand.

But if you express you want to communicate with us in Chinese, we'll be very pleased to do that...

"老外" is not a detracting word, we call all the foreinger "老外"...

Most of the Chinese are friendly and kindly...

My English is not good... sorry... :(

对不起，那么长的时间才回答你们。真的谢谢你们跟我分享你的想法。

Richardjk:  这里有很多中国人。很多的人一直都当我和别人不一样，别当我只是普通的人。我在上面已经讨论了好几个例子。

starjiang: 我说我中文不好是因为我中文真的不好。不是自信的问题。我也不是谦虚的。关于你说的“我觉得你来到中国之后会。。。他们就会放心地把你当自己人”我希望如此，但是到现在不是这样。可能在国外的中国人和在国内的中国人不一样。我不知道。

wzj2008： 关于“首先。。。”，我这几个星期告诉我的朋友，他们把我当外人的时候真的让我很难受。多半的人马上就停了当我是外人。但是还有些人一点不认真考虑这个问题，还继续一直都当我是外人。我还要说如果他们“没意识到这样会让我产生这种想法”这只是原因，不是正当理由。不小心把人当外人真会让人很难受。关于“其次。。。”，你说的很有意思，也真的帮助我更了解中国文化的想法，谢谢你。我只是不同意你说的这个句子“他们才会忘掉你是美国人”，其实在我经历中有很多的朋友一直都当我是外国人，别当我是和别人一样。本来我觉得我们是亲近的朋友，后来发现我们不是。但是我也有很多人不关我是老外，他们一直都当我是普通的人，一直都没有把我当我是外人。我真幸福有他们那么好的朋友。我希望“我始终相信人是感性的动物，只要真诚交流，什么语言问题，文化障碍都不会是什么大问题。”是真的。虽然有很多人到底不关一个人是哪国人，但是我越来越发现好像有很多人不要让老外太近。

不是..Q495261566

可以啊...

我只是随便写写..不是作品.

我Q空间有...4952615266

希望找native speaker广泛的聊聊某些话题, 不想每次见面都反复说"你好,吃饭了吗?" 感觉这样对提高语言收效甚微.有同样想法的朋友可以加我MSN:sgn316@msn.com.

Looking for a native speaker who can talk to me deeply, Not only to say "hello,how are you!" every time we met, but also we can talk about everything both of us like. you can contact  me If you have the same idea, MSN: sgn316@msn.com :p

如同网络上的流行的"囧"字, 本来现代汉语中不用这个字, 但是后来大家都慢慢的开始用, 时间久了大家就都接受了. "老外"这个词应该也是这样, 只是一个习惯问题.

@andrew & @miantiao

我的英语合适能像你们的汉语一样好, 我也就知足了. :P

Hi chenmei 同学

我很想看你写的书法作品。你可不可以给我们介绍你的一个作品？

我们现在在学中国的近代史。。。也许我可以讲给你们听！

中国人经历了那重重挫折，仍然以坚强的意志站起来了。。。

中文说容易的确容易，说难的确难，一些涉及到古文（文言文等）。

对中国书法，我说实话，情有独钟！！虽然我才14岁，别人不相信那写书法是我写的.（不相信我写的那么好）但我证明了。。。至少家人相信，相信我，不像以前一样认为我只是学习一些皮毛功夫。。。我用一次次奖证明了。。（全国全能银奖，广东庆建国60周年我得了特等奖。还有世界华人艺术节的了艺术新人奖等）让我的家人，朋友相信了。。。

We have all screwed up by translating English directly into Chinese. So, its interesting to see someone doing that in reverse - "méiyǒu" into "don't have".

andrew_c  u dont have add me...

我没看到。。

我的MSN：take21jp@yeah.net

@starjing "I believe that foreigners can make true friends with Chinese as long as they are sincere".

说得好。只要某某老外多用心的追求和中国人交往，就应该没得问题。

Andrew c,

首先，你现在应该可以可定中国人（至少是很多中国人）真诚，乐意跟你们这些“老外”交朋友的。你看在你表明了自己觉得用英语跟你交流是把你当外人的想法之后，很多中国人都用汉语回答你的问题。也许当中国人用英语跟你交流的时候，他们没意识到这样会让你产生这种想法。

其次，中国人自古以来就有很强的内外之分。就连我们不同省份的人都有这种现象。比如一个重庆人和一个山东人，在不是很了解的情况下，或者没有共同话题的时候，都会说：“你们山东人...”“我们重庆...”。但是随着相互的更深的了解之后，重庆人才不会特意的说“你们山东人...”山东人才会忘掉“你们重庆人...”。只有你和你周边的中国人都敞开心扉，真诚交流之后，他们才会忘掉你是美国人，当你是自己人。

我始终相信人是感性的动物，只要真诚交流，什么语言问题，文化障碍都不会是什么大问题。

最后希望你能感受到我的真诚，忘掉我们说英语跟你带来的不愉快。如果你不介意，我们可以做朋友。

    因为一个偶然的机会进了这个网站，本来是只是想随便看看的，但是你的问题和想法引起了我的兴趣，所以专门浏览了一下你的留言。

    刚开始还犹豫是该用英语还是汉语跟你交流，但后来发现不管是从你的汉语水平考虑，还是从你的性格考虑，用汉语都比较好。

   不知道你说自己汉语不好是出于谦虚还是别的什么原因，如果是由于不够自信的话，我想告诉你，你的汉语已经算是很好了。

   你不喜欢被别人当外国人看待的问题，我觉得你来到中国之后会有所改善，因为除了想跟你英语的人，大部分人还是比较喜欢用自己的母语交流的，而且不把你当外国人，我们自己也会更轻松。只是这个在过程中有个磨合期，中国人总体来说还是比较内向的，他们把你当外国人（客人），主要是怕你不习惯他们的文化，当你能主动帮他们消除这种疑虑时，他们就会放心地把你当自己人。Best wishes to you!

Andrew: 还是用日语的多点，一般都用日语，日文这个说法很少用。在中国用的较多的是汉语，中文，说道日本的话用日语。 那个名字写法上我就不知道了，不懂日语，你可以去问问懂日语的人。

至于当老外是重要的，其实现在不怎么重要了，只是刚刚建国的时候外交上的要求，称呼外国人为外国友人，这个有点涉及政治了，我不谈政治。如果你有兴趣可以去看看中国的近代史，希望有所帮助。

你没来过中国怎么会觉得别人当你不一样呢？

I am a native Chinese. It is really happy to find this website. I learned that more and more foreigners have been starting to learn Chinese, and I am happy to tell them more about China. It's really a good thing to deepen the mutual understanding. 

I totally unerstand that some Chinese who only want practise their English make you feel annoyed, and that you don't want to be treated like outsiders. However, I'd like to tell you gays that most Chinese are as kind and friendly as you foreigners.

The reason for you to get some bad experiences is because you don't really understand what the other is really thinking about. So, in most cases, you can just tell them your true feeling, if he or she still treat you like that, then that one does not deserve to be your friend.

I believe that foreigners can make true friends with Chinese as long as they are sincere.

这不是国家之间的差别。只是我自己的性格。

反正，我一看你的头像就知道你看《死神》我也觉得他刀变化后的样子，但我觉得她妹妹的更好看。我只是不喜欢他的性格。我的问题不是他们的发音是不是很像，我只想问在中文里面他们名字的汉字是不是和日文的一样。可能我不应该写日语，应该写日文吗？

我没有去过中国，一直都住在美国。也没有听别人说洋鬼子。我的意思只是怎么称呼老外没有什么大不了。只是怎么当老外是重要的。我觉得你真帮助我多了解原因和中国思想。谢谢你。但是到底这只是原因，我还觉得不舒服有些人当我和别人不一样。

andrew：my god! 我发现你思维跳跃的好快啊。我刚刚还在和你讨论一个看起来很严肃的问题，哈哈。看到了，这就是我们两个国家之间的差别。

不过我也在看《死神》这本漫画，不过我看的是动画片。更木剣八 的发音在日语和中文里比较相近。日语我不太懂，不能在这里发表评论误导你，不过就我看过的动画片来看发音还是比较相近的。白哉我还是喜欢他刀变化后的样子。感觉很好看。你是怎么知道我在看《死神》的，还是只是猜测？

你能在msn上在加我下吗。我msn不怎么用，都在用QQ。

richardjk: 我要随便说，我也很喜欢《死神》但是不太喜欢那个朽木白哉(Kuchiki Byakuya)，他太不懂幽默。我更喜欢那个更木剣八(Zaraki Kenpachi)。他们的中文名字和日语名字一样吗？

andrew：洋鬼子和洋人是过去几百年前的称呼了，当然现在也在用不过已经不多了。

我不知道你现在在哪个城市，毕竟在中国见到外国人还是一件很稀奇的事情，尤其是在二三线城市，这些城市不像上海和北京那样有所谓的国际化，或者可以说是还是比较保守的城市。如果有外国人，特别是和当地人的外貌上差距很大的就会特别引起注意了，多数应该是好奇心去影响吧，我是这么认为的。也不排除是有的别的原因。

不过我认为可能还是两个国家在处事方式上的不同，价值观和思维方式都是不同的，我的一些留学的朋友在开始的时候都有你这样的，我认为的，在交流上的问题及感觉很难融入另一个社会。

中国还没有美国那么自由，至少我认为，我不知道美国的现状。不同阶级的人之间的交流是很难进行的，我是指有实质的，建设性的，特别是在影响到一部分人利益的时候。这可能也会是很困难的。如果你在两个阶级直接是很难处理的关系。包括在公司里的小团体之间的关系。

可能我不该说这么多，毕竟我还是学生，我只是把我的一些想法和你交流。

shanpan: 谢谢你的同情。

richardjk: 当然了。但这个问题还有很多方面。这个称呼没什么大不了的。人可以随便称呼我老外，洋人，洋鬼子，什么的，我一点都不介意。这个问题就是当老外和别人不一样。

chenmei: 我在MSN上添加你了

老外已经基本是惯用来代指外国人的词语了。没有什么别的意思了。

 这是我的理解。

在学校上信息课

下课了

还有两天才回家！！

HI

史度。。。

可以帮助你学习中文，比如文言文。。等等！

尽我所学到的，帮助你。

@andrew_c

再补充一下，你的情感相当细腻。

@andrew_c

我现在非常同情你的遭遇了，看来你的体会相当深刻，这可能是我始料不及的。不好意思，看来没什么可以帮助你的了。总之，希望你能适应你在中国的生活。

lynnx:  这个称呼只是我们讨论的问题的一个肤浅方面。

shanpan: 谢谢你回答这个问题。 你说“只要是一眼见到一个西方人的面孔。。。深入交流了以后才会慢慢亲近了。” 不仅是一看一个老外就觉得不一样。认识之后还有这个感觉，在我经历中一直都当这个老外和别人不一样。很多很多人一直不当老外是自己人。还会当他们的老外朋友和别的朋友不一样。你觉得呢？这好像是很多的会说流利中文的老外的经历。

美国当然有问题，我也会批评美国的问题。但是美国的问题是完全不一样。比如，在美国大概有更多有恶意的人，但是，在美国多半的人没有你说的感觉也一看一个"foreigner"肯定不会那么惊讶的回答，那么过分的回答。美国的问题和中国的问题不一样，到底别的国家的问题并不是藉口。

u2sonia23: I suggest experiencing it yourself.  Just speak Chinese to almost anyone you've never met before, starting with as simple as "hello", "what's your name?", "do you accept credit cards?", "can I help you with something?", "where's the bathroom?", "table for two", etc.  Then try it with another person, and then another... and you'll see almost every person asks the same questions every time, ultimately you hardly even need to to think.  And as pointed out in John's blog post, they're pretty much all centered around the fact that you're a 老外.  If you don't have the opportunity to experience it yourself, John gives some examples here: laowai 4ever.

@面条

哈哈 对，我们是朋友了。我可不会叫你猪，那样不好。

告诉你，你没错 猪有时候并不是贬义词，它有时候是某些人无比向往的愿望。因为猪都比较肥胖，在中国肥胖是福。我的爱人有时候跟我讲，她要是只猪就好了，什么都不用操心，整天除了吃就是睡觉。哈哈，我听了后相当无语。

Hi there

Could somebody tell me what the so called "20 questions" is?

thanks :D

@善判

你无语了？没得问题，休息一哈。 我们现在算是朋友，对吗？可以叫我猪！反正，我以为在中国 猪 是 褒义词。可能我错了。

@面条

我无语了！！

其实说句实话，想让中国人不把一个陌生的西方人当外人，从情感上讲，那是不可能的。这是中国人的思维，中国人的逻辑。只要是一眼见到一个西方人的面孔，所有的人都会或多或少觉得有点跟自己不一样。我想，不仅仅是在中国，在西方也是一样的，这是每个人的情感，每个人的逻辑思维。别太执拗了，深入交流了以后才会慢慢亲近了。

哈哈，极端啊！就是事实呗! 因为我也自己承认我是猪，所以当别人叫我猪，就没得问题。

偶还没有跟老外交流过呢，呜呜……

不过，我现在都是自言自语叫“foreigner” 。

我觉得没有人是怀着恶意去叫“老外”这个称呼的。 人之初，性本善，多数人还是善良的。如果觉得不礼貌、不习惯、不喜欢…… 那可能是文化差异的问题。人与人之间只要真诚相待就好。

@面条

俺非常同意你的观点，特别是在人口众多的中国。

呵呵，你说话好极端啊，连猪都出来了，除非是跟你关系特别特别好的人或者是被你气恼的人，没人会叫你猪的。哈哈。

@shanpan,

朋友，说实话，某某人叫我老外，叫我猪，叫我家伙，叫我亲爱的，我都不在乎！可是呢，要是陌生人叫我朋友，我就会觉得那个人有目的。你觉得呢？

这个帖子的讨论最激烈，可以想象，这个话题牵动了很多在中国的外国人的心。@andrew_c 其实问题并不是你想象的那么复杂。不要太在意某个称呼。称呼你老外并不是不把你当朋友。如果你愿意，很多中国人都会诚心诚意成为你朋友的。在中国多呆段时间你就明白了。其实，中国人对一个陌生的中国人也是这种心态的，比如谈到某个中国人时，我们一般会称呼“这个人”或者“这个家伙”（这个称呼比较不礼貌，但是经常用到）而不会说“这位朋友”。

顺便说一下，要真正把一个人当成朋友，是需要深入交流的，如果称呼一下“朋友”就成了朋友的话，那有点不合情理。

理解万岁

Well, I think I understand your frustration. Being a caucasian resident of Hawaii, I will always be a "haole" (foreigner in Hawaiian) no matter how long I am here. On an island with a population of 65 K I am still asked where I'm from, routinely. No matter that I've been here for decades and raised my children here. My Native American friend, however, is considered a "local" as soon as she steps off the plane to visit me. We are both judged purely on appearances. In China I will always be a 老外. I think you are worried that no matter how great your chinese is, you will always be considered an "outsider" because of your western face. I don't think that has to be 100% true. Here is what I've learned by living in places where my appearance was judged before my person. Give it time. Over time, you will develop a circle of friends who really know and enjoy who you are - just as you know and enjoy who they are. You will be considered a true friend- not simply a foreign friend. They will almost forget, as John's wife does, that you are a foreigner.  There are some towns and neighborhoods in China where I am no longer a novelty and people want to get to know me, or at least can ignore me. I think it would be utterly frustrating to live in a big city where everytime you get in a cab you have to face the same questions and have the same converstion. Its bad enough when I travel. But as comfortable and familiar as I have become with my friends and family in China, I will never know what it is like to be a Chinese. I will always feel a pang when I'm told, "you just don't understand ..." but I know that it is correct. No matter how proficient I might become in the language nor how literate in the culture, customs, history, etc. I  will never know what it is like to grow up Chinese. I will be 老外4ever, but I can still have close and true friendships and so will you.

PS. I don't think the Chinese are unique in pointing and shouting "hello" to strangers. I've seen the same behavior by Americans - towards celebrities. Can you imagine Brad Pitt walking unnoticed down a street in America (or any other country)? I'm guessing when fans meet him or other celebrities they ask the same 20 questions and have the same conversations. The difference is that as westerners, we get the "star" treatment in China sans the big bucks!

pingyuanzi,

是我真的头像。谢谢你的解释关于老的意思。我现在更了解。但是到底这不是一个措词的问题，还有很多方面。

miantiao:

我有同感

ashka824:

这个问题没没有那么简单。

yester934:

第一：关于“老外”，这个问题还有很多方面。如果只是用这个称呼就没问题了。你应该多考虑这个问题是什么。

第二：你说的不对。我已经听很多人说中国有很多方言。但是关键的是我会说普通话，可是都怪我连很多人不愿意跟我说普通话。很多人说因为我是老外我应该说英文，别说中文。

史度，你好！

第一次来这里，发现很有意思，这个话题不错，很受欢迎啊。

我也来谈谈自己的看法，对“老外”这个称谓。

这可能是一个文化的问题，中国人或多或少都有点排外，这里的外不是指外国人，而是说针对旧的事物，或者一个特定的圈子，圈子之外就是所谓的“外”。比如中国这么多省份，你在不同的地方，经常被问到的就是你是哪里人？在本地人看来，你不是这长大的，你就是外地人。这里的“外”跟“老外”中的“外”应该是同一个意思。与西方人相比，中国人更趋于保守，这里把旧的事物比做内的话，新的（一般是外来的）事物就自然成为“外”了！当然，随着改革开放一来，中国已经发生了很多变化，最明显的就是更加开放，更加积极进取，这正是我们值得欣慰的地方。

以上仅仅是我个人一些不成熟的见解，不当之处，欢迎讨论。

顺便说下，我同桌刚看到你图像，说好酷的图像啊，想问下这是你真实的图像吗？

我还是觉得并不是称呼，而就是个称号罢了！其称号虽说对我们老外们说有一点奇怪，我不过觉得很好玩啊！

就是说，比如我个人在祖国而看到一个中国人迷路了，然后向他走过去问一下需不需要帮忙，我不会叫他 ‘old foreigner' 还是 'foreigner'，因为不好听而不礼貌，就听起来我国对外界有一点排外主义的味道。

这个称呼只是为了解释我们是不同国籍的人，但友好的朋友，不管是中国还是外国，我们都会欢迎，都会当成朋友待的。

Friendly friends, whether Chinese or foreign, we will welcome as a friend would be the.

好了， 我也来加一句。普通话越好，就让你多有资格选用中文聊天。只要维持意志强就可以了，意思就是说，要先准则对方的英文能力，才可以操纵话题和对方用的语言，比如；先用家常的礼貌，这不用说了，应该的，然后把话题转复杂一点，这就会让你看看对方的能力。 千万不要因为自觉的不好意思、可怜对方、而让开，这就算是屈服的样子！某老外来中国的目的到底是什么呢，难道原因之一不是为了提高自己的汉语能力吗？

哎呦！竞争很激烈，一定必须投入，否则必然失败。

不过，要用礼貌。善战者不败。

关于 ‘老外’ 的称号，我觉得好听喽！可爱得很。 老外就是老外三，爪子嘛！

看来这个话题越来越有意思

最关键的还是在于：你不了解中国文化

当你了解中国文化之后：应该不会执着于“老外”称乎

想要学好中文（汉语）就要先了解一下

可以举个例子：国内人和人聊天都有一个比较有意思的事情

只要你说普通话，大家都说普通话

当有人说方言-（有人听的懂的话）也会跟着说方言

中国的方言多着呢。不是每个人都听的懂不同地方的方言

I might be tempted to say "对不起，我说英文说的不太好。 我们可以用普通话吗？" ("Sorry, my English isn't very good. Can we use Chinese?"). Not being from an English-speaking country might have its advantages.

Then again, starting off with a lie might not be a good way to build a friendship ...

the system I strive for is when everyone is speaking Chinese then we speak Chinese, when everyone speaks English then we speak English.  It doesn't seem to always work though due to my appearance.

That really is a good idea. Odd and even days language rotation with friends.

andrew

Thank you for your best wish. And you have my best for your Chinese study too.

I've never experienced things you have expericend in  China here in France. But just like you, tons of awkward moments did have happened to me due to my lack of skill in French. Living somewhere that is not your home is always not easy, especially for those who are trying to create a new life overseas. In my 1st years in France, the most common response that i got was a confused looking face. Then some of them would just switched to English (not Chinese). Take their thick french accent into consideration, it was pretty hard to understand them. There was a time that I almost gave up any hope of making friends with french guys and I was really homesick. But after a 2 year stay, things have changed: while I still can't say that I'm a master of this language, at least I won't feel like a retard when talk to some. I made several french friends, I mean, really good ones, like buddy-buddy. Living overseas is a tough job, it may takes quites a long period before you finally getting used to it. But sooner or later, you will. That's what i found out. Be more patient, dude.

Ordinary Chinese rarely interact with someone whose 1st language is not Chinese, that explains why they insist on talking to you in English: they see this as an opportunity to try something different that have to be exploited. May be you could do this to solve to promble, tell your chinese friends that it's ok to have conversation in English, but only in odd days, and even days should be Chinese-only. You get your Chinese improved, they have their English improved, everyone gets what he wants. 

"希望你能完全忽略我是外国人" 这句话我能够明白，但是不地道。任何一个中国人都会说“希望你别把我当外国人”。

“忽略”这个词太正式了，一般口语中，我们会用不同的词代替。比如：没注意，或者别的什么。

I'm really in a hurry to go out, this post is finished in less  than 10 min. So, sorry if i made any mistake in English(Nomarlly, I chechk twice before I post it but not this time). It's my second language anyway.

wyf30,

你蛤想不懂这个问题是什么。并不只是措词的问题，还有很多很多的方面。我希望你能多考虑。

Hi Chenmei,

I appreciate the offer  :) but help with what?

对，我的中文名字叫史度。

请问你的中文名是叫史度吗？刚把我的MSN号码PM给你了，希望能加我为好友^0^

呵呵,这贴子蛮有意思哦!(口语)

我还是喜欢看中文,比英文舒服很多,也是因为英文不大好的缘故吧!

现在中国的外国人越来越多,中国人走在街上看到外国人,并不像从前那样觉得好奇。所以我个人认为：我们现在所说的"老外",是很自然的表达,没有任何贬意哦。 史度大概是认为"老外"的称呼有点冷漠或是拒人于千里之外的含意,呵呵,不要想那么多啦~~  不只是因为国籍不同而喊“老外”，两个陌生的中国人之间也会认为对方是“外人”。所以，你如此认真的学习汉语，还会认为自己是“老外”吗？ 呵呵 ~~

=.=

其实我的英文名不是Kitto

而是 Eric Lee

如果你喜欢，也可以叫我的中文名字，在这不方便透露...

注册的时候我没多想就随便填了一个名字…

嘿嘿，冒昧地说一句，你的中文口语水平真的需要提高啊~因为我理解你的意思也用了好几分钟…

哈哈，不过我想我的英语水平也好不了哪去…

唔，这个，其实我觉得确实是他们做得不好，因为你已经强调过了，但是他们并没有注重这个

也可以这么说吧，中国人有时候很容易会忽视一些礼仪上的细节，这个问题产生的原因要归根到中国的教育问题，在这里就不深究。

所以在这我代表他们向你道个歉，也希望他们能够早日认识自己的错误。

有一点你是可以放心的，他们是绝对没有把你当客人什么来看的，也没有把你隔离的意思，你们的关系也不会因此受到影响

很抱歉我不是心理专家，不知道应该怎样说才能解除你心中的烦恼，或许你应该郑重地去找他们亲自谈一下

在中国人看来，美国人很幽默，也许当你提出你的要求的时候他们认为这只是开开玩笑，并没有认真对待。

其实，你说如果在你们那里把一个中国人称呼为Chinaman是不对的，在中国也一样

我是居住在广东的，如果我去了上海的话，只会在我被介绍给大家认识的时候才会特别地注明我是广东人，而在一般场合是绝对不会叫我“广东人”“那个广东来的”之类的称谓。

至于为什么你会觉得，如果是日本人或者韩国人在中国，我们就不会对他们说外语

其实主要有两个原因：

1.不知道对方是日/韩人，毕竟我们外表看起来很相似很相似，如果不说还真的不知道；

2.知道对方是日本或者韩国的，但是他们说的英语大多数都不太标准（没有歧视或者讽刺的意思），如果用英语交流起来会很困难，而我们中国人没有多少人懂得说日语或者韩语，所以只好用中文跟他们交流；

【我常常告诉人这样，他们平常回答“对不起，我只是不习惯跟老外说中文”下一次就又开始当我不是和别人不一样，继续跟我说英文】

这个…我只好说，你遇到的人真的很囧，我认为有几个可能：

1.可能是他们认为你中文水平不好，我是说，口语水平；

2.可能是他们觉得用英语跟你交流会让你更有亲切感，我们中国人很注重感情，你知道；

3.可能是他们认为你只是开开玩笑而已，在上面我也说了，在中国人印象中，美国人很幽默

这样吧，我建议，你应该郑重一点地跟他们解释清楚，用中文解释，当然，我觉得对你而言还是有点困难的，因为我不知道他们是否真的理解你的意思

不过，需要注意的是不要太过严肃哦，否则他们可能会觉得你是个斤斤计较的人，这样不好

哈，是不是觉得跟中国人交往有点困扰呢？

你应该听说过“中国人很好客”吧

如果你不希望自己被当做一位guest，还是需要自己的努力的，不是吗？

=.= 好像我说的话有点长了，也不知道你能不能看懂哈。

我以前没用过MSN，不过刚刚去下载了这个软件，我会尝试一下用这个软件，还有，很高兴认识你

方便的话就给我发一下邮件吧

623257966@qq.com

hey andrew_c

my MSN:take21jp@yeah.net

maybe i  can help u (im chinese )

Kitto,

对不起我的中文那么不好。

"也并没有故意去给中国人与外国人划分一条界限…"

当然人有好意，当然不是故意的分一条界限。但是结果就是这样。但人一算一个老外不只是人和别人完全一样而且是老外,就有问题了。也不只是“老外‘这个词的问题。还有其他的方面。比如我跟别人在一起，已经认识的人常常在跟别人说中文就自动地对我说英文，他们就是划分一条界限。这是日常的经历。如果没有什么条界限，那为什么要用别的语言呢？

“其实不是的，。。这是很重要的，关乎是否尊重他人的问题。”

如果他们在一个多半的人都在说中文的地方不应该以为他们不会说中文。到底只是一个老外的联会让人想那个老外不会或不喜欢说中文。这不是尊重。
 
"另外，很多中国人都没办法在很好的环境里学习外语，因为我们身边几乎没几个外国人，学习外语的环境比较差，而别人对你说外语的原因之一也许是能够提升一下ta的口语水平"

我再说“我了解很多人想联系英文，但是他们应该更礼貌。每一个人不是英文老师或者语伴，应该问他们介不介意联系英文。否则这是太不礼貌了。另外，如果他们和中国人长得一样还会这样做吗？”

“所以，我想说，其实真的不必那么在意这种事的，或许，你可以尝试跟他们说一下，你喜欢用中文说话，并且希望能够提高自己的中文水平，他们会很开心，会因为自己是中国人而骄傲的。”

我常常告诉人这样，他们平常回答“对不起，我只是不习惯跟老外说中文”下一次就又开始当我不是和别人不一样，继续跟我说英文（还有很多方面）跟人说英文并不是为了让他们帮我提高自己的中文水平，只是为了跟朋友在一起。
 

"So,希望你能看得明白我说的话。"
可能我还不懂中国文化，但是如果你用英文说"I hope you can understand clearly what I am saying"这个句子有点condescending的感觉。


感谢你给我“好人”的解释

 

“嗯…你用QQ的吗？希望能够认识你。”

我很少用。。。我发现连在QQ上人也当我是老外。。。总是不认识的人想跟我练习英文。我一直都上MSN，Google Talk，AIM，Yahoo. 请给我一个PM。。我也希望多认识你。。

=口=

I'm sorry,I made a mistake.

The word "传说" should be "传统".

囧

好吧，这个问题么…

其实我想说，中国人习惯了把外国人叫做老外，并没有不尊重的意思，也并没有故意去给中国人与外国人划分一条界限…

你知道，在如此庞大的一个国家里面，并不是人人都能够与外国人接触，所以，能够跟外国人接触，是很多人都会感到开心的事情。

我是一个刚读大学的学生，读外语系，所以不知道是否能够完全理解你的意思，我想，你应该是希望他们对你别那么见外，你也许会感到你们的关系并不亲密

其实不是的，在我看来，只有对外国人尊敬的时候才会用外语与之谈论，因为我们并不确定对方是否擅长说中文，或者说，对方是否喜欢说中文

这是很重要的，关乎是否尊重他人的问题。

另外，很多中国人都没办法在很好的环境里学习外语，因为我们身边几乎没几个外国人，学习外语的环境比较差，而别人对你说外语的原因之一也许是能够提升一下ta的口语水平

所以，我想说，其实真的不必那么在意这种事的，或许，你可以尝试跟他们说一下，你喜欢用中文说话，并且希望能够提高自己的中文水平，他们会很开心，会因为自己是中国人而骄傲的。

So,希望你能看得明白我说的话。

上面回帖中的Kefira是我的网友

o(╯□╰)o

还有提醒你一下哦，在现在的时代，赞扬别人是好人的话有两层意思：

1.nice guy，就是传说的好心人、人品很好的意思；

2.这个意思我不懂得用英语表达，就是说，当一个人告白的时候被拒绝，对方常常会用“你是一个好人，你会找到比我更好的人”这个借口来拒绝，于是乎，拒绝多了也就变成了“好人”

嗯…你用QQ的吗？希望能够认识你。

kefira:

一看你的留言就太高兴了。。。谢谢你帮助我的语法！  你就是一个好人！

因为好奇点进了这个网站，看到了这篇帖子:)，非常感谢你的意见，让我反思了不少，真的，以前从没意识到这些问题

你说你不喜欢“老外”，“外国人”，“外国朋友”这些称呼，这让我觉得很惭愧，哈哈。我自己以前也经常说这几个词，而没意识到你们会对这反感。中国人太多了，大多数时间人们都在忙自己小圈子内的事情，可能大多数人一辈子都没机会跟多少外国人接触。所以潜意识里就会把你们和“我们”区分开了。

但几年前我在google一个NDS游戏的资料，无意中找到了一个国外论坛（www.neoseeker.com），觉得很棒，于是我很兴奋地注册，时不时地跟人说“我是中国人”（现在想想这个行为真是傻帽），不过后来发现论坛里的朋友们并没有把我当成“外国人”对待，照样跟我叽里呱啦说一大堆我翻词典都不知道什么意思的英语词汇。0_0~~~一开始有点奇怪，不过后来就习惯了，觉得很自在。我在那里认识了很多朋友，经常互相开刷着玩。所以我想我现在理解你的感受了。:)

不知道其他人是怎么想的，不过如果我碰见有外国人跟我说中文，我也会跟他说中文。（也有例外，如果他说的我理解不了，事情又很紧急，我就会跟他说英语）因为他说中文就表示他愿意用中文跟我交流。

你的意见很有启发性，如果你不介意，我想把这篇文章的地址分享给朋友们让更多人看见:)

EDIT：“希望你能完全忽略我是外国人”语法不太正确，你可以说：“希望你别把我当外国人看”，更口语化

aiqingpingshen,

I really appreciate your sharing your experience and your advice.  If it's something you desire, I wish you the best learning more of the French language and culture.  Regarding your suggestions, I am trying, but I think it's easier said than done.  And about it bothering me, again, this is a lot deeper and more pervasive than people referring to me as 老外..    Just as another anecdote, has anyone ever told you it's weird talking to you in French and that you shouldn't speak the language because you're a foreigner, and then switched to Chinese? Or every time you go to the store, and you speak French when you're paying, does the employee then ask the French guy accompanying you if this foreigner can speak French?  I have no idea what France is like, but analogous versions of these are a regular experience for me...

Also, I really appreciate your help with the chengyu.  Thanks for the example, I get its connotation now.   Many people have heard me say it, and no one corrected me (typical response was "wow you can even say 置若罔闻"..., again the low expectations of 老外)           Would 忽略 be a better word to use?  Can I add a 完全 to it?    希望你能完全忽略我是外国人

Thanks a lot!

Hi go_manly

Yeah, I knew that. Looks like Chinese emperors traditionally have huge one. Anyway, you can't beat "Emperor", hehe!

changye

I was referring to his post from his other account. He has now changed the name of this account to "hugeandpowerful". His previous name was

"myd__kishugeandpowerful" - I'm sure you can fill in the blanks, if not, my reference to him as 'stumpy' might give you a clue.

Hi go_manly

You have to watch your mouth when talking to "皇帝/君主" （Emperor/sovereign）. Look at his name more closely. It says "爱卿平身" (ai4qing1ping2shen1), which is a typical line (spoken by 皇帝) you often hear in Chinese period dramas. It means "Everybody, stand up!". 你不该得罪皇上，我这个奴才不敢！哈哈。

Just end this topic, I dont wanna argure against you any more. If you do feel offended, here is my apology.

Now you can get  out of CPOD with the smile of victory on your face. Good night.

@whateveryournameis

Are you kidding mate??  You believe my words are more insulting than your name??  And you don't believe you deserved those words?? You have a warped system of values.

I am unable to delete those words, and you ARE able to change your name.

Interesting topic, maybe I got here a little bit late, hope it's still an on going disscution.

As a chinese who have living in France for years, I totally understand the difficuty people meet when they are trying to blend in with those who have completely different culture background. After 2 years here in paris, I know France just a little better than I know Mars. Even with my level of french greatly improved, I still feel like an outsider and still dropped out of disscution a lot. The things my french friends and I have in common are "jeu video" and "sports", nothing more.  Maybe it's just that my understanding of french language and culture is not enough.

◎andrew

When it comes to China, it's not that bad to be viewed as a "laowai" there, China is the only country on earth where as a native you recive less respect than foreigners(as sebire mentioned, some Chinese girls sleep with someone just because they are white, as a chinese male, i do hate this). If you feel offended by those who call you "laowai", just tell them to cut it off.  Make some chinese friends, try to be a member of local community, act as if you were a chinese and get youself a chinese name, as time passing by, you will find that you are treated like an native rather than an outsider.

By the way, the chengyu "置若罔闻" should not be used that way.  It means: to ignore something that can not be ignored, purly negative. I hope the following exemple helps:

我警告过他那是错的，但他置若罔闻。

There is no such a "change your name " system, so i got myself a new account. CPOD, could you pls delete my previous post, may be this one and that of the above user too?

@go_manly, get rid of the last two words of your post!!!!!! No matter what my name is, it dose not justify your insulting words!!!!!

Hey Stumpy, Change your name, YOU MORON.

Interesting topic, maybe I got here a little bit late, hope it's still an on going disscution.

As a chinese who have living in France for years, I totally understand the difficuty people meet when they are trying to blend in with those who have completely different culture background. After 2 years here in paris, I know France just a little better than I know Mars. Even with my level of french greatly improved, I still feel like an outsider and still dropped out of disscution a lot. The things my french friends and I have in common are "jeu video" and "sports", nothing more.  Maybe it's just that my understanding of french language and culture is not enough.

◎andrew

When it comes to China, it's not that bad to be viewed as a "laowai" there, China is the only country on earth where as a native you recive less respect than foreigners(as sebire mentioned, some Chinese girls sleep with someone just because they are white, as a chinese male, i do hate this). If you feel offended by those who call you "laowai", just tell them to cut it off.  Make some chinese friends, try to be a member of local community, act as if you were a chinese and get youself a chinese name, as time passing by, you will find that you are treated like an native rather than an outsider.

By the way, the chengyu "置若罔闻" should not be used that way.  It means: to ignore something that can not be ignored, purly negative. I hope the following exemple helps:

我警告过他那是错的，但他置若罔闻。

应该写“练习英文”

Zhen, anecdotally and from my limited experience, it seems that a lot more Chinese girls are interested in 外国人 because they are a 外国人 than say a British girl, for whatever reason (money/rebellion/status?) Some of these men are with girls that are a lot hotter than what they would get at home. I fail to believe that these women do not know exactly what is going on. The ready availability of women willing to sleep with you because you are white is going to encourage certain men to go to China. Not all women are like that, but it's not like an American can come to Britain and have lots of sex because he brings nylons. Maybe it's not as bad as that, but when you hear white guys that want a real relationship complain...

xduei,

"首先对于“老外”。。。。是不？"

可能吧，但是还不应该关一个人是哪国人。另外，如果他们和中国人长得一样还会这样想吗？

“再有么，。。。。可以好好练一练他的口语了。”

我了解很多人想联系英文，但是他们应该更礼貌。每一个人不是英文老师或者语伴，应该问他们介不介意联系英文。否则这是太不礼貌了。另外，如果他们和中国人长得一样还会这样做吗？

“ps:我以前就有一次这样子。。。也不知道能不能让你开心一点。”

我很开心你决定这是不尊重的，你好像是一个特别好人。

“ps:学外语是很痛苦的事情，要坚持；我自己就在学英语最近，头大。”

I wish you the best studying English :)

“希望你看到我的一大片中文不会晕倒。”

希望你能置若罔闻我是外国人。

Sebire based on these discussions I am drawing these conclusions: 1) There will be a contingent of "loose" women in every society (yes this I've always understood. I admit I don't find it easy to think about them.).  2) However because they are a minority group, the general female population of that society does not get labeled "loose" (by that society).  3) The outsiders, those western male people who get what they purely go to China for from that loose contingent, may still not make up the majority of western male people, but make such an impression so as to inspire and reinforce the generalization that westerners are promiscuous.
Of course the "pure people"--I quite like the reference to pureness in your comments--are necessarily being matched with local partners who meet their demands (this rhetoric is really repulsive). Still don't like the expression "takes two to tango" though. But I don't like the blanket labeling of "westerners = promiscuous" either.

Calkins, no need to apologize. At least you have a sense of humor. I don't know my geography obviously, and don't even recognize a joke when I'm staring right at it.
Why do you think it's so very easy in China (now) for those people full of pure intent to be promiscuous if they want?

syd5707--please forgive me if I'm totally off here and seem rude. Did you use an internet free translation service (like Google translate) to get the English you posted? I'd like to understand what you mean, but I'm sorry, it's a bit difficult. Are you Chinese?

Miantiao 不用谢. And I don't think so.
Agree with what?

lungminxin,

I agree with your historical explanation, but it's merely an explanation, by no means is it a justification.

I understand your good intentions, but I would just like to call attention to the following: imagine one of these "老外" is actually someone who has been living in your city for a long time, say 10 or more years.  How do you think the 老外 would feel if people always assume by default he's a tourist, just because of his appearance?

BTW, I just got your 校内 invite, in English and added you.  I'm really glad we can be friends there too :)

看了你写的这么多，我也说点什么吧。

首先对于“老外”，这个词儿，你不用较真，大山 （加拿大人），他那北京话说得 比中国人还中国人，我记得他有一年在春节晚会上说相声，临出场的时候还是被主持人介绍成“老外”，所以说啊，这个词不是排挤你的意思，就是单纯说你是从外国来的，而且一般中国人喜欢把外形上亚洲以外的外国人叫做老外，至于为什么，我也不知道。哈哈！

其实，私底下我觉得这个词其实还有点恭维意思，你想啊，一老外，非native 人士，跑到中国这么远的地方来，是需要点勇气吧？胆小的还不敢来呢！（中国人自己也知道，中文不好学）再加上你还会中文，大家就会觉得...嗯，这人挺牛的，是不？

再有么，其实现在基本上中国的学生都会英语，经济全球化了么，没办法，学校逼着学的，万恶的英语四级college english test band 4,不过不许毕业。

所以，很多同学见到外国人，也不管人家母语说不说英语，冲上去就想练练自己的英语，你想练中文，他想练英语，就是这样，所以你觉得他不跟你说中文，不把你当自己人...实际就是，他觉得捡到了宝，可以好好练一练他的口语了。

ps:我以前就有一次这样子，后来那个我问他话的外国人问我：“为什么你们不喜欢跟我说中文呢？”，我才仔细想过这个问题，其实这是很不尊重人的，我后来想。

唉，乱写了一大堆话，也不知道能不能让你开心一点。

ps:学外语是很痛苦的事情，要坚持；我自己就在学英语最近，头大。

希望你看到我的一大片中文不会晕倒。

Why make any assumptions that you should speak English with the 老外 in the first place? 

===========================

I do not know what people would do in other countries towards foreigners, but, usu. when I met a foreigner in the street, I would think they came here as a tourist(my hometown is a famous scenic spot),and maybe they can't speak Chinese. Sometimes when I speak to them in English, they are happy and would let me to help them contacting with other Chinese people... On my first assumption, I just want to be nice...

The reason of these differents between China and Foreigners, I think, is related to the history.

West countries are more multiracial than China, 90% majority in China belongs to HAN nationality. after 1978, more and more foreigners started appear in China. But west countries, as I think, are more racial integrational countries.

I can't explain this well in English, hope you can understand what I mean...maybe I would speak Chinese with you...

it's fine :)  I really appreciate all the advice you've offered :)

Hi andrew

I'm sorry for my a little "nasty" question, and thank you very much for your sincere answer. That is just what I wanted to hear from you.

Sometimes I am not happy. Usually I am very happy, I have a ton of wonderful friends.  Overall, I love the culture, people, language, and especially the food!  I think the disappointment I've conveyed in this discussion is a natural consequence of that love and happiness, they're two sides of the same coin.

Am I incompatible with the Chinese way of thinking?  Only in the sense that they don't see me as a person like everyone else because I look different.  Otherwise, yes, I am compatible.  Eventually I will make myself more compatible, because there's no other choice, it will take a bit more time though.

And in a sense I am being too serious and asking for the moon, but a lot of what I say above is more of a philosophical discussion, how I think things ought to be, not my actual expectations in real life.  In real life, I'll get used to it (I've only started dealing with it these past few weeks).    John was clearly disappointed when he wrote his blog post back in 2002, I'm sure he's used to it by now.

Hi andrew

It seems to me that you aren't happy communicating with Chinese people. Is that because Chinese people's attitude to 老外 is not ideal (for you)? Or, is that because you are simply not compatible with Chinese way of thinking? I think that you are a little too serious about this issue. Probably you're just asking for the moon.

lumingxin,

Really, I think all of us here know what the word means, it's really besides the point.  Perhaps literally it's as harmless as being merely a form of address, however, its gratuitous application entails much more.

Why make any assumptions that you should speak English with the 老外 in the first place?  What does a 老外 even look like to you?  After all, some foreigners (to China) look Chinese, but cannot speak Chinese.  Anyway, if you're in China, everyone ought to speak Chinese.  Even, if you're not in China, but you're in a place where everyone is speaking Chinese, everyone ought to speak Chinese.  In that case you should speak Chinese from the start.  If for whatever reason the 老外 doesn't speak Chinese in that case, he/she can apologize and ask you if you speak English or whatever other language they know.

I've rarely had the opportunity to go abroad.  But the way it worked when I was in Portugal two years ago was very nice and respectful.  Everyone spoke Portuguese to me.  I would then, using Portuguese, apologize and ask if they spoke English.  I was so happy, on the airplane ride home, when they were passing out customs sheets, I was given one in Portuguese, when I asked the flight attendant for one in English, she was like, "How could you go to Portugal but you don't understand Portuguese? Is this your first time?  How long did you stay for?"  I told her it was my first and that I stayed for a week, and she said it was okay this time, but I should study harder for next time.   I wish people would critique my Chinese, but I think their expectations of the Chinese abilities of monkeys are higher. (there are, fortunately, exceptions who have honestly told me how bad my Chinese is)

Furthermore, what you address are just two small components of the issue.  You can't really separate them from the full experience as a 老外.

For example, if I am with a Chinese person, another Chinese person will often greet the person I'm with and talk about me to the other person, even when I just greeted them in Chinese as well.  If I am not completely ignored, then I will usually be met with shock as if I am an alien, or excessive praise as if I'm a monkey.   This takes various forms, both in real life, and for example on 校内. 

This issue is really pervasive and affects every aspect of life, and you can't just explain it away by talking about the meaning of the word 老外 or how to make friends with people.

金发碧眼的外国人就是日本人眼中最有代表性的“老外”，好像中国人也一样吧。

我用的日中词典说‘金发碧眼’。我们日本人也说‘金髪碧眼：
发音 kin-patsu heki-gan’。我是才学到的，也可以说‘蓝眼’！

金发篮眼

===================

应该是 “金发蓝眼”或者“金发碧眼”。

First, I come from China.

I want to explain "老外"first, I think it is just a form of address, like "同学"”同志“...etc, it is an address used when people do not know others' name. It is strange to call a person ''老外'' after I know his name... and it is also strange to call a person "dear friend" before I know him very well.

I totally understand you want chinese people treat you as friend but not foreigner, but I think that is not a question about wheather foreigners or not, it is a question about the relationship between people and the others(my poor English...⊙﹏⊙b汗）. Becoming "friends" need some qualities, such as the same taste, the same habbies and they cared about each other, the nationality plays an unimportant role now, and more and more young people would happy to be friends with people from another country.

About the speaking thing,if the foreigners tell me they want to speak Chinese with me, I would happy to speak Chinese with them, but if they do not mention about that, I would speak English with them.

If you meet someone who keep speaking English with you, how about you just keep speaking Chinese with him? hahahaha, it's a joke.

blox,

Good point.That's food for thought.I have very little personal experience by which to guage it,or specific knowledge of the circles he was moving in.Is it possible to be caught up in an expat community that limits one's exposure to mainly other expats,attending English speaking International schools,and English speaking locals ? But you have a point.It's hard to imagine that if you're motivated you wouldn't find ample opportunity.

@bababardwan

That is a very easy way to justify one's lack of ability to speak Chinese. There are so many Chinese people that don't speak English at all, it's not like this 老外 hasn't had the freedom to speak with whoever he wants.

hey zhenlijiang, thanks for the diatribe, from which i guess you agree?

sukaili,

Great anecdote.

"they didn’t tend to force the conversation into English."

I met a guy the other day a 老外 who had lived in China since he was a young child and yet could only speak a smattering of Chinese because he said everyone insisted on always speaking English with him.What a pity I thought.It reminds me of the language power struggle lesson,but I wonder how effectively anyone has employed the lessons learnt there.

re: "Anyone else?"     Sad, but yes, I would wear one in a second (at least at this point while I still haven't grown numb to the 老外 treatment).

At no point in time have I felt the insincere (if not insincere, then demeaning) praise to be helpful at all, it's always been obvious to me my Chinese is bad and that if I had a Chinese face no one would be complimenting me.  If anything I have found it extremely demotivating.

I think the fact that people didn't force your friend to speak English is very telling that it's not just a desire to practice English behind the pervasive English treatment that 老外 receive

I'm entering this discussion a bit late, but I'd like to throw my experiences into the mix too.

When I studied in Beijing for a year, one of my classmates and closest friends was a Canadian 华裔.  I'm a 金发篮眼 American。Our Chinese proficiency was nearly identical, hovering around lower-intermediate.  When we spoke Chinese, 北京人 often heaped praises on me, then turned to my friend and demanded to know why her Mandarin was so poor.  When she explained that she grew up in Canada and only spoke English at home, most people responded by criticizing her parent’s failure to teach her Chinese.  I always felt uncomfortable and a little guilty in those situations, knowing that no matter how much she studied, she would never draw compliments from locals the way I did.  I have to admit that in the first few months those constant compliments kept me motivated to study, and I was grateful to “look like a foreigner”, unlike my Canadian friend.

But, as many people on this board have already pointed out, the novelty of 老外 attention wears off, and in the long run my 华裔 friend had a huge advantage.  When she talked with Chinese students who knew that English was her native language, they didn’t tend to force the conversation into English.  I became envious of her ability to walk through markets unnoticed and enjoy parks without having to take pictures holding a stranger's baby.  By the end of the year I desperately wanted to be able to look at Beijing without feeling like Beijing was looking at me.

I loved living in China and I’d go back in second, but if I could wear a 华裔 mask I definitely would. Anyone else? 

(sorry about the jumble of letters above my post... don't know how to remove it)

tvan,

Merely for the sake of debate I would say that in this age of contraception,tourism,and multiple partners,your argument is not foolproof.On the other hand I don't think the numbers of foreign tourists are that high in Taiwan[I'm under the impression that most tourism is regional] and thus the big downfall in your friends sweeping generalisation.For that reason your question to her was valid.I'm not a fan of generalisation.Generally it's unhelpful and inaccurate.

li_yanjing, of course not all girls are like that. I am pointing out that for every Western male that comes to China purely to sleep with Chinese women, there are equally several Chinese women quite happy to have no-strings-attached sex with a Western man.

syd, I agree with you that it is friendly, but it serves to reinforce the fact that 老外 can never belong and are fundamentally different.

校正：本来我看chinaman(特别种族主义的说法)但是你写的是chineseman。真对不起我看错了。可能会说一个人是Chinese但是，不会总是提醒他是Chinese。 而且，被称呼老外只是这个问题的小方面。这个问题还有别的方面。真对不起我的中文这么不好。

yester934:

不对。这是特别种族主义的说法。当然有些种族主义者，但是他们比较少。而且，多半的人会批评这种种族主义。其实，在美国多半的人不管一个人是不是一个foreigner。美国的情况也没有关系。美国当然有例外和很大的问题，但是不是日常的经历。如果你来美国人不当成你和本地人一样我一定会支持你批评这种行为。

I thought that the Chinese is the friendly utmost part!

I have lived in period of time east China

That should be the political issue! Is called “the foreigner” the meaning is friendly, I had the Chinese friends saying that Japanese they were probably angry

They have the name Japan pig! Japanese dog! The question which Japanese inexpensive anything many, that is probably past history kept question others who down also faces! “the foreigner” friendly is only a name! The Chinese to overseas not is also the same question?

andrew_c

其实你可以换一个角度来想想：

中国人在美国生活学习的话--你们同样会直接叫chineseman--不知道我说的对不对？

西方人和东方人差异比较大的。

直接叫老外---只是称呼

Yanjing,

对不起，我的中文真的不好，如果我误会你的意思，请原谅我吧。谢谢你跟我分享你的感想。我觉得很开心世界上有那么开明的人。我希望别人能博采众长。

只可惜很多人和你不一样，这是我和别的老外的经历。关于你的PS，可能有些人只想练习英文，但是肯定没有那么绝对，有些人只觉得很奇怪跟外国人说中文。我听说过好几个人表达这个感觉就回到跟我说英文。另外，即使他们只想练习英文，有时候练习英文不妥，有些人还继续跟一个老外说英文(比如http://chinesepod.com/lessons/language-power-struggle的对话)。人应该知道不该那样做。

也有时候肯定是一个肤色的问题，这是你自己说的“因为西方人的外表与中国人差异太大了”。

虽然我没去过北京，上海，香港，什么的，我有些认识的人来自那种很大的城市也一点都不当老外是普通人，是自己人，还当成他们是外人。

zhenlijiang, my apologies for not being clear with my choice of wording.  By using the word "perpetuate", I only meant that Taiwanese women "make it easier" for western men to be promiscuous here.

I also didn't mean to imply that these women are promiscuous, though of course all countries and ethnicities have promiscuous women.  In this specific situation, that's not a factor.  It's just very very easy for western men to be promiscuous here, if they want to be.

Also, sorry for using the words Taiwan and China.  I didn't do so with the intention of separating the two (even if I believe they should be...but I won't go there, not here!).  130km = distance b/t Mainland and Taiwan, at it's narrowest point.  The 130km pole was just my stupid sense of humor ;)

 @ sebire 

……not every Chinese girl~ most of us are friendly ~but some girls are crazy !

i think there are many girls like that in every country .. maybe they are not proud of bedding a Western man,but proud of bedding the football captain or some hot guys. am i right?

PS

可能有一个很大的原因：全世界都在学英文，尤其是中国孩子们。我们这里的大学生英语必须考过CET4的英语考试才能拿到毕业证，否则无法毕业。

也许是因为这样，大家对会说中文的外国人很好奇。再也许是因为大家已经对中文的魅力失去信心了。其实现在很多外国人学中文的。

如果有外国人跟我说中文，我会在心里说：Thank God！哈哈~~~因为我想到说英文就觉得很被动。别人跟我用中文交流当然好啦！！！~~

BTW 你不用太在意“不把你当自己人”那件事，并不是所有人都会对外国人保持距离的。很多人只以“兴趣爱好+共同语言”来交朋友，而不是以国籍和肤色。

@Andrew

你的中文真的很棒，所以，嘿嘿，我也用中文回答你的疑问了。

举个例子，在一个日本人或韩国人开口之前，中国人不会把他们当做“外国人”，因为他们和中国人有着相同的外表。可能因为西方人的外表与中国人差异太大了，所以从心理上有些恐惧感（？）或好奇感。

我妈妈走在街上有时候会盯着外国人看，我会阻止她，因为这样很不礼貌。

然而对于新生的一代人来说（至少对我来说），我觉得大家都是“人”，没有必要太在意外表是黑是白还是黄，所以我从来不会对外国人产生异样的感觉。我的一个很好的朋友是巴西人，在我心里他就是我的“朋友”，而不是“外国朋友”。虽然他不会说中文，虽然我们只能用英文交流，但这不妨碍我们的关系变得密切。

话说回来，大多数中国人不习惯有外国人在周围（想像一下当今“在中国的外国人”和“中国人”之间的比例）。如果你是在北京、上海、香港等城市，外国人绝对是被当做“普通人”看待的。

Zhen, the point is that I doubt the Chinese girl is going to be unaware that a Western man that can barely string a sentence together is going to think he's going to make an honest woman of her.

I've heard Western guys complain that the Chinese girls are interested in them purely so they can brag about bedding a Western man. So it definitely takes two to tango.

I have a female Taiwanese friend who made a statement along the lines that all Chinese men are two-timing pigs, whereas Taiwanese women are virtuous, faithful, and loving.  Pointing out that Taiwan's population was overwhelmingly Han, I brought up the obvious question of "Who are the men two-timing with?"  Her response was that a foreigner could not understand... right!

@tal, if misery loves company, you've got another 笨蛋 here.

Talking of promiscuous women calls to mind last nights premiere of Aussie ladette to lady  . I was amused with the comment of one of the teachers [English..set in Teesdale,England] of the finishing school when she upbraided and mocked one of the so called ladettes for saying "G'day".She demanded to know what "G'day" meant and when it was explained that it was an abbreviated way of saying "good day" she instructed the ladette in speaking in this more proper way..if you want to say "good day" you must say "good day" she explained in her finest upperclass English accent.Ah yes I thought,we're all still a bunch of lowbrow uneducated convicts,hehe.

Miantiao even I have met promiscuous girls and women, how could you have not? Have no idea what you mean about the shower, but pls don't trouble yourself to explain.

Anyway you seem to mean something different from my understanding of promiscuity.
"Willing", "consenting", even "active" doesn't make a person loose, which is my understanding of promiscuous. Dictionaries say things like "indulging in casual and indiscriminate sexual relationships".

I'm always totally straightforward--no tricks, seldom any humor.
I don't agree with these misconceptions/accusations.
What I mean by that:

Westerners are promiscuous.
This has been discussed elsewhere before.
Calkins mentioned there are western male people behaving like idiots so as to reinforce the misconception in Taiwan.
However any difference to note is not of course that Chinese (or other Asians) like it a lot less or do it much less than westerners. In China especially I guess but also still an issue in other Asian societies most people have a problem talking about it, still don't know how to accept that being sexual is not being immoral in some way, don't know how to acknowledge sexuality as something people can discuss openly in public respectfully and thoughtfully.
Expression of it seen in western culture and media usually not seen in China probably threatens people. Thus a promiscuous label gets slapped on westerners (which includes women as well, not just men), and all the world's BT product attributed to us Japanese, sadly.

btw I have never felt that Chinese "modesty" is an accurate word to describe the difference either. It's misleading.

Takes two.
Really don't like the sound of that, because it could be taken and interpreted to mean that any westerner's Chinese (or other Asian) wife, fiancee or girlfriend by association being labeled as promiscuous is acceptable and we're all fine with that.

Ladies perpetuate it.
Why would I agree? How is promiscuity perpetuated anyway?
(Sorry Calkins to nitpick but when you make statements like this you should expect to field a question or two, right!)

Apologies for going OT, and for saying so many obvious things in one post.

hey zhenlijiang,

your dead right, my mistake. i've never met a promiscuous female in my life. the only time i recall ever not requiring a second party willing to take part in a promiscuous 活动 would be in the shower. 

@ calkins, thankyous, gee whiz mate! 可能更好说， “昨晚，谢谢你的安慰”

i like your phrase 'borderline belligerant" is that belligerance without being belligerant? if so would that be more close to obnoxious and impetuous.

Ah thanks Sebire for the "Urgh".

Calkins never mind, it was dumb. But I think you brought up the issue you wouldn't touch with a 130-km (130?) pole ...

(Promiscuous, takes two, ladies perpetuate it--agree with none of those btw)

yes, but it is just smarmy enough to be appropriate in this context.

Urgh, the Chinese says "make love" as well? I hate that phrase!

...

as calkins says:we can only be ourselves.

...

Well, I must be one of life's true innocents, or just a 笨蛋. I had to marry a Chinese woman to get the chance to say that!

zhenlijiang, I don't really understand your Taoyuan question.  Would you mind rephrasing it?  Regarding your "mainland" question, I'm not touching that with a 130 km pole!

miantiao:

loud:  2 different kinds of loud...Chinese are just plain loud.  The annoying westerners just plain loud, rude, borderline belligerent, stupid, etc.  One is loud for sake of face, the other loud for sake of no brain.

selfish:  individuals, not as a society.  and trust me, these morons don't give to charity.

rude:  it's not frank, straightforward, or honest.  it's stupidity magnified.

promiscuous:  good point, the "ladies" who sleep with these guys definitely perpetuate it.  but if you're gonna come here for one thing, at least be able to say “謝謝你的做愛“ after getting it!

hey calkins,

some very good observations. in regard westerners being loud selfish rude promiscuous etc:

loud, i would have thought the opposite. the chinese like 热闹？

selfish,  the charitable organisations and private and govt donations i think negate this concept.

rude, well perhaps being frank and straightforward allows for better understanding.

promiscuous, it takes two.

"I guess in the end, we can only be ourselves"

sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your question, I just took it as rhetorical.  Yes, I think it's extremely likely a product of growing up in America.

Andrew,

Glad to hear from you again with your thoughts.
The question I asked may strike some people as incredibly obtuse, but I still feel it's worth asking and thinking about--rather than us all simply assuming inherent truth in anything, especially here when we're among people of diverse backgrounds from all over the world.

This may be a minority view, but not all people feel it is inherently wrong for Chinese (or Korean, or Japanese) people to want to exclude foreigners.
And I personally have no problem at all understanding that that often manifests as "not nice behavior", that it can be very hurtful and that in the face of such treatment it becomes very difficult for us to maintain the respect we had, toward people who despite our openness call us names we do not like or otherwise make us feel we are being seen as somewhat less than human.

Thanks for sharing the grounds you find for seeing it as inherently wrong. I found that very interesting and it helps me see better where you personally are coming from on this subject.

You haven't touched on something I kept asking about--you've neither acknowledged nor refuted that your expectations and disappointment could have something to do with growing up American.
I'm still wondering about this.
Any thoughts?

PS.  Calkins, when I landed at Honolulu Airport I went through US immigrations so there was really no mistaking--but is it different when you land in Taoyuan? I honestly don't know.
(You mean "mainland", right?)   (゜o゜)

Hi Andrew,

I live in Taiwan (I'm sure it's the same in China) and can say that there are many westerners who exploit the fact that they are 老外。 Not so much in terms of what's been discussed above, but there are many westerners (99.99% male) who come here for one purpose....to sleep with Chinese girls.  These guys are quite pathetic and they certainly do harm Chinese perceptions of westerners.

These are the guys who have lived here for one or two years and can barely say "ni hao" and "xie xie".  They have no desire to learn the language or the culture, and the majority of them have no respect for the people.  This is very sad, as Taiwanese are extremely welcoming and thoughtful people.

It really is a shame because these guys only perpetuate what most Chinese learn about us from American movies/TV...that westerners are promiscuous, selfish, loud, and rude.

These are the majority of westerners that come here (Taiwan at least), so I think it's very difficult for Chinese to get a fair understanding of who we are.

I don't think this issue can be addressed in terms of all Chinese as a whole.  It's better addressed one person at a time, and as many have said, it will take a long time before the attitudes/behaviours towards westerners change.  I guess in the end, we can only be ourselves.  If people accept us then great...if they would rather treat you as an outsider, then it's time to move on to someone who is more welcoming and interested in sharing with you.  I've found that once I start talking with Taiwanese, they are very accepting and kind.  That doesn't mean they "let me in", but it's a starting point.

A lot of the responses I've gotten from friends is that there may be a distinction made, but if anything one is being looked up to, not down upon or purposely kept on the outside.  Based on these conversations, and in response to the numerous replies above along the lines of "just accept it and enjoy the positive aspects".  Does anyone think "enjoying the positive aspects" is harmful?  I've never been to China and am not familiar with the ex-pat life, but maybe are some 老外's behavior in China who exploit being treated like 客人, and that harms Chinese perceptions of 老外 as a whole, and reinforces this us vs. them distinction?

Orangina, Your point about the more prevalent use in Chinese of titles makes a lot of sense and is really helpful for understanding this, thanks :)

总的来说，我想别人当我是自己人，别永远当我是外人或客人，称呼我老外只是一个例子

hare09,

因为你用中文，我就用中文回答，我也要说对不起我的中文不好。谢谢你给我们的解释。我现在更了解“老外”这个字的意思和好意。因为我的中文不好，我可能误会你的解释，但是，我觉得你可能误会这个问题是什么。不是一个措词的问题。无论说“外国人”，“老外”，“外国朋友”，我觉得这几个称呼都不行。我们讨论的问题是为什么要当我们不一样？比如，为什么要称呼我们“外国朋友”，为什么不称呼我们“朋友”？这个问题就是有些中国人一直都当老外是客人，是外人，不是自己人。你说“你们可别想太多，别误解了。”我觉得我们应该别想太多。但是，我觉得这不是误会。有些中国人当外国人和别人不一样。或者：虽然大家都在说中文，虽然知道这个老外会说中文，还跟他说英文，或称呼他是“外国朋友”不只是“朋友”，觉得惊诧他喜欢中国菜或者会用筷子，等等。这是外国人的真的日常经历。我自己的感觉是这是不应该的，人不应该关一个人是哪国人。

Oh, I understood that Andrew! I just meant that in your case (and mine so far) it was people who had moved away from their native home to yours that were displaying this attitude. So it could be just a little more frustrating.

orangina, I agree with you in general, but I want to clarify a minor point about my situation. Even though I am in the US, I am referring to situations (which happen to be in the US) in which most everyone involved is Chinese and speaking Chinese, and the few 老外 present are speaking Chinese as well, it's almost as if it's the equivalent of being in China.  Everything I've said so far I would say regardless of geographical location.

hare09,

谢谢你的周到评论。

I will continue in English as my Chinese is not good enough yet to convey what I want to say. I thought your point in #3 was very good about why 老外 would sound very natural and intimate to a Chinese person. That is a good point for us non-Chinese to bear in mind.

I think Chinese people use more labels for each other than we do in America. For example I never call my sister "Sister." Her name is Lexie so I call her Lexie. When I not self-employed I did not call my boss "Boss", I called him Marco. Here, using a person's name is respectful. In rare cases where a title is used, it is always accompanied by the person's name. For example, "Judge Smith." Even a teacher is not addressed as "Teacher," but "Ms. Jones" or whatever his or her name is with the appropriate honorific. One thing we definitely do not do is use "foreigner" as a title. So maybe we have different ideas about the feelings conveyed by using titles.

One common thing I here from Chinese people on this subject is that foreigners are guests and are treated differently because they are special. It has already been brought out that in the west we don't point and yell at guests.... But even if that type of behavior were not a factor, it is very tiring to be always a guest in your own home and your own town.

This may be difficult enough to adjust to when you move to another country. (I am planning on moving to China soon, and have been trying to cultivate a calm and philisophical attitude about this aspect of the culture.) In Andrew's case, he actually lives in the country of his birth and is still being treated like an outsider from people who are from somewhere else. That could be frustrating.

But it is also important to notice that everyone who has been discussing their frustrations here have an interest in China and Chinese culture and it seems to me are not about to quit learning Chinese over this issue.

Ask me again in a couple months when I've lived with it for a while and I may have a different attitude!

这个问题我很愿意与大家说说，我的英文不太好，不能用英语说，我就用中文与你们说说关于中国人用“老外”称号外国人这事。

我认为这个词有以下一些意思：

1、有一定的陌生感。 由于在中国的外国人不多，一般的中国人见了外国人会有好奇感和生鲜、陌生感。（特别在最初用这词时）

2、用“老外”二个字来称呼外国人，比用“外国人”这三个字要简洁、省事，而且更上口。举个例子，在上世纪，我们说年份一般都说98年什么的（口语上），一般不太说1998年，也是图个省事，一个道理。

3、其实这点是最重要的，我看很多外国人不理解这个词是因为他们对中国的文化与汉字的不理解。你们知道吗，我们中国用“老”字开头称呼人的词多了，像有些孩子称自己的父母为“老爸”、“老妈”，有些兄妹之间互相称“老姐”、“老弟”，等等，这些都有一定的调侃和亲切的称呼。

以我们中国人的好客热情，称你们为“老外”实在是一种亲昵的称呼！你们可别想太多，别误解了。

我就说这么多，这是我的理解。

aloha Baba, just a quick thanks for explaining.
Yes I really do agree it would be nice.

Zhen,

"though I did want answers to my question from anyone"...

yeah,I thought it was an open discussion,so was just putting in my 2 fen.Sorry if you thought I was sticking my nose in where it was not wanted.

"I'm satisfied that Andrew and I don't agree on this"

..yeah,I realised that.

"I'm sorry you felt like you had to come and steer me off this course"

..I'm sorry if you thought that's what I was doing,which I was not.I was just looking at it from a slightly different angle.I would have enjoyed more debate on the topic but it was late at night and in a way I was more or less agreeing with one of your earlier points which you crossed out for some reason:

But if you can't expect someone to love you, or make them love you, simply because you love them fiercely, why would we expect the Chinese (as Changye said, same thing in Korea, Japan in slightly differing varieties I suppose--but similar attitudes) people to "treat foreigners like fellow humans"--even if in our (your) societies that is the only right thing to do?

...I suppose I was making the point that no matter how convincing an argument one can put forth and how self evident it may appear to one society to be a universal truth,if the other society is not so inclined then I don't think any amount of importuning..trying to pressure them into opening their hearts because you think they should see it as the right thing to do,see it your way,will work in a hurry.There may be many barriers to such a relationship,many valid concerns.On the other hand I thought it was worth looking at the ideal as represented in the pics and was trying to say,hey,in an ideal world,if we could tear down all the barriers,all reasons for mistrust,concerns about preservation of culture,concerns of interference, etc,wouldn't this be nice? As the saying goes,you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar [wonder if there's a chinese equivalent?].I suppose it would be nice to believe that at least deep down,we all have love for our fellow human beings regardless of race.

老外 4 ever

that not means you are an outsider ,just means you are a foreigner .Because you are a foreigner ,they treat you as a guest.

Hi John

I don't know which runs deeper, but I think your observation is basically correct. I readily admit that racism exists in Japan.

Incidentally, I believe that you've already read a news article on this issue.

上海混血黑女孩抗议种族歧视
http://www.jay-z.cn/dp-bbsthread-23840.html

As for "二世" (nisei), there is a good counterpart in Chinese, i.e. 华人 (hua ren), although this word is sometimes used in the sense of "中国人".

The other day, I told one of my Chinese friends that a Chinese guy won a Nobel prize for physics, but he just said to me, "我知道，不过他是个华人".

RJ said:

"Dont stare" your mother hissed into your ear and thus the concept that this behaivior was rude, passed from one generation to the next. What if it wasnt?

Good point RJ. So how did my mom know not to do it?

Changye,

Hmmm, come to think of it, I guess the word "conspicuous" is appropriate, since the Japanese are more subtle.

The attitudes will not be obvious to foreigners, but attitudes of the Japanese toward their own, or of Chinese toward their own, will be clearly felt.

Changye,

In China, generally speaking, people treat you differently depending on whether you are "insider" or "outsider". This tendency is more conspicuous in China than in Japan, at least.

You think so?  I feel it's the opposite. I think the Japanese are just more subtle (or polite) in their discrimination, but the attitudes run deeper.

Both socieities are quite race-conscious, i.e. if you're white or black (or some other obviously non-Asian race), you're going to be viewed as an outsider. The Chinese, however, seem much more accepting of who can be considered Chinese.

Chinese born abroad are still considered Chinese, while Japanese born abroad are nisei, i.e. "not real Japanese." (Former Peruvian president Fujimori didn't even get his name written in kanji when mentioned in the press in Japan.) Chinese that live abroad and come back are members of a special class of Chinese people, whereas Japanese that live abroad too long become "strange" and "less Japanese" as judged by Japanese society. Chinese also seem rather accepting of half-Chinese kids raised in China (they're Chinese), while the Japanese seem less so. [This is the assertion I'm least confident of, but I do have one half-Japanese friend that grew up in Japan.]

These observations are my own, strenghtened by lots of accounts of Chinese, Japanese, and non-Asian friends. Do you think they're off?

Hi rjberki

I've already gotten used to hearing strangers say "How fat!" on the street here in China when they see my chubby dog. Some guys even say "不好看". Of course, I don't have the guts to retaliate by saying "Hey, you're much fatter than my dog!"

Hey Tal, great story. "Dont stare" your mother hissed into your ear and thus the concept that this behaivior was rude, passed from one generation to the next. What if it wasnt? As you say their concept of manners/politeness is so utterly different from the western model.

I have a friend who has quite a prominent beer belly but otherwise he is not really fat. He used to jog every morning when we traveled but in China people would often point at his stomach and laugh (much to my amusement). He gave up running. To me it is refreshing that the Chinese dont let things like this bother them, so they dont think it bothers us. At least that is how I look at it. As Chanelle said, to the Chinese its just an observation.  Or is it?

Hi andrew

I'm afraid that you might be asking for the moon. In China, generally speaking, people treat you differently depending on whether you are "insider" or "outsider". This tendency is more conspicuous in China than in Japan, at least. This "tradition" has something to do with China's long and harsh history and Confucianism.

The most important "insider" for Chinese are "family members", exactly speaking, "blood relatives". So, in a strict sense, even a wife is not "an insider" in a Chinese family. I know several Chinese people who work abroad, and some of them don't send money directly to their spouses, but send to their parents/brothers/sisters.

I imagine that to become "real insider" is not so easy for 老外 in Chinese community. It's possible that you will still remain being an outsider in your Chinese family even if you marry a Chinese woman. Having said that, I personally appreciate your effort to overcome such cultural barriers. I think that it's definitely worth trying.

Chanelle, that is a very good point.  I think that these ladies telling you how "fat you had gotten" was a sign that they were letting you "in".  When Chinese women tell this to other women, it's usually a sign that they are concerned (or care) about your well-being, and it's ultimately a compliment.  That's hard for us Westerners to understand, but it's just another one of those cultural differences. 

These ladies must genuinely like you!  你最近發福了！

I'm sure you've heard Chanelle that being a bit fat was traditionally considered a sign of good health and good fortune in China! I'm sure it's nothing to worry about! ;)

You make a good point phil, it's a big world. For every person who's rude, there's another who's lovely, and I have met very many lovely Chinese people. I wouldn't want anyone to think life here is all negative.

Tal, that is an interesting anecdote.

I can be completely wrong here, but my experience with Chinese over the past 2 years is that "in general" "they" seem to be more enthusiastic / impulsive in their reactions than for instance Dutch. So when they see a laowei they will shout it to all their friends etc.

Sunday, I bought flowers at the same store where I always go and I am very friendly with all the ladies there and I am sure they don't mean any harm to me. Over the summer I gained 2 kg (4 jin but that sounds worse :-P). So all the ladies discussed how fat I got and even told me, when they saw me again. I believe (similar to the laowei thing) that this is just an "observation" and hope there are no negative thoughts / feelings behind that.

Personally, I'm interested in Chinese culture but have little interest in being accepted by anyone that doesn't want to accept me.  The way I see it, it is a big world.  Even if 90% aren't willing to give me a chance, that leaves millions that would.  If someone wants to shut me out, well, that's his or her loss--not mine.  Yes, I do on a certain level hate it when Chinese people point at me and say 老外, but I just remember these actions really don't amount to anything important in my life.  Furthermore, I feel differences are half the fun of encountering a different culture.  If it was harmony all the way, I probably would want to gag myself with a spoon. 

Tal, you hit the nail on the head here:

"Because their concept of manners/politeness is so utterly different to the western model."

I was once slightly annoyed because a student told me that Chinese are more polite because they are indirect when they want something.

OK, here's more fuel for the fire, (or whining, depending on your point of view.)

I was born and grew up up in a small industrial town in the north-west of England. When I was a child there were I think almost no foreigners there.

There were plenty of "foreigners" in the nearby big city of Liverpool of course, and I can actually remember the first time I ever saw a black person, (one day when as a small boy I was taken to the city hospital to have an X-ray.)

Suddenly before me was a black nurse, and I was amazed. I'd seen black people on TV of course, and in photographs, but seeing 'in the flesh' was very different. I can still remember being shocked quite literally by the contrast of her pale fingernails against the dark skin, the ghostly paleness of the palms of her hands, the lighter skin on her knuckles and elbows, the shocking whiteness of her teeth, the tightly coiled coal black hair.

I must have been just gazing and gazing at her. "Don't stare!" my mother hissed into my ear, (I'm sure when the nurse had left the room for a moment,) and I never did again.

Thereafter I can recall seeing gradually more and more people in the town whose ancestry was clearly not Anglo-Saxon. Sometimes schoolboy friends would tell each other of sightings, (sometimes I regret to say, unpleasant words would be used, words learned from American TV.)

I suppose over those years there was an increasing amount of immigration into the UK from countries once part of the 'British Empire', some of it into our little town. Gradually there were streets where most of the residents came from India or Pakistan, Chinese 'takeaways' appeared, the occasional turbaned head could be seen amongst the crowds in the local market.

And yet, throughout all this, I personally cannot remember a single time when even kids would stare as a group at the appearance of a black person on the street, pointing and nudging each other, enjoying the chance for a good gawk and free entertainment. It just simply was not in us to be that rude, even if there was some impulse inside you to do that, it would be stilled by some sense that it was just wrong, that this was a person before you, however different their appearance.

My point is that this kind of feeling is absent from the great majority of (mainland) native Chinese people, (because their concept of manners/politeness is so utterly different to the western model.)

(I am not by the way suggesting that the UK, then or now, is some kind of paradise free from racism or from racial conflict. Above I am talking generally about my own experience and the kinds of feelings I was aware of in my childhood about people whose appearance was 'foreign' and/or different from the norm.)

Don't know if I needed to say this or not, but I don't think it's okay to say "laowai" or "gaijin" to every Caucasian foreigner you pass by in the street, to stare and point and whisper. If I saw a kid doing that I would reprimand him and try to tell him why it's not okay. I do not consider it acceptable at all and of course all people should be treated as people, as individuals with personalities.

In a discussion here from months ago I mentioned Japan 30-40 years ago used to be more that way. People didn't know better I guess, but they were just plain impolite. They would openly stare and point, grownups and children alike. Kids would always be shouting at you in the street "Haro haro!" "Gaijin!" etc (gaijin is still used though, often in a narrow-minded way unfortunately). I even used to get the open staring and whispering treatment for speaking English in public and I'm nothing but Japanese.

When I said I thought more interaction with foreigners would bring the kind of changes seen in Japan since (maybe not necessarily warmer toward foreigners, but seeing foreigners around just isn't new to anyone in most areas; what's to stare at?)--I meant really the kind of interaction I had which is going to school with kids from other countries. Not just learning to speak English well enough to strike up conversations with random strangers, but growing up with them.
But I know that couldn't happen on a scale in proportion to the general population that could have immediate significant impact, especially away from cities like BJ or SH.

tvan, Perhaps this is what you're addressing, but just in case, to clarify, the issue I'm bringing up isn't about being a 老外 or not, I know I always will be.  I'm more referring to the treatment of us 老外 as outsiders and not just regular people (as opposed to the US where foreigners are still foreigners, it's just not brought up constantly, and they tend not to be treated like outsiders). I think I wasn't precise enough with my words in previous comments.

I lived in China for six months and Taiwan for a few years.  I was always a 老外, still am a 老外, and always will be a 老外.  Personally, it doesn't bother me. 

Andrew, I would agree that what others say. However good you get at Chinese, and however much you study the history and culture, you're not Chinese. Even I am guilty of referring to my fellow countrymen as "them". "They don't get it". "Why are English people so crazy",etc. And I'm very British! If I can think elements of British/English/Western culture are absurd, imagine what it is like if you are an immigrant.

Hi Andrew,

Right, and we still don't agree on whether or not "that American ideal" is self-evident, universal truth. And that's okay.

Hi Baba,

I'm satisfied that Andrew and I don't agree on this, and though I did want answers to my question from anyone who has insights, I don't really want a debate here. But of course such answers would turn into debates. I'm sorry you felt like you had to come and steer me off this course ... !

(OK, back to work now.)

Changye, that helps (however slightly) to put it in perspective, thanks.

zhenlijiang,

"Why is it so wrong for the Chinese, or Koreans, or Japanese, to want to exclude foreigners."

..I think that's a very deep question that can be looked at from a lot of angles and it hinges to a degree on what is implied by the term "wrong" and what that means to different people.One could talk of wisdom,ethics,international law,human rights,philosophical viewpoints,religious beliefs,etc and have a jolly old debate about it [which I think could be very interesting to see what came out],however I don't want to stay up all night giving my views on that.I'd rather look at it from a different angle and just say,hey,aren't these two pics beautiful?:

Like it or not, "distinction" is definitely one of China's long traditions (and cultures), which are deeply rooted in the society. There is a clear line (or more clear line than that in some other countries) between family members/non-family members, communist party members/non-members, urban dwellers/peasants, Han people/ethnic minorities, rich/poor ............. etc. They have so many "distinctions" in China and can't easily solve problems caused by this tradition, let alone 老外 problem. You have to live with this.

Hi Zhenlijiang,

I have nothing more to say regarding why I leveled that criticism, my reasoning doesn't go any deeper.

I recognize you admit the possibility of contradiction, but it is interesting you presuppose the existence of "children's rights", which sounds like some form of universal truth.

I think the word 老外 in and of itself isn't part of the problem, rather, I think its gratuitous application is.

andrew,

I did think of that,but then I thought about how often the tendency of the really forced unnatural politically correct stuff tends to be much longer and waffly [but hey,I know that some of the changes to speech have had very good intentions...just some of it gets a bit far fetched and forced at times].I did mean to ask you/others for suggestions.Amongst the joking I can see a point to how the language itself influences a state of mind/a way of thinking about something.With Chinese culture having such a strong sense of tradition I would predict that they're not overly likely to make modifications to their language for the sake of a foreigners sense of political correctness in a hurry,but I really don't know..it's more my impression.Am I right[that the political correct thing is not a phenomenon in China and also unlikely to catch on anytime soon]? Do you think if the term 老外 was changed 【 as 外 。。does also have the meaning of outsider...even when it is in another word like 老外 I presume it would be hard to escape that meaning being there] it would be a starting point that would help?

I did go willingly into the community though, and I edited my post above to say, I would say the same things even if I went to China.

Also, please be clear, it is not American ideals, it is this particular ideal.  There are aspects of Chinese culture I consider superior to the American counterpart.

I suppose because then the American ideals would apply; you're at home. You are not someone who went willingly into a foreign country and (I detest whining, but I can sometimes sympathize with complaints) is saying the people there ought to change their ways.
Then again, I also think there are times (for instance if children's rights are being violated, etc.) when that kind of criticism is called for, so I totally contradict myself on that point.

Not all people would take that particular (added after I read your reply. The only American ideal I refer to throughout is this one, but you're right, it's confusing.) ideal as self-evident, universal truth. Me, like I said above, I was educated to think of that as the "right" way to be, the decent way to be--despite the reality and truth when people get honest about their fears and prejudices.
I don't think it is self-evident.
But I can understand how other people do.

I guess we simply don't agree here.
I guess I'm still curious (because I don't agree about the self-evident-ness) to hear the reason. Why is it so wrong for the Chinese, or Koreans, or Japanese, to want to exclude foreigners.

bababardwan, or how about simply "person/人" or "friend/朋友", no need to go beyond that unless the situation really calls for it    (i know you're j/k, but i wanted to make a point)

Stating the obvious here,but the question:

"always a 老外?"

..also contains the answer:

老。。always

外。。outside/foreigner

...so it makes me wonder if China will eventually go the way the west[not suggesting that it should mind you] has in terms of taking up political correctness [like RJ I'm not a fan of that whole movement] and that it will only cease to be the case that you're always a 老外 when the term is replaced by something like the Chinese equivalent of: most esteemed friend who was born overseas and who we are now blessed to have amongst us as one of us.敬仰生海外现在幸福一起朋友们【ok,I know that's terrible unnatural chinese..but when is politically correct stuff otherwise?].ps j/k..I know 老 really has another connotation here.

just saw your edit... how does it change everything? The wall dividing 中国人 and 老外 still stands even while they are in 国外

And if I were in China, I would say the same thing.

Zhenlijiang,

Really, I am taking this particular ideal of the US as a universal truth.  I think it's self-evident.

I live and work in a place with a substantial community, which I participate in.  It's a very positive experience for the most part, although this is a pretty significant drawback.

Regarding "don't let them", I recently decided just that.  Those who I am close to, who have been doing these things, I've actually spoken to, primarily this past week, and most have apparently decided to improve.

Andrew,

Tal, I dont disagree, and I concede that I never stay more than 4 weeks at a time, so I may very well feel differently after 5 years. I did expect your response but I still think it was worth offering a different perspective.

Andrew,

again, I understand your comments and I do think it will change over time. Discussion should be encouraged and I didnt mean to imply that it shouldnt. As you said - "it's a combination of habit, ignorance, curiosity, and misplaced kindness" - not a product of true racial hatred or prejudice. Therefore I will continue to try and not take it so seriously. I am still a little confused how you can be so exposed to this living in the US. Are you referring to contact with in-laws and extended family, china town, or do you just live or hang out in an area where there are many Chinese? They are the lao wai here after all. Im sure you will tell me that they still treat you as the foreigner. This is a product of their attitude. Your attitude can be just as powerful. When they attempt to close you out, dont let them. Easier said than done I know. 

Do bear in mind RJ that my reflections are those of someone who has been living in China for (more than) 5 years now. It's an altogether different experience to brief business trips after which one returns home to a western country.

Perhaps there will be others reading this thread and thinking: "what are these guys complaining about? I went to China on holiday and it was lovely to have children shouting hello at me all the time, being made to feel like a rock star."
Well, the truth is you see, it gets rather old.

I'm learning to accept it with a sense of humor from strangers and people I've just met.  After all, it's a combination of habit, ignorance, curiosity, and misplaced kindness.  I think it's still wrong, ought to change, and is at least worth discussing in a forum like this.  In addition, I will not accept it from people I am close to.  As John said, he chooses to avoid people who give him the English treatment.  To be treated like something other than a person, just like everyone else, by people I consider friends, is something I cannot just accept and laugh off (not based on principle, but based on knowing my feelings).

RJ, there are many things Chinese I am adapting to and that are outside my comfort zone, but I think there's a crucial difference between this one and the others: in all the other cases it's simply a matter of doing things the Chinese way, of being more Chinese. In this case it's accepting that I'm being excluded by Chinese, and there's a limit to how much I will be accepted (mainly based on my appearance, see for example Changye's latest comment).

It's really got nothing to do with validation or being threatened.  I'm a pretty confident person, it's more basic.  I started learning Chinese because I didn't like being left out when certain people close to me all spoke Chinese.  I thought learning Chinese would unlock the possibility of interacting more closely with people.  It's for the most part true I have some great friends who happen to be Chinese, but the opposite is also partly true, as there is definitely some push to keep me out.  That's a bad thing that ought not to be.  My expectations were clearly too high.

John,

"the source of suffering is the refusal to accept the situation".

Yes, that is exactly it. I dont believe hatred is the force behind this behaivior, so I dont let it bother me. I feel like a rock star in China. There are many times the chinese go out of their way to provide special treatment for "westerners" because we are not used to things they are steeled against. There are other times when they think we are tougher, and crank up the volume. One of the things I find refreshing about China is the absence of all the politically correct nonsense that we now have in the US. (Not that these things are inherently wrong, I just think we have become way too sensitive in America.) I am a "lao wai". So what? This is their country. If you whine about it, you just prove to them what a cream puff you really are. Embrace it, learn to navigate it, and above all dont lose your sense of humor and adventure. One should not need validation from the Chinese. One should not be threatened by being a foreigner. It is just a fact. I love China because it is different, because it forces me out of my comfort zone. I think we are being way too thin skinned here.

Changye - I agree with you and thanks for the chuckle. ;-)

Hi tal

You are right. To tell you the truth, I AM actually enjoying the advantage of being "a (stealth) second-rate 老外" in China, hehe. Believe it or not, some of my neighbours still believe I'm a Chinese who comes from 南方, because I speak clumsy 普通话.

I imagine that your country might be in a minority. As far as I know, the 老外 problem exists in some east Asian countries, i.e. China, Taiwan, Korean, and Japan. After all, peoples in these countries don't have many opportunities to see foreign people.

@andrew - wow, all along I thought you must be in China, had no idea you were actually talking about interacting with an overseas Chinese community.

@xiaophil - actually I can't remember what kind of score I gave him! I was one of a panel of judges of course. I think I gave him a generous score for fluency, but a low one for lack of tact, (and totally not addressing the topic properly.)

@changye - as a Japanese my friend, you can 'blend into the crowd', 是不是？ A 老外 never can, and that is the 'big issue'. It's not just a question of being a free language instructor, (though that is definitely a problem.) It's a question of being stared and pointed at when you have a day out somewhere, of not being treated like a person because of the way you look, and Chinese people feeling that it's OK to do that.

As for 'the same tendency exists anywhere', well I'll just say that growing up in England, I was taught that to stare at foreign-looking people is considered very bad manners. To actually speak the word 'foreigner' and chuckle with companions as they pass by would be considered contemptible behavior, but in China, this is common behavior, not just for kids (who I notice are never reproved or chastised for this,) but with many adults. (I am talking about life in the unfashionable end of Guangdong I should mention, not the relatively cosmopolitan jazziness of Shanghai.)

John is entirely right of course. If you do choose to make a life in China, the only answer is simply to accept from the get-go that Chinese people have a completely different concept of manners to the west, and decide that you will simply not care about it.

Andrew,

I just realized I never answered this question:

I want to ask, 7 years later do you still agree with what you said at the end of that blog post: "And that day is simply never going to come."?

Yes. My conclusion can be summed up by the first sentence of that same paragraph: "This is all part of life in China, and it must be accepted."

It sounds almost Buddhist, but the source of suffering is the refusal to accept the situation.

Changye's right... accept what you can't change, and enjoy the advantages.

China will change, but slowly.

Changye has a good point.  Actually, I have had fun in the past by pretending to be people from countries that English isn't their native tongue.  Is this bad of me?  Maybe a little.  But it is fun. 

I don't understand why "老外 in China" is always a big issue. I guess the same tendency probably exists, more or less, in any country (except for the USA?).

The problem is that Chinese people generally think all the western people speak fluent English and often try to "exploit" westerners for learning English. It seems that some western guys have to pay a price for enjoying the advantage of being a native speaker of English, the de facto global common language.

If you hate being treated like a free language instructor, I just recommend you go to my home country, Japan. Probably most Japanese people would be intimidated and try to run away, saying "solly, I kyant supeeku Inglish!", even if you ask for directions in Japanese. You would probably miss Chinese people, hehe.

Hi guys

Why don't you just enjoy your status as a 老外 in China? As a Japanese, "second-rate" 老外 in the PRC, I've always been envious of you Western guys, hehe.

tal

So, how did you rate that speech?  That student is pretty smart.  If you give him a low score, then he can just call you a Western imperialist, and to a certain degree he retains face.  If you give him a high score, whether because of guilt or merit, he obviosly wins.

Or he actually has conviction, which is probably it.

I am Chinese,If you speak fluent Chinese,I would like speak to you in Chinese.Why Chinese people always speak English to others?If they prefer to speak Chinese,I'll speak Chinese happily:)

So Andrew, you're talking about your experience of the Chinese people that live in the US? I think that is a different experience. Definitely my worst experiences with Chinese people have come from interactions with the British Chinese community. Obviously, they're not all bad, but there was one particularly incident that riles me to this day (perhaps because my so-called "friend" didn't stick up for me). However, maybe that's just teenagers being teenagers, but the Cantonese British community certainly are very cliquey. Even second-generation immigrants don't consider Britain their home, whereas I do, which immidiately puts me at odds with them, along with the fact that I am not Cantonese and can't understand a word. However, being half-Chinese meant I wasn't a complete and utter foreigner (e.g. my chinese friend's parents were much more comfortable with me being her friend rather than all her English friends, and were much more trusting of my parents). I think this is more of an immigration issue rather than a Chinese culture issue, however. The problems are the same within many minority groups in Britain.

My experiences in China were much more positive. But I was there as a tourist, so I would imagine it is very different to actually living there. Plus, I am not tall, white and blonde/ginger. I told a few people I was half-Chinese. Some people were really positive, and others just seemed to think it was hilarious that I dare consider a mother from Singapore counting in any way towards Chineseness. I was definitely a laowai. But I wasn't pretending to be anything other.

Zhenlijiang, I just remembered another reason I made the criticism I did.  Besides the fact that I think it's wrong in a general sense, that it's personally hurtful, I would also say that:

This issue, for me, is by far the most difficult part of learning Chinese.  Characters, tones, vocabulary with nothing in common in English, all pale in comparison to having such a hard time actually using the language without people switching to English as soon as one's 老外ness is discovered.

Sebire,

As Tal said, I think it's passed on from generation to generation, and this us vs. them distinction is equally present throughout.  And, it definitely does feel worse since younger people have better English, I think the older people with less English would do the same if they had better English at their disposal, and in my experience they will use it (for example, it happened to me just this past Sunday, in a place where everyone was speaking Chinese, myself included, this elderly lady kept shouting a random English word at me in response to a properly posed question in Chinese).

I live in a place filled with us 老外 (the US), and I've never been to China, so I guess that all the people I interact with, no matter the age are pretty used to dealing with 老外, although I have friends who have only been here for a few weeks.   Maybe in the US the proportion of 老外 who are unfamiliar with Chinese culture/language is high compared to the 老外  in China, which serves to reinforce the distinctions in their minds of 老外 from everyone else?

You say "often didn't seem to count", meaning that you're also often treated like a 老外 on occasion?  I'd love to hear details, I can't imagine what it's like being only half-老外.   (I just saw a news article a week or two ago, about this Shanghainese girl on a Top Idol-like show whose father was African American, and, according to the article, there is some kind of debate as to whether or not she is truly Chinese)

Pretzellogic,

Are you from the US too?  I don't think I really understand your question, or what you're getting at.  The only complaints I've heard from friends who are from other countries is that there are some people who are impatient with their less than perfect English. Of course, there are occasional racist idiots, but these are by no means part of their daily experience, as opposed to what is being talked about in this discussion. Am I missing something?

I thought younger people would be more used to seeing foreigners. I'm imagine that fewer young people would treat you guys in that way than older people? Or maybe it just seems worse because their English is better?

Tal,

There are perhaps a few moments in life when we feel we are being unfairly called upon to account for the crimes of our ancestors

Perhaps this laowai issue would be less of a problem if China had been empired - unless of course, people in Hong Kong have the same problem? Maybe imperialism has its advantages!

What I did find disappointing is that being half-Chinese often didn't seem to count.

andrew_c, I assume you're an American.  I'm curious to know what you tell foreigners to the US about the slights they might receive at the hands of various groups within the US. 

I'd say there are many points in common. In that story I'm just picking out one aspect that may help to illumine the whole scene, considering the whole issue of how Chinese people view us, how they feel about us, in their hearts.

It's my view that these feelings they have are 'bred in the bone', they go so deep that I'd say most Chinese people never even think about them on a conscious level.

I'm sure you've noticed (for example) how naturally and unthinkingly they say ”我们中国“，you might even call it a 固定搭配! When they speak English, many of them will still do this. "Why did you come to our China?"  "Do you like the food in our China?" "In our China, we don't often see foreigners."

They mostly have no consciousness whatsoever how this construction is perceived by 'foreigners' who never speak of our England or our America. They aren't even aware that the subtext is: We're in our country, and it's not your country. They (mostly) have no intention of making you feel this is the meaning, but it is the meaning, and it's embodied in the very words they use.

Hi Tal, I appreciate your story.  It sounds like your experience with this issue is on a completely different level than mine.

Andrew, I agree with you. The only solution for us 老外 however, is to try to train ourselves not to care about it, because believe me it will never go away. It's simply the price you have to pay for choosing to live and/or work in China.

I'm being a bit cold and logical in my previous response.  I guess a more emotional reason for making such a criticism is that the object of my criticism is a very hurtful, disappointing, and discouraging aspect of Chinese culture which affects me personally.  In my opinion: One must get used to it to keep his/her sanity, but that doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be necessary to have to learn to deal with it.

zhenlijiang, I don't believe in cultural moral relativism (sorry typo).

That ideal "that they of course are treated as equals is the given" you described earlier I think is universally a good thing.  On that basis, I say it's a problem that ought to be fixed.

On the other hand, as RJ has pointed out, things could be a lot worse, but I still think it's something worth working on.

Perhaps it's worth remembering that China has a long long history of seeing itself as separate, inherently different from, and (dare I suggest?) superior to 外国 and 外国人. Consider what happened when western powers first tried to establish 'trade' with China. Basically they were told: 'We don't want trade with you, we don't need it. You don't have anything we want and we have everything we need. Now please go back to your own country and don't bother us." (The tragedy of the opium wars was the result, and after that even more recrimination and distrust.)

It's a simplification of course, but is it unreasonable to suggest that this expresses something very fundamental about the Chinese character? Something that was there then and is still there? Something that may in fact always be there?

Sebire asks is it a generational thing? The answer? Yes! It's passed on from one generation to the next!

I have so many personal anecdotes that I could relate to illustrate this subject that I almost never know which one to pick, but let me treat you to another of my China moments.

I teach English in China for a living, (some of you will already know that,) and of course I am often called upon to judge English 'speech contests'. (These are de rigueur in China I'm afraid, an immensely tedious ordeal for native speakers required to be judges I would guess, but regarded as highly meaningful and worthwhile by the Chinese.)

Anyway a couple of years back there I was in the front row listening to speech after speech on one subject ("Will science save or destroy the world?", not bad as these things go) and up comes a tall lad who as he began to speak fixed his eyes firmly upon me, the only 老外 present. For perhaps a minute it was just like he was speaking to me alone. And why? Because his speech began something like this:

We Chinese have great reason to fear the western science. As we all know, foreigners came to our China in the 19th century and burned down the summer palace after looting its treasures and stealing our heritage, something we Chinese can never forget. Perhaps we should always be wary of the western culture and its inventions. But today we see modern medicine healing the sick and saving lives, etc etc etc...

There are perhaps a few moments in life when we feel we are being unfairly called upon to account for the crimes of our ancestors, for things that happened long before we were even born, things that might just as well have happened on another planet for all the connection they have to us. For me, this was one of them.

These days (during the '20 questions'), when we get to 'why did you come to China?', I sometimes for fun and variety will respond: 'to atone for the crimes of my ancestors'. Maybe it's even true in some numinous way I'm not aware of!

Andrew,

I think it's ultimately a problem with Chinese culture that ought to be fixed.

I really can't agree with you here. I don't live there of course. I've never been and never will be a laowai, gaijin or whatever in an Asian country (I'm a foreigner in China, but not laowai obviously). I've never experienced how hard it is to live and adapt in a foreign country whose language is your second/acquired.

But who are any of us to say this?

Hi, Chanelle.

It seems that European aquisition of antiques is a sensitive subject in China. It wasn't always as fair as the trade you were attempting. I'm told the Chinese sometimes still call the British "pirates".

Here in the UK, I have some exquisitely carved Chinese chests and a desk. They are Chinese, but they aren't very old. They're very good replicas. Twice, I've noticed Chinese friends couldn't help but glare at them, despite trying to be polite. I explained the truth and showed the hidden modern markings and all was smiles again.

Of course, I'm just guessing, your shopkeeper might have had entirely different motives.

Yes :-). Actually something else happened that day as well. Half a year ago a saw a "late Qing dynasty desk" in an antique store. I loved it and went back to see it again. Asked for the price, but my husband did not like it too much, so I thought to "let it go". I returned to the store half a year later (since i could not get the desk out of my mind) to find that they still had it!! So,  I wanted to buy it, asked again for the price (which doubled) and they said it was "just sold that day". I could buy two other ones of lesser quality though. So, I negotiated a price, but the quality turned out to be so bad I did not want it. And it was just not the same thing....Tried everything I could to get the original one, but they just did not want to sell it. So I gave them my card+my price, said think about it and call me when you change your mind (that often works).

Yesterday (2 weeks later) I returned (do not ask me why, and they did not call me, but I had the feeling they were just lying to me the other day) and guess what, the silly desk is still there! I brought my driver with me and said: this is my price: "get me the desk"! The people in that store are really difficult (to me) and I have the feeling it has something to do with me being a "waiguoren" and they simple did not want me to buy that desk. Why otherwise lie like that? So what I did is let my driver do most of the talking, join the conversation in Chinese at important moments and we sat ourselves on a ming chair not willing to move unless it is WITH the desk :-p They called their laoban and they discussed that the difficult laowei was there again. Finally she gave in after I said: add a 100, but deliver to my place and my time is precious and I am not sitting here the whole day! So decide quickly!(trust me I would never do anything like this in Europe but here it is seems to be the way it is done)

An hour after I got home they brought me the desk (200 RMB below the original negotiated price). I asked my driver, why did they do that? He had no clue either...

Doing busines like this for me is just something I cannot understand...

Sebire: My only thought on it being generational is that younger people tend to have better English, so they have another tool at their disposal to treat 外国人 like outsiders.

Chanelle: again!???

Yesterday I unwillingly caused a scene at an Ikea. The machine who gives out tickets was all in Chinese and I asked for help, because I did not understand which line to choose after I got my ticket. 2 Service employees took me to a different line and someone thought I skipped a line. He started screaming that d*amn waigoren and kept doing that for about 10 mins. It was not so friendly but (excellent opportunity to learn something new) and to be honest I am glad it happened because no Chinese ever queues properly and I have been pushed and shoved aside a lot! :-/p so me vs. chinese 1-0

Is it a generational thing?

Brando,  

It's not an issue of friendliness.  And it's not a question of Chinese people's intentions (I'm sure you guys have the intentions of making us feel warm or welcome).  I think in 99% of cases I've encountered no one was deliberately trying to exclude me, or anyone else.

However, the fact of the matter is that they still are excluding us 老外.  It's a common problem; I didn't make it up, see John's blog post from 2002.  So, saying not to worry about it is not helpful.  老外 constantly have the fact that they are fundamentally different from Chinese people shoved in their face, in both explicit and implicit ways, on a daily basis.  In the US, this kind of treatment of "foreigners" (the word "foreigner" is used much less in English than in Chinese) is really exceptional, and would be condemned by most people.

I think all of us are here, myself included, ultimately out of appreciation for some aspect of Chinese culture/language/people.  However, I (and perhaps others here will agree with me) think that a major 缺点 of Chinese culture is the perception and treatment of 外国人 by a large percentage of 中国人.  We as individuals need to get used to it because things aren't going to change overnight. On the other hand, I think it's ultimately a problem with Chinese culture that ought to be fixed.

we  are Respect for your language!!

and  speak english  will   make you feel   warm!!

above all  chinese  is  friendly!  dont worry  about it!

hehe,yeah

i am about ready to put my foot through this computer.

you caught me Baba. With all the connection problems I forgot I was on her computer :-)

youre too quick for me. I still cant get on mine so

Zhen

you are right. I guess I read your post too quickly. I only wish we did follow the ideal here.

RJ (sock puppet version)

comment deleted by author

deleted

RJ--that's what I meant!

I said
(and whatever actual problems do exist, the fiercely defended ideal is that they of course are treated as equals) is the given,

I know what it's like in the US.

The phenomenon under discussion is to some degree human nature and to some degree Chinese in nature. To whatever degree it is due to naivete', that part will diminish with contact, even though it may take the handing off to a new generation to really shift. In all this however we should not miss the fact that this is a rather minor form of "unwelcome" behaivior. Compared to the treatment of minorities elsewhere in place and time, I would say we are treated pretty well in China.

@Zhen - the ideal in America may be to accept all, but the truth is on the street you will experience a wide spectrum of behaivior and ideals when it comes to foreigners. Dont assume its some sort of utopia here, it is not. Our history if full of the strife immigrants have expeienced as they tried to assimilate. The Chinese included.

@john 

I did enjoy the blog laowai 4ever, good one.  I've been thinking about zhenlijiang's comments about the problem diminishing with greater contact with the West.  As I said in my original post, my most uncomfortable moments are with people who have had plenty of contact with English speakers, so I am not so sure.  Some of these conversations result in a kind of battle over which language we are going to speak.  I am happiest on my daily visits to the market where no one tries to speak English to me; no one seems to care where i come from or how long I have been learning chinese .. 

哈哈哈！John, that blog post of yours is spot on. (Erm... that's a possibly outmoded UK expression meaning totally correct by the way.) Absolutely love Nicki's comment at the bottom of the page.

I was incredibly naive about these matters before I actually came to China. I really should have done my homework. Too damn late now!

I'm quite possibly an atypical and ornery individual, something of a maverick, but if you want to know the truth, learning Chinese is for me mostly just an intellectual exercise I indulge in just to keep myself sane living in this country. It has the added benefit that I can (mostly) avoid being cheated by taxi drivers and can now cope in (most) of life's *essential situations* with gradually decreasing rudeness and/or hilarity from the natives.

In terms of avoiding the '20 questions', in terms of being able to walk down the street or ride a bus without being stared at, in terms of getting to the door of my home without hearing 外国人 come out of the mouth of some school kid or old lady, in terms of 'real' communication with the Chinese, I actually gave up some time ago, (and the more Chinese I learn, the less inclined I am to change my mind.)

Light:  That's a great suggestion. I'll try that out, it sounds like a nice compromise, and I am certainly not in a position to claim I've mastered Chinese.

Yeh.. I only spent a month in China but I did find that when people knew I was Australian, it was somehow so much better than being from any other non-Asian country and our relationships were better for it. Funnily enough, I didn't encounter many situations where I was cornered into speaking English.. I found the opposite infact because my Chinese is so poor, I always found it nearly impossible to find someone with good enough English skills to be able to communicate with.

Answering the "is Chinese hard?" question is much like haggling.. you need to do it with a cheeky smile in such a way as you are not offending them but also implying that you may also be joking, without giving too much away. :) I always answer pretty much the same way though, "Learning anything is easy but mastering it is hard." or something to that effect.. it generally goes down pretty well with the people I know.

@Andrew

Our daughter has a trick to avoid speaking English - she says something like 'I am from Bratislava..'  Pick a lesser known European country and hope that the person speaking to you does not speak the language!  Pick a city rather than a country so that on the off-chance that they speak the national language you could claim you only speak the local dialect.

andrew_c,

Sorry, don't have any such China experiences of my own to share.

I do think especially for someone going to China (or another East Asian country) from North America, where all your life you've simply accepted that your own country embraces immigrants of all races from all over the world and the idea that they will of course assimilate (and whatever actual problems do exist, the fiercely defended ideal is that they of course are treated as equals) is the given,

the "always an outsider?" question is maybe more painful to deal with.
Could it be do you think that your expectations in that aspect are generally higher, because of the ideals your country is proud of and lives by?

After years of living life in and loving (multiracial, but not in the same way NY is) Paris, speaking the language and of course respecting the culture, my (caucasian) American friend still feels she will never belong there. That isn't too surprising really. She doesn't get the 20 questions. She doesn't get any gratuitous "you speak such wonderful French!" either, haha. She does get people absolutely refusing to speak French with her even though she's speaking very competent French. The issues are not the same as those you face in China obviously (nothing to do with outward appearance, and Parisians don't see Americans who live in their city as "laowai").
At the same time, in an environment like Paris you'll probably also find a significant number of people who you can be friends with, who'll just treat you like a person, much more easily.

But China esp in the largest cities will change enormously in the coming decades won't it. People will become accustomed to having contact with non-Asian foreigners. For many it will eventually cease to be so darn special. Maybe in a few years your outlook will change dramatically ...

lzxmshuai, I appreciate your information.  I understand what you're saying and agree with some of it.  #2 is currently true, but it won't be forever, I'm interested if that line of reasoning "your Chinese is not better than Chinese people" will still be applied to me anyway later on, regardless of my actual abilities. I suspect so.

John,  I am glad people like you have already gone through this, so I can learn from your experience.  Thank you!    I really like your story about you and your wife :)  Fortunately, there are a few exceptions in my life as well. I want to ask, 7 years later do you still agree with what you said at the end of that blog post: "And that day is simply never going to come."?

RJ, so true...  and so sad.  I really don't want to be treated like a monkey in a zoo. When I make mistakes, I don't want to be gratuitously complimented anyway. I really want Chinese people to be annoyed at me for my Chinese being bad! I want to be laughed at and made fun of, not just ignored or spoken English to!  And every time I hear "哇！！好厉害！！！" in response to some random 老外 saying "Nee how!" it almost makes me want to cry.

RJ's point brings up another question: How does everyone respond to the (rhetorical) question "你觉得中文难吗？"  I often try to give an honest, nuanced response but pretty much every single person who asks isn't looking to actually hear my personal experience and really just wants to me to 承认, "Yeah, it's too hard, especially for a foreigner like me. You Chinese are so smart, us 老外 simply cannot compare".   I don't want to reinforce their stereotypes, but being honest isn't working for me either.

I have to say one thing that is extremely silly and also sad is the (positive) stereotypes towards 犹太人.  Sometimes when people find out I am Jewish, it's as if something clicks and my being able to speak Chinese make more sense since “犹太人都很聪明", which is ridiculous.

Chanelle, I've seen crazy people like that in America too. They're an exception though, or at least it's not considered acceptable in general. I hope the same is true of the guy in the train station.  The real problem, I think, is that it's culturally acceptable to treat 老外 differently than other people.

On a lighter note, I wish I could be a Dutch 老外 like you and use that as an excuse not to speak English.   I was able to experience that kind of thing temporarily one time.  I was in Portugal two years ago.   When I went to Chinese restaurants there the only vegetarian option was something like "Salada Chinês".  All the tofu dishes had meat.  So I tried to special order in English, but the 服务员 could only speak Portuguese and Chinese.  They still treated me like a 老外, but at least they had no choice but to speak Chinese to me!

I like John's story :-).

Actually my encounters with "Chinese" are quite positive. I must say that when I am addressed as a foreigner I say: Hey, I live in Nanjing so I am Najingren! Most of the time people speak Chinese to me and vice versa and rarely start speaking English. Or I say I am Dutch and we only speak Dutch...

Last week I had a less positive experience. I was in line to return train tickets and a very rude person cut the line just when it was my turn. He pushed me aside in a very rough manner (oh how I love China!). Well I returned the favour  (I became much braver in here) and then he started started screaming about those damn foreigners etc. I felt a bit awkward since I was the onbly foreigner between thousends of people waiting for their tickets and figured it might not be the best time for an argument :-).

That week I also was in a cab and me and the driver discussed Chinese language. Out of the blue he screamed "tamade" and I told him I knew that one and mentioned a few others. Humor and foul mouthed language is universaly appreciated.

ps. the new ticket vending machines in Shanghai station are fantastic!

John,

Thats whats great about learning Chinese and the Chinese culture. Its the getting there that is fun, and since you will never "be there", getting there will last a very long time.

You always hear how the Chinese love it when you speak Chinese. Yea, if all you can say is "ni hao" like a monkey at the zoo, but I dont think they want us speaking serious Chinese. Its supposed to be too hard. They are proud of that. There are exceptions of course.

Andrew,

Good questions. I once wrote a blog post about my frustrations dealing with this very issue: laowai 4ever

Answers to your questions:

1. Yes, there will always be some people that insist on talking to you in English no matter what, even when their English is embarrassingly bad, and your Chinese is clearly very functional. It's up to you to figure out how to deal with these people. I just choose not to make friends with them, and to minimize my interactions with them.

2. Almost always. I remember one Chinese girl in particular I met, at a low point when I had almost given up on meaningful relationships with Chinese people. She asked none of the typical foreigner questions, and she was smart and fun to talk to. She just treated me like a regular person. I ended up marrying her. :)  (no joke!)

(And, just in case this gives you hope, my wife tells me that she frequently "forgets" I'm a foreigner. This is not because my Chinese is native-like. What happens is when I don't know a word, or don't know something that all Chinese people our age know, she gets annoyed, and I have to remind her I'm doing my best in a second language and adopted culture...)

Chinese speak English to you because...

1, they want to improve their English=他们想要提高他们英语

2, your Chinese is not better than Chinese people,so they still think you are a 老外,so...=你的中文说得始终没有中国人好，所以，他们选择跟你说外语，因为他们仍然当你是个老外，

3, enthusiastic=他们比较热情，把你当作客人，以你为先。

4, Vanity=虚荣，觉得在公共场合说外语比较时髦

almost they can`t face you as a Chinese,because your foreigner face...but...wish your Chinese better...=他们不太可能把你当作中国人，因为你始终有一张外国人的面孔，只能希望。。。你的中文能越来越好

(oh..my poor English....wish you can understand)

That's really helpful information, and more reassuring than my present experience.

I am surprised about your work colleagues.  I cannot easily imagine many of mine speaking English with me even if my Chinese were better than their English.  Anyway, I am hoping I will reach that tipping point within the next year, and am curious as to what will happen when it does.

One thing I am disappointed about is "There are thirty year veterans here who are outsiders."  Those of you who have a very advanced or even native-level of fluency in Chinese, and basically live the majority of your life using the Chinese language,  do you still feel like an outsider?

@andrew

People who cannot speak English will speak with you as though you speak Chinese, no 20 questions.  That is the majority of the population. Almost all daily encounters in China are of this kind.

The 'problem' (I think I know what you mean) may occur with work colleagues.  But it is quite simple really - if they speak English better than I speak Chinese we speak English. If I speak Chinese better than they speak English we speak Chinese.  

But in China I am rarely 'forced' into English (that is more a problem in my home country); some people here are reluctant to display their lack of English.

Even my students (I teach over here); most use at least some Chinese, at some stage, talking to me, some (weaker in English) use more.

I'm not at a stage of worrying about whether i will ever be anything but an outsider.  I doubt that I will ever be at that stage.  There are thirty year veterans here who are outsiders.     

And, I would love to hear some insight from the other direction:

If you are a Chinese person who interacts with fluent non-Chinese speakers of Chinese, do you talk to them the same way you would anyone else?  If not, why?