Translation and Language Learning

Changye, actually if any Chinese dialect qualified as a separate language, it seems like Cantonese would fit the bill.  However, I'd bring around a million soldiers and a few thermonuclear weapons before pushing the point.

Hi tvan

if the written languages were mutually intelligible (generally true for Chinese)

Actually, written Chinese dialects (and putonghua) are more different from each other than generally thought. Below are some basic Cantonese sentences. I believe that most local people of Beijing don't understand exactly what they mean.

佢 食緊 蛋糕，我 諗。
我 高 過 佢。
我 畀 錢 你。
我 對 你 唔 住。
我 食 飯 添 。
我 食 飯 先。
食 唔落。
架 車 係 佢 嘅。
佢 有 一 架 車 。

sebire, re:

"My linguistics friend tells me the difference between a language and a dialect is politics,"

my daughter is a linguistics major and I was talking to one of her professors who expressed a very similar opinion.  According to him, if the spoken forms are mutually unintelligible, they are different languages.  It goes without saying how explosive this is/would be in China.  However, he didn't have a real good answer for me if the written languages were mutually intelligible (generally true for Chinese), but not the spoken forms. 

I'm not sure how much faith to put into these academic cubby holes.  Universal linguistics (e.g. in the sentence "你好," 好 is a verb!) seems to be anything but.

Hi paulinurus,

Your suggestion is not bad, especially since Lao Wang is a sometime businessman. But 你在哪儿发财 is used at least as often by friends who are not getting rich or even necessarily working. So we can render it as a more generic "what's new," "how's it going," etc.

If you want to ask "How's business?" you can say 你最近生意怎么样？

Howard, one other thing regarding dialects/language - as Pete says above, the preservation of languages is about the preservation of culture. The dialect my mother speaks as her first language is part of a unique culture in that part of the world that has been absolutely swamped by Chinese migration. This culture has been all but wiped out - I took my grandmother to the Peranakan museum in Singapore (well-worth visiting, btw) and it she was looking at all the stuff saying "oh, I used to use this as a child", and now all of them are just museum pieces. I think that perhaps Chinese people are more ready to accept the loss of this culture for the sake of political stability and economic advantage than perhaps Westerners are. Singapore is a migrant country, and people need to speak the same language, and I think many Singaporeans accept that.

Howard,

My linguistics friend tells me the difference between a language and a dialect is politics ;)

I have little opinion on Welsh - the original discussion I had was based on public expenditure on translation in general, based on an article I had read in the newspaper where a Punjabi woman had been living in Britain for 40 years and could not speak English. The point rather was about the cost/benefit of translating government documents into Welsh when the simple fact is that most Welsh people can indeed read and speak English. Moreover, you periodically hear about ridiculous Welsh translations such as that sign that got turned into someone's out-of-office message, and no one noticing until the sign was up.

Anyway, if people want to learn Irish/Welsh etc. I think that's good for them, but it shouldn't push out other foreign languages. The UK made a stupid mistake making languages non-mandatory after 14.

Wenlin has a very handy feature in giving you compounds that start with or include the character in question. Maybe Pleco does this too...?

It does! Pleco is very nice. It takes less than 15 secondes to start my old ipaq and look-up a word.

Pete,

老王，最近在哪儿发财呢？ Wouldn't "How's Business" a very common Western expression be more closely related to the Chinese text rather than "What have you been up to", which my Chinese friends simply say "你最近怎么样“。

Seems to be Chinese people tend to talk about money a lot, and the common day to day talk often relate to money.

btw, good thing you don't have Letterman in China. He told a joke yesterday which will get you fuming...

' Ya guys watching the Gay Parade on Thursday?

they're having a silent auction

prize is Liza M '

 A-wenching?

Hi Pete! Great post, rich thread.

I　really understand where you're coming from. As a hobby, and in order to keep my Japanese alive, I translate Japanese "anime", I've translated about a hundred episodes now and still with each episode I keep back to these same questions : Am i too close to the literal translation, is that too far. Part of me would want to just give a transcription of the Japanese, as the original will always be better than what i eventually come up with. We actually did it as a special April's fool joke.

I think your job is easier as your purpose is to teach the language, not to teach how to translate it to people who don't care at all about it, you can - and you do - add translation notes, give more cultural background to phrases that are tough to translate.

I can't start and explain a yojijukugo (the Japanese chengyu - well the ones that are in 4 characters) in my 2 line subtitles, (most of)the leechers don't care at all. So I have to find a "rough" translation and it always pains me a lot.

So, i'd say don't torture yourself in seeking out that golden translation, the one that nails down every aspect in both languages, most of the case it won't exist, and your audience do care a lot about the language, most of them even love it.

Hi howard,

A-wenching indeed!

As a matter of fact, maybe that would've been the best translation 我泡妞去了.

Brilliant ;-)

All

I think we all seem to basically agree! We all have our own methods and ways of improving out understanding.

My final shot re literal versus idiomatic translations (?)

If we have a literal translation (as well) i actually found it very very useful to have an insight into Chinese sentence structure. for example time parts (usually) come directly after personal pronoun, and similar for other parts of the language. By having literal tranbslation (which may seem funnY to us) it allows me to make further sentences using the same structure (substitution methods.) It also gives me a better understanding of my Chinese friends when they speak English, my brain actually reorders their English sentences. This was more so in Korea where we have back-to-front structure.

Languages changes throughout the ages: another example Star wars Yoda speaks english in a different structure BUT this is exactly how Old English was also spoken, "A wenching I will go", plus the redoubling of personal pronouns for emphasis for example "I am going to macDonalds ME" Which is very Manchester Dialect too.

I'd like to have a beer 'n' chat about all these issues, "t'would make for a merry repast serrah!, what say thee"

To Sabire

The British Gov translates stuff into Welsh because we are trying to promote these languages (also a EU directive too) Welsh is an oficial EU language and more people speak Welsh than you think. Remember Welsh, Cornish, Gaelic etc are Languages NOT Dialects.

Howard

Pete

sounds like we are in agreement, so whats the row all about then? :-) How do you say Cat's pajamas in Chinese? Do they have a similar expression?

Oh, and I do use several electronic dictionaries extensively. Pleco is definitely on my wish list.

One of the best Translations I have ever met is the translation of "My fair lady" into German. Why was it good?

It took the London-dialect from Eliza and transformed it into Berlin-dialect. It kept the references to the English language*. It translated puns into German, thus finding suitable new ones. This is a hell lot of work to do and people who can achieve this should be highly respected.

Actually, I perceive Pete's translations similarly.

Although I like to give for newbies the literal translation, I can perfectly accept, what Pete is doing and in fact, my fiancée sometimes checks the translations ("hmmm, how have THEY translated it ... mumble... mumble ... 对 ") and is most of the times very happy with it.

*)"An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other
Englishman despise him."

->

"Ein Engländer wird, so wie er spricht
gesellschaftlich betrachtet.
Kaum sagt er was, hat ihn
ein anderer Engländer bereits verachtet"

It's cool bro! I like to pop a new spice into our linguistic melting pot from time to time! Dig that crazy Shakespearian rag!

Hi rj

I actually mean either kind of dictionary, as long as it gives you the kind of information we're talking about-- pronunciation, meanings, and compounds formed with the word. Raygo's point is very good. C-C dictionaries are very useful for advanced learners, but I also use English/Chinese dictionaries extensively for translation and study.

Pleco or Wenlin are both handy and easily available. I haven't used Pleco much, but I see that a lot of poddies love it. Wenlin has a very handy feature in giving you compounds that start with or include the character in question. Maybe Pleco does this too...? Anyway, most dictionaries just give ones that start with it.)  As for print dictionaries, I just checked amazon.com and there really were no Chinese-Chinese options, at least in the States.

And let me express again my admiration and respect for the WCLP team. It's an impressive achievement in terms of both educational value and programming ability.

PS Raygo, I would've said "the cat's pajamas," but it's all good, daddy-o. Jive on!

rj, have you considered using an electronic dictionary such as Pleco? It's the bee's knees for anyone serious about learning Chinese.

I consider myself to be still at a low level in learning Chinese and I don't think I could use a Chinese to Chinese dictionary at all.

I rarely use paper dictionaries but when I do I use the Tuttle Concise Chinese-English Dictionary, not hard to get on Amazon I think.

Pete

when you say "dictionary", you mean a paper dictionary? Do you also mean a Chinese to Chinese dictionary? If so, it takes some level of understanding to use one. I dont think a beginner would get much out of this. At your level it would be highly beneficial. I can see that. At lower levels it would be frustrating, time consuming, and possibly misleading. I look up a character by radical and additonal strokes, in the definition there are 3 more characters I dont know, lather, rinse, repeat. By the time I get to the bottom (if ever) I have a far removed patchwork definition of the original quest, and I am late for work. Aiya. At some point in my learning career there will be a tipping point, beyond which the benefit will outweigh the hopelessness, but until I get there, Im not there. No amount of good intention or admonishment from you can change that. I am willing to try though, only this way will I know when Im ready - do you have a link where I could buy one? Amazon US only carries the Chinese/English versions. If not, I will buy one next time I am in China.

Hi rj,

You are correct-- I have learned quite a bit from this discussion. I hope it has been informative for the poddies as well. At least you get a chance to see how your fellow students are learning.

And I believe that we are in agreement on most translation issues. I think most teachers and students see the educational value (and pleasure) in analyzing Chinese compounds such as 国际, and in breaking characters into their component parts. My concern is that dictionaries are better for this than popup annotations. One big benefit of using a dictionary is that by putting in the time to use it, which can be tedious, students really start to "own" the knowledge. I'm not convinced that happens as easily with popups, at least in my own experience.

But as I said earlier, we're trying to provide teaching tools for a variety of learning styles. My personal position is not an issue here. If the popups help people learn, I'm happy.

Hi sydcarten and sebire,

Language preservation is very sensitive. In fact, I think that much of poddies' objections to American slang could be due to the seemingly unstoppable juggernaut that is American pop culture. Hollywood, rap and American advertisements are everywhere. I can sympathize with people's frustration at this onslaught, and their distress at seeing "buddy" or other Americanisms in a dialogue. And I try not to use such phrases unnecessarily. But as an American, those are part of my native language. When the Chinese original calls for slang or colloquialism, I will use the American version.

We can't romanticize the situation of people who face obstacles in their work and studies because they've learned only a dialect. But we can encourage governments to devote resources both to teaching a unified national language and to working to preserve and even enrich the arts and culture of smaller groups.

In fact, this is also relevant to the discussion about slang. I'm no sociolinguist, but slang (such as the use of alphanumeric codes "lol," Gr8, L33T, etc. by tech-savvy young people) is often a way for a small group to establish an identity, a common bond. This can be very frustrating to people who feel left out.

The same effect applies on a larger scale with dialects.  I've often been frustrated to eat dinner at the home of Shanghainese or Fujianese who speak their dialect by habit, even though I only understand Mandarin.

But even still, I'm glad to see dialects persisting. Their expressive powers complement the ever-present Mandarin. Losing them would be a tragedy. And just as with slang, many colorful and useful phrases have entered Mandarin via the dialects.

多谢 Calkins and RJ.I will give it a burl sometime soon.

WLCP also bundles all the expansion mp3's together in one mp3 file - each plays twice with a pause. Very nice for practice. Very easy to transfer to ipod and you have the same mega translation of those as well. So nice.

baba give it a whirl. We may loose it on the next upgrade since Jon and Andrew are busy and dont plan to support it forever. It was hoped that cpod would pick up on the ideas.

btw baba - it only works well in firefox

RJ, 你说得对啊。

WLCP is so much more user-specific and user-friendly.  It really allows the user to study the lessons in a way that best suits his/her needs.

Aside from the typical toggle functions (trad-simp., literal-lexical, pinyin, etc.), it also supports Bopomofo.  I know there isn't a huge market or need for that, but it could be yet another feature that sets Cpod apart from its competitors.

I really hope Cpod considers implementing the additional functions that WLCP provides.

Baba, click on the link in my previous post.

I never looked into WLCP because I perhaps mistakenly was under the impression that it was stopping when there was the last major change to this site.So it's still going and worth downloading? Where should I go to download/check it out?

WLCP is great. One size fits all (all options toggle). Hello Shanghai.

Calkins described what I was trying to say in a much better way. Didn't realize that WLCP already did that.

@tvan, not sure. I'm currently on a basic subscription. :) I was mainly thinking of the PDF, but would be useful beyond that.

I guess my example of "you-good" for ni-hao did suggest a character-by-character breakdown, but that's probably breaking things down too far.

@lechuan, isn't that available now?  Lexical translations via directly provided translations and literal translations via the pop-ups in the expansion and dialogue sections.  Or are you talking about literal in the sense of character-by-character translation?

Lechuan, that would be an extremely useful function if it were built into the site.

It's one of the features that I love about using WLCP with Cpod:

Being able to view all 4 (char., pinyin, literal, lexical) at the same time is a huge benefit.

How about providing both?

ie. Character, Pinyin, Literal, Lexical

• 你好
• ni3hao3
• "you good"
• hello

Learners can then spend more time learning and less time looking things up. Seeing the literal can help to reinforce the lexical (and vice versa).

I don't have a problem with the English per se

It's only when I bump into ones with THAT kind of attitude towards my cultural heritage.

sydcarten

So you are not too keen on the English then :-)

Sydcarten, the funny thing is that my mother's own dialect is itself dying out in Singapore. I think I probably misrepresented her views: She thinks it's a shame, and she certainly supports the moves to preserve it, but doesn't think that the Singaporean government should spend money translating leaflets into that dialect. I think the issue is more taxpayers' money than the issue of language preservation.

I met an Irishman once when I was abroad who was complaining that he couldn't speak any useful foreign languages because he only learnt Irish at school!

Coming from a family with a strong Irish heritage I have always been interested in the Irish language, and have been learning it on and off now for a number of years.

I can't tell you how infuriating it is to people who value their Celtic heritage to hear Anglo-Saxons dismiss our linguistic and cultural heritage as "irrelevant" and "unnecessary" and more or less imply that it is time it disappeared completely.

To me this smacks of the same narrow minded arrogance that the English have used for centuries to eradicate our heritage and identity forever.

I was in fact having a discussion with my mum at the weekend regarding Welsh. She was saying that in Singapore, you use one of the four official languages, and then everyone understands everyone. She sees no reason that other dialects be preserved, and likewise she doesn't understand why the British govenrment waste money translating stuff into Welsh when they can speak English anyway (though I suppose there are a few grannies in Wales that can't speak English, but no doubt there are plenty of grannies in Singapore that can't speak any of the four languages). Clearly the Chinese are just rather pragmatic people.

Lots of interesting comments. Some things I think are being blown out of proportion. Truth be told, Petes style does not interfere with my ability to learn Chinese and if one is resourceful at all, it should not be a problem. Granted, his colorful style occaisionally makes the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up, but hey, its not boring. Maybe we should let him get back to work. Hopefully he will internalize what he has heard and use it all for positive growth.

Having said that, I dont think there is a winner in the learning style argument and there never will be. There is no right or wrong.

Pete,

I do take exception to you using Toronto in the literal vs lexical argument. I would agree that such words and all transliterations (which are not translations) need not be learned character by character. I dont think anybody would suggest that. There is no point and that is a completely different story. Chengyu's are also different in that the meanings are often obscure. Certainly you can see the value in learning the meanings of each contributing character of a word when the do indeed impart meaning to the word in question. Recently I learned the word for international. Guo Ji. It helps me to remember it (country - border/between) and also strengthens my understanding and remembrance of the word for country and border/between. That doesnt mean I think of this every time I use the word. Surely you can see the wisdom in this. By using transliterations or chengyu's as examples is just a red herring.

Dear Howard,

Thank you for a thoughtful comment. Two things stood out for me.

There are so many words in the English language that are more descriptive than "cool", "awesome" etc, but that depends on your reading and background. Let's try to be more immaginative?

Indeed, we could be more imaginative, but we shouldn't be. For example, when a lesson includes the Chinese word 酷 kù , I will translate it as "cool." This is because the character has been borrowed for its resemblance to the English word, "cool." That character originally meant something different. But Chinese people saw a need for just such a word, and adjusted their language accordingly. For the sake of beauty or eloquence, we might prefer "splendid" or "delightful." But this would not be an accurate translation.

I am very wary of using slang from other English speaking regions, for just the reasons you have described. So, some poddies take exception to the Americanisms that appear when I translate equivalently colloquial or slangy Chinese. But the alternative is far more distressing.

I sincelerely hope Chinese are also passionate about their langauge and also take umbrance to it being bastardised too!

This is a great tragedy. In the last sixty years, Chinese as it is spoken in the Mainland has been notably degraded. This is due to meaningless propaganda slogans, censorship (which restricts discussion and drives people to euphemism), mass media, including, in recent years, the Internet.

Some new words and constructions are no doubt useful, as they describe technology or ideas that did not exist before in China. And some of it is just harmless fun. But a lot of it is just empty verbiage, devoid of meaning. In fact, it is actively bad, because it crowds out meaningful speech.

There was a touching piece in the New York Times recently on this topic. In it, the writer Ha Jin explained his own decision to write in English.

Finally, I congratulate the UK on the decision to preserve Welsh and Cornish in the schools. Here in China the government has done just the opposite, with massive propaganda campaigns to wipe out the dialects. There are a lot of benefits in having a common tongue for the entire nation. But a lot of  cultural richness is surely being lost.

Dear peartowerpete

I have to take issue with your definiition of slang. Slang (as far as I can deduce) is the product of bastardisation (sic) of a language. Slang isn't the starting point in fact it's the corruption of language. Again I think people are misusuing slang/idioms for colloquialism.

Also take care re certain words you have been using. In one country the word maybe mild whereas in another it could be construde as down right rude. e.g. wanker (aussie or british version?), Jock, a matey word for a Scotsman. (i.e he's a Jock someone from Scotland), Jock Strap is that famous Scottish athelete.

You must be careful when using words you think are "safe"; Punk is probably more associated with Punk Rock and not the Mafia. "Stiff" has at least four totally different meaning depending on context

Regarding use of slang/idioms etc, I recently  watched TV adverts to see how many I could spot... err none except those that were deliberatley trying to poke fun of a certain "class"

I think someone above mentioned that the teacher/lecturer MUST know their audience. They must know their audience's level of understanding, prior knowledge etc. One size (on CPOD) can not fit all: thats the problem! So what happens? we dumb down to the lowest common denominator. There are so many words in the English language that are more descriptive than "cool", "awesome" etc, but that depends on your reading and background. Let's try to be more immaginative?

But hey we are here to learn Chinese surely? Why do I ramble about English? Because I am passionate about my language, its origins and its shortcomings. And before anyone says that English isn't the same as it was, listen to Melvyn Bragg's report on the usage of spoken English (BBC web site somewhere) it still contains a sizable chunk (whoops I have used an idiom!) of Old English. 

I sincelerely hope Chinese are also passionate about their langauge and also take umbrance to it being bastardised too! Welsh and Cornish are now being taught again in schools, if the original building blocks were lost then it would be a shame (i.e. slang replacing traditional words)

Keep up the good work and let's keep this light hearted (another idiom)

Howard

Hi mark,

Thanks for the feedback. The best proof that CPod works is that users find they are understanding things without our help.

My ultimate goal as a translator-educator is to make myself obsolete to my students.

I am afraid a previous comment, I made in this thread, was too terse to be clear.  The topic at hand was to gather feedback on how people use the translation that is available at cpod.  My interest is only in the roll-overs and vocabulary tabs of the advanced lessons.  Finding dictionary definitions for multi-character words is often a tedious and frustrating experience.  I wouldn't even try looking up grammar patterns in a dictionary. 

What I really need is a crib sheet to get a rough idea of what some multi-character word means, or how some sentence pattern I don't understand is constructed.

I am not suggesting what cpod should do, just stating my personal needs and preferences.

I don t need for the translation to be accurate in other contexts; extrapolation is a dangerous game.

I am an American, so I understand most American slang (you can find regional variants that I don't know.)

Using non-slang descriptions of things is also fine for me.

I would like to understand as much nuance as is possible to convey in a definition of a word in a specific context.

I don't have any need for sentence level translation any more, because I don't use them.

All I wanna say is... go, go, go pete!

tvan,

Understandable.Some historians have referred to the last century as the American century,so I think it's safe to assume that the American influence is felt far and wide [in some cases this is met with resistance and is seen as a threat to the local culture.I once read that historically there was increasing diversification of cultures till roughly around the time Europeans went off to colonise the world from which time the world has moved towards homogenisation...something along those lines.Makes me wanna get out there and see the world sooner rather than later before further homogenisation occurs.Even a century and a half ago when the intrepid explorer Richard Burton travelled about it would have been much more diverse than now I think ].When it comes to a specific quote like above I think it will depend on just how successful the movie was and ,as I came to realise,sometimes also on one's generation.Coming from a small place like Australia,the phenomenon you refer to is stronger.Really hard to be sure what will be understood culturally beyond our shores.Think it will vary from person to person to some extent.

@bababardwan,　I stand corrected.  I didn't know Clint Eastwood's (克林·伊斯威特) Dirty Harry was well-known outside the U.S.  As an insider, I guess I don't have a very good handle on the States' cultural reach.

Hi all,

The discussion here has really taken off. It's not practical for me to address everyone's comments and concerns right now. If I don't speak to your concerns directly, please understand that it's because of a lack of time, nothing else. If you are concerned that I haven't answered adequately, please send me a message.

Hi timslsm

Thanks as always for an interesting comment regarding learning chengyu. Let me respond with two points:

1) I do encourage people to learn slang, obscenities, chengyu and transliterated place names just by sound.

For example, Toronto, Canada is 加拿大多伦多. When you are using this in conversation, it will slow you down immensely to go through it word by word "Add + Pick up + Big + Much/many + Ethics + Much/Many.＂If instead you remember it as a pattern of sounds, you will be able to use it fluently. Before anyone says "but I want to learn the individual meanings and the full meaning" let me say -- that's great! That's what dictionaries are for. They can do much more than popup annotations ever could, by giving you a wealth of compounds using the character in question, and even explaining the roots and alternate meanings of a character. Of course, this takes more time and energy. But we all know that mastering Chinese is difficult.

2) The second example I'd like to use is the chengyu 黔驴技穷 -- to be all out of options (usually because one's ability was limited to begin with). This comes from a story about a donkey in Guizhou who was tied to a tree. When a tiger came over, the donkey brayed furiously, and the tiger ran away. This happened a few times, until the tiger realized that other than braying, there wasn't much the donkey could do. He then feasted on 驴肉.

The reason I encourage you to learn this phrase as a four syllable sound that equals something like "to be all out of tricks" is that the modern, common usage of many of these words is very different from how they are used in the chengyu. 黔 is an alternate name for Guizhou. Unless you have substantial dealings with this fine province, you will probably use this word once per decade. 驴 still means "donkey," so that one is useful. 技 is quite useful, as it can mean "technique, art, ability." But when you see 穷 it will almost always mean "poor, impoverished" and not "exhausted, used up" as in the proverb. I encourage everyone to learn the interesting background story, think about the individual characters, and then memorize the vocab as qiánlǘjìqióng. CPod can give you great examples of how the proverb should be used, and answer your questions on the boards or the "activity stream." But it's basically up to you to do the other research. Please note that this was a simple four character phrase with two characters that many will recognize immediately. When you start getting into歇后语 and historical allusions that can be twelve to 18 characters long, it becomes even more of a burden. It would be like trying to recite full sentences in Classical Chinese. 

Hi rj and keruise

Thank you for sharing your views on differences in learning style. You are both correct. There are a wide variety of learning and teaching styles. CPod is great for many people, and we are always trying to improve to help even more. That was my point in opening this discussion-- drawing honest feedback from our users. We won't ever be able to change fast enough to satisfy you (or ourselves）. But we are trying. No matter what, it really behooves us all to explore a variety of different Chinese learning methods and media.

Hi Howard,

I respectfully disagree about the value or importance of slang. Whether we like it or not, slang is an important part of the way a language keeps itself vital and alive. Many of our most prized English words started out as slang (or dare I say, gutter language.) The same process occurs in all languages, as slang "goes mainstream." If we want to master Chinese, and make ourselves understood to modern people, we just have to grit our teeth and learn a bit. Some slang expressions are very vivid and fun.

Finally, although we don't want to beat a dead horse, in RJ's outstanding phrase, 大哥，点菜吗？ did not contain a pronoun. A slangy or abbreviated version is definitely called for here. You might prefer 大哥 be rendered as "chum, mate, bloke," or something. But it is not "sir." Where I come from, "gutter language," is words that rhyme with "brothertrucker" and "munt." "Wanna" and "buddy"-- not so much.　Maybe I'm just from a tougher neighborhood than you all.  :-)

When the scene calls for formal language, for instance a courtroom as you have suggested, we will use it. Please see the "murder trial" lesson for an example.

tvan,

"(and possibly non-U.S.) English speakers by (e.g. "Do you feel lucky punk?")."

..I don't think so.That's very widely recognised.Though it does remind me of a time a few years ago I was quoting "I love the smell of napalm in the morning...smells like victory" which I also thought was widely known/famous.My secretary asked me what the hell I was talking about,and when I said ..you know,Apocalypse Now,..which she hadn't even heard of...I was shocked when she pointed out that she hadn't even been born then,and yet it didn't seem so long ago to me.Suddenly started to feel a little old,hehe.

ps Sorry bodawei,but I've gotta agree with tvan on this one.I think we go with whatever is natural to the translator we have.'twould possibly be a tad strange if Pete started using Aussie or English slang routinely,unless it be by way of explanation of some point or with a preface...as the English say.

@bodawei, sorry if any offense was taken, none intended.  Actually, if we had an Australian translator, I would happily look up his/her (quite different) slang.  Also, somebody made a good point re: obscure versus more common slang.  Still, I don't know where exactly one would draw that particular line.  Actually, any of the best (U.S.) cultural references are made in the intros, which probably pass many non-native (and possibly non-U.S.) English speakers by (e.g. "Do you feel lucky punk?").

@tmslsm, I respectfully take exception/quibble with the following:

"In my opinion, this would go a long way to making CPod a viable vehicle for learning the written language..."

Given the gap between written and spoken Chinese, I don't think listening to dialogs will ever cut it re: learning written Chinese.  That said, learning individual characters goes a long way in that regard, which is probably what you meant.

Actually we did not consider the jocks as cool. They were way too straight. To me and my group they were a joke.

I don't think being good at football characterised you particularly. Come to think of it, my school's tribes were largely decided on class background. In the lower years, the "cool" people were generally the most disruptive and chavvy. I would say these were the equivalent to the American jock, but without sporting ability being prerequisite. These so-called "cool" types were only cool during the years of mixed-ability teaching. One we were set during our last couple of years, they were duly regarded with contempt by most previously uncool people (as they were invariably in the bottom set and no one had to put up with them any more).

Brent, Sebire,

"smart" is the new "sexy". :-) 

Sebire- you dont have Jocks in the UK? What do they call them, footballers?

We also had "motor heads" in high school. Guys that spent all their time , effort and money on their car so friday night they could drive through McDonalds with the back end jacked up making lots of noise with their illegal mufflers. They had pimples and smelled like gasoline but were always thinking the car, and their manliness (mechanics are real men)  would get the girl. Sometimes it did.  I think this phenomenon is dead today. Today it takes a BMW maybe.  Bie Mo Wo 别摸我

Sebire, I am so sure...like gag me with a spoon, and make it hurt.

Henning, a jock I think is a peculiarly American phenomenon.

RJ, as for valley speak dying out, I am like, yeah, whatever...

Henning

actually to clarify, since you are interested in slang, the only technically slang word here is "jock". The expression was post-jock, not a "post jock". Post simply means after as in post-operative or post traumatic stress disorder etc. Jock may have started out as slang but it is in the dictionary today and is very commonly used. The American Heritage dictionary says:

"A male athelete."

"One characterized by excessive concern for machismo."

This is often used in high school - you are either a jock, or a nerd, a hoodlum, or part of the in-crowd etc.

I really wouldnt classify jock as "slang" today since it is so commonly used but it did start out that way. It comes from the "jock strap" that all athletes in high school were required to wear. Granted, you probably dont learn this in english class. The mindless dribble used by "valley girls" is quite a different matter. This is relatively recent (1980's) and limited to a small demographic. Most adults find valley speak disgusting. I also believe it has fallen out of use. (I hope).

I love slang and its proper use adds color to language, but one must be careful when learning a second language that proper use and meaning are understood. Not always easy. Perhaps a group on slang would be useful, English and Chinese.

To get back on topic:

Keruise and howard, interesting comments. Thanks for making us think without being negative.

Dear All

The problem with idioms and dialect (not slang which is just lazyyness) is that we (the learners) don't always "see such  styles in the translation to English". We assume that it is the "real" translation of the Chinese sentence (not quite ni = buddy obviously). I think that is the problem. Those that understand idioms and used to such don't see it as an issue, whereas people like myself do. It is not that we wish to argue or complain it's just that we don't know! Also we don't know if it correct for an aging person like myself to use such speech. In other words it would sound plain ridiculous for a lawyer to talk to a judge with "hey buddy wanna do this guy". See what I mean. I am sure NOT all poddies are from the same location in the USA to be able to understand the translation. Although we can probably guess the meaning. Hence that is why I cross check with Chinese friends to make sure I have the correct meaning (understanding).

I also think that people misuse "idioms" for "colloqialisms" which are totally different. The Donbei issue is a case in point: are these really Donbei idioms or .....?

Chinesepod is a cheap and cheerful method of introduction to the Chinese language. Maybe we should just stand back and realise that. Chinese classes would cost much more than my subscription.

A final note: could we have a newbie refresher lesson that puts together say 5 older lessons into one? This would be useful for revision and provide a more comprehensive method of measuring our learning progress.  Newbie lessons are far too short.

Cheers

Howard

Here is Amber's definition of a "post jock":

hi henning, Post-jock. Well a jock is like a sorta sports kind of guy in high school. Post-jock being, maybe he's washed up now, being past high school age, perhaps sporting a spare tire and longing for the old glory years.

And before that, one lesson carried the proud title "Being pissed" for almost two years. So, the phenonomen isn't that new to me.

Hi Pete, all,

Yes, I really think this is a worthwhile discussion.  I have a few observations re translation with regard to my own Chinese learning as well as the learning of my EFL/ESL students over the years.

We all have our own learning styles, which are part of us, like the way we walk.  While it is possible to put similar learning styles into groups, it is better to think of your learning style as being unique to you.  Some people want and need a literal translation to every word while others just find it distracting.  What works for one person may not work for another.  

But that's not the whole story.  For there are also what are broadly accepted to be effective and ineffective learning strategies.  While styles are pretty much beyond our control, strategies are a matter of choice.  Naturally, the strategy which most appeals to you is framed by your learning preferences, AKA your learning style.  

The learning strategy you adopt depends not only on what you want to learn but also how you intend to use it.  Traditional rote learning of a language is great if you only need to 'know about' the language, say to pass a test, or read the user instructions on your new vacuum cleaner.  If, on the other hand, you intend to use the language to communicate with other people about a wide range of subjects then rote learning alone will not be the most effective strategy - here most people would suggest that a more communicate approach, such as immersion, is more useful.   While knowledge tends to stay with us, skills, like muscles, can become weak if not used regularly.  Howard97 compared rote learning to immersion learning, saying how the former lasted longer than  the latter.  I would suggest that what Howard learnt in the immersion method was more skills based and that's why it quickly faded.  

What does this mean for Cpod?

A good language teacher takes the apparent learning styles of her learners into consideration when formulating a learning, and teaching, plan.  I say 'apparent', as it is really almost impossible to diagnose a learning style with any real accuracy, but a teacher can, with experience and attention to her learners, place them on a sort of matrix from more concrete to more abstract learning styles.  Cpod are, by virtue of the instruction medium, unable to do that.  This means that any one strategy is going to please some learners and disappoint others.  The only solution I can find is for Cpod to use many different strategies equally.  besides, as we all have different learning styles, I would advise anyone trying to learn Chinese to try out many different strategies and see what works for you.  It is very unlikely that your friend's learning style is the same as yours, so there is no reason to assume that a strategy which works for him is definitely going to work for you.

K

Keruise

heres your girl but a true valley girl is from southern California.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR75L08SBHo&NR=1

Hi rjberki,

So do you mean a 80s valley girl is 'Miss South Carolina?' as in "we need more maps?"

exactly. Clueless indeed.

Aha, e.g. Alicia Silverstone in Clueless? (Well, a 90s version...)

I think he means 80's valley girl which is:

"A spoiled, idiotic adolescent female from the southwestern part of the United States, typically rich and white, whose language is insulting to human intelligence."

but Im going to let Henning tell you what a jock post is.

Henning, do englighten us on a post jock and an 80th valley girl?

Slang in Chinese needs to be translated into some kind of slang in English. It is only when it is really obscure slang then it is somewhat unhelpful. I certainly think that both the literal and more natural translations are required (pop-ups are fine by me) - literal translations so that one can learn the characters and understand how they can fit together to mean what they do in fact mean (洗手间 = wash hand room = bathroom, makes perfect sense to me), and the other so one can get the feeling for the sense of the sentence in terms of tone and formality and appropriate contextual usage (is a 洗手间 a public bathroom? A personal one? Does it contain a shower? Is it literally just hands? Are lavatories involved?)

Unlike Henning, I will pass judgement - some of the complaints regarding translation have just gone over the top, and have been frankly annoying. A constructive debate I welcome, but once someone has made their point, it doesn't have to be endlessly repeated in a million different posts and under countless lessons. If this was a state education system, then fair enough, complain away (I certainly do). But there are competitors out there - if translation issues really pain people that much, vote with your feet/mouse.

To be fair, slangy, fancy, and strange expressions have been in use at CPod for eons - long before Pete came over.  I still remember Amber explaining me what a "post jock" is ("80th valley girls' slang) and before Amber there was Aric...

In retrospective there seem to be "complaining fashion" that change over times. For a while it was the fear of losing manliness because of all the female role models, now it is slang translations (This is no judgement, just an observation.).

I would like to point out that all those that are in favor of less english, or explanations in Chinese, are advanced students. I hope one day to feel exactly the same way. Having said that I do see the merit in using Chinese to explain Chinese, but it may be tough to continually find level appropriate words to explain new vocab. It would also make study tougher and there are complaints already that intermediate is too big a jump. There is a reason this technique is ramped up gradually through the levels. Isnt there?

@sushan

I think you said it well.

For what it is worth, I look up translations for individual words and characters that I don't recognize, but I don't use the whole sentence translations any more, in fact I prefer not to look at them.  When trying to keep up with a native speaker's pace, translation into English is a mental ball and chain.

Slang terms best translated into comparable contemporary slang. The country doesn't matter. Sorry to bring this term up again, but 'cruising for chicks'......what is this, the 80s?

We can get character by character translation from pinyin tools; I don't see value in adding another layer of char by char at the lesson level.

Since this is a language learning site, background and cultural context is important. I would prefer a more literal style of translating, that takes a bit of attention and patience to understand, rather than reducing Chinese to grade 8 level English. The point is to understand Chinese, not show us the most beautiful or easy to understand English.

i all

Great  discussion, I believe we will not get CPOD to change re idioms so I will continue to get my Chinese friends to do it for me!

Re language learning, immersion etc. just for the debate... I learnt French at school (nearly 50 years ago) by formal rote methods to conjugate verbs etc. and I also learnt German by immersion (i.e. Gap year) You know what? I can remember all my French but the German has long since gone. I also have friends who learnt formal Latin and they say the same, it makes learning a new language so much easier becasue they have the basic building blocks in place. I know that was at an age in your (their) life when schooling was probably easier than in later years but it's food for thought.

And to add another tuppence worth, (unless doing it for professional translation) then .. language is for communication not examination !

I advice you all to watch Chinese soap operas and put on the subtitles and see how much you know, it's actually more than you think (the best being the eloquant Ji Xiaolan TV series http://www.chinesemall.com/eljixilancon.html)! Films too esp. CTHD and Hero etc.

Cheers (Have a nice summer solstice)

Howard

@Pete

Thanks for your feedback - and for your dictionary reference. 

I take your point about body language etc. helping. I hope you can also consider the point about level-appropriate language for explanations.

Eg. I have a child's book of poems in which there is an explanation of the 'hard' words at the bottom of the page - that is the kind of thing I imagine could be done at CP.  

Also, I recently did entry level French at a Syd uni a couple of years ago - that is, absolute beginners; no prior knowledge of French required.  Neither the text book nor the teaching contained one solitary word of English.  Except 'false friends' :-).

Hi bodawei,

Thanks for an interesting suggestion, re: using Chinese to introduce Chinese vocab. Getting a firm grasp on the language means understanding it on its own terms. Many of the best Chinese immersion programs do indeed offer no Chinese in the classroom from a very early level.

Having said that, students in a physical classroom have the opportunity to view a teacher's body and facial language, and to get other concrete input about the teacher's meaning (writing on the chalkboard, etc.) Since our medium is stricly audio podcasts, the Chinese immersion generally has to wait until a higher level, because if you don't understand what you are hearing, you're basically out of luck. But still, Chinese explanations are valuable. We can explore ways to incorporate them at lower levels.

As for a dictionary, the gold standard (in the PRC) is the 新华现代汉语大词典. I believe the most recent edition is 2005.

Hi tvan, tim, henning,

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. I don't have the time to reply to each one of you now, but the CPod team has plenty to discuss now.

@tvan

Mate, I enjoy your posts and appreciate the knowledge you bring to CP, but ...OUCH! Did you really say that about American (sic) slang and 'size does matter'??  

Having said that, Pete's idiosyncratic style usually makes me smile (when I understand it), with his 'buddy this' and 'buddy that'.  Sounds like a comic script from the 1960s.  Before Pete revealed his roots I wondered if I had tuned into radio in Lake Woebegone.

I think literal tranlations should be always be given - but honestly, mainly because otherwise its frustrating to learn the written form.  To use your example 王八蛋 - without a literal transition, are we expecting people to memorize these charecters as a combination?  And not for what they individually mean?  That would be horribly inefficient.  Now, of course this is a bad example, because those are very basic charecters, but take 钻牛角尖 - its less likely a listener will know all of these charecters.

Also, without literal translations, you are passing up an easy oppurtunity for further learning.  In 钻牛角尖, you can basically give the listener a chance to learn the words "drill" "cow" "horn" etc as well as the total expression, or you can just have them learn the meaning of the expression - all for about the same expenditure of time and effort on the part of the listener.  I'd rather pick up the extra vocab for the same amount of time.

Of course, a better solution would be, that at the end of every pdf have a list of all the individual charecters that make up all of the selected vocab of the lesson, with their individual meanings as characters.  Because the same problem arises to a lesser extent with many multi-charecter words.

In my opinion, this would go a long way to making CPod a viable vehicle for learning the written language, as well as better expand listeners' vocab. 

Pete, you are undeniably busting your hump with your translation efforts! :-P

I would like to differentiate:

Like chanelle I learn English idioms, slang, and interesting new expressions from the dialogue translations, the intros, and the discussions.

It is a different matter, however, for the Vocab section that also feeds the Audio Review. As I listen to the Audio Review in free-hand-mode and on the move I usually cannot on the spot look up an English term. So common terms are welcome for that part. This is not that problematic in the Expansion section, because there I can usually derive the meaning of rere idioms from context (or from the following Chinese part).

Where did I learn most of my English? From reading and writing and looking everything up again and again. Still doing this. And I constantly feel those invisible non-native-walls that confine my verbal leeway, especially when it comes to vocab and subtleties - which can be a significant disadvantage at times.

@Chanelle77, I alway get the, "你的中文很棒" comment right before, "你说什么."

I don't feel strongly on the translation issue, though I'm generally of the opinion that less is morre.  (Personally, I preferred it when the Advanced lessons lacked English.)  However, I did have two points:

• Dictionaries:  Online dictionaries are great, convenient, and all that.  But, as Pete pointed out, there's no substitute for using a print dictionary to look up character meanings and that means via the radical, not pinyin.  It really helps to, say, once a week, go through some print material with a print dictionary and using pinyin only as a last resort.  Also, the definitions listed in online dictionaries tend to be far from comprehensive.
• English Slang:  If you're doing a translation of Chinese slang into English slang, what's the problem with using American slang?  Sure England is the mother country (well, maybe Germany if you count the Angles und Saxons), but the great preponderance of native English speakers (and poddies) are in the United States.  In language/customer base, "Size does matter."  (I think that's a universal idiom.)

@BABA I believe there is even a name for that and it is commonly referred to as the "你的中文说得很好 phenomenon" :-)

Once I was in a Nanjing cab and the driver said my Chinese sucked. I was shocked by his honesty because I always expect something nice. My ayi later said it probably was a joke. OR maybe not and I should stop trying (if he was being "nice" ) haha!

Pete - thanks for starting what should be an interesting discussion. 

My question/comment has been raised before but I'd like to give it another airing.  In the more advanced lessons presenters explain the meaning of words in Chinese - I must admit I prefer this, and if necessary look something up in a dictionary.  Can this approach be pushed down a bit into the lower levels?  Why do you restrict this to the more advanced lessons?  By using level-appropriate language it should be possible to explain pretty much anything in Chinese shouldn't it? I think this is a fair question because in a class room setting I was always confronted with explanations in Chinese, at anything above CP-style 'newbie' or 'elementary'.

Supplementary question - do you have a recommended Chinese/Chinese dictionary, for the 1st time user of such an approach?

At this point I feel like we are beating a dead horse, but my opinion is that we need both literal and common generic translations. The first time I see something I want to know where it comes from and after that I try to use it functionally as a lexical chunk. When I learn "xi shou jian", I want to know not only that it means "bathroom" but that xi means "wash" so when I hear "xi lian" is "wash face" I can make the connection. It helps me remember all 3 things and when I hear "xi tou" or "xi wan" I know we are probably washing something. All helpful. Dictionaries are great and I do use them extensively but I would not want to give up the roll-over because it is a good start, and it saves time and effort.

As for slang, I too enjoy learning global slang, but I think that should come mostly from the boards. The problem with some slang expressions is that they are representative of a very small demographic or may even be out of date. Overall this is not a problem as long as the literal roll over is there. I think this is more of a disagreement about "style" for me, and I realize that is a subjective thing.

Again, some of us are more analytical than others. Right brain vs left brain kind of a thing. Thats a fact and everybody does not learn the same way so its dangerous to discount another approach simply because its not the way you do it. Neither is right or wrong. Adamant defense of either makes little sense. Lets understand and embrace the fact that we need them all.

Thanks Pete.Not to belabour the point too much,but while there are many idiomatic expressions for describing someone as nuts,to miss out on the literal description/metaphor/imagery of the specific expression chosen would be to miss out on the richness of the language.To me it would be like saying that one painting of a sunset is the same as any other.Sure they may convey the same essential meaning,but if you only see a painting of a sunset,you will have missed so much.Which is also why I agree with you and Chanelle and welcome others different ways of expressing their ideas.

I also was amused with Chanelle's insightful comment:

"You're Chinese is PERFECT" (i.e. "nice try").

..hehe,jiushi.What fun people to interact with too.

Actually,perhaps a better example from literature would be to take Shakespeare and to translate it to a version a 5 year old could understand and then say that they are basically saying the same thing.Sure the plot would be roughly the same,but how much an adult would miss reading the child's version..all the magic/or at least much of it.To use a Shakespeare quote against him:

"that by which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

...I tend to agree with L.M.Montgomery:

"I don't believe a rose WOULD be as nice if it was called thistle or skunk cabbage"

..of course in reality they're approaching it from different angles.Shakespeare was specifically referring to the fact that the scent doesn't change [and was more pondering/exploring...what's in a name?...an extension of the problem with Romeo's name/family],whereas Anne of Green Gables was referring to the emotional reaction to that scent.

We're off to a great start.

Hi zhenlijiang,

Looking forward to your remarks.

Hi bababardwan,

You've made a good case for understanding both literal and contextual and idiomatic translations.

I liked your example about the idiom "bats in the belfry." This is an area that sometimes causes friction among the English speakers from various areas. Each is convinced that their own version ("nuts," "one oar in the water," etc.) is the correct version. Or at least, they take exception to seeing the phrase rendered in a way that they would not think of.

But this obscures the main point-- "bats in the belfry" is really a cute, oral, non-clinical way of saying that someone is insane or at least eccentric. As long as they match this description, any of the English variations would be fine. I use the American English version, but like chanelle and many other users, I'm always interested to hear how other people think.

Finally, I　agree about the merits of a literal understanding of each word in a phrase. I have found that a dictionary, paper or digital, works best for this. We try to point out as many of the interesting or quirky things about the lesson vocab as we can in the discussion boards. But in the end, the burden is mostly on the poddies to do their own research to discover the meaning of the words outside the lesson context.

Of course, we at CPod are always happy to answer specific questions on vocab and grammar, and we love it when you ladies and gents help each other out, as well.

Hi chanelle77,

I strongly agree with your comments about human interaction. That is really the point of language, whatever form it takes.

And as for slang and obscenity, let's see what we can do... ;-)

As a non-native speaker I find (English) idioms / slang (Kapla?!, Koronis, Smug, Magic Chen etc...) and the discussions here in general very useful.
I started learning English around when I was 6-8 years old and still learn new things, very often here especially from users with different backgrounds (US, UK, OZ). I can only say thx for that!
For Chinese:

• Both ways of translations have pro's and cons. Literary translations help me better discover structure / rules / grammar etc. Chunky translations have richer cultural background and help me grasp the language better and on a "higher" level and give cultural insights (light bulb).
  
• Context
• Very important especially in Chinese since the language is so context dependant and things are never what they seem to be."You're Chinese is PERFECT" (i.e. "nice try").
  
• I do not care too much about tone and clarity but focus on human interaction and other ways of communication (I think 80% of communication is body language I do not have a REF handy). Works "like a charm" for me. And I always think: No Chinese in their right mind expects a blond blue eyed laowai to do it perfect. So no worries and talk.
  
• The more profanity and slang the better :-P

Ok,since you've asked Pete,I will try and explain my reasoning on why I want to understand both the literal and the idiomatic by using an example from English: "bats in the belfry".One could explain to a learner of English to just remember this as a phrase meaning the person being referred to is crazy.Sure this would work.They could go away and memorise this phrase and learn to use it appropriately.However,this way,they have not got a clue what the individual words mean ,nor how they were put together to arrive at the meaning.Sure they are likely to eventually learn [or may have already learnt] all the words elsewhere except perhaps belfry which may come much later as it's an uncommon word.But this was a missed learning opportunity and they don't really understand the origin of the saying.Also,I think learning such colourful expressions really helps consolidate the learning as you have a little story to go with it.It also gives insight into the thinking that arrived at that expression.Sure when most people use this expression ,or similar ones [like the Aussie ...he's a roo short in the top paddock] they aren't thinking in a very literal sense but they do understand what they are saying [in most cases].Of course,if they only learnt the literal and not the idiomatic here,they are not overly likely to make the connection to the true meaning in an expression like this...they may guess at it...but there would be possibly be uncertainty.That's why both are important.Ok,so Chinese is an ancient language and in some cases the link to the literal may have become obscure.I'm sure it's usually there though,perhaps via a number of links.I agree about thinking in Chinese.It's just nice to have those building blocks so you can understand where you've come from.For example,with ni hao I'm probably not thinking "you good" specifically when I say it.But if I stop and think I know how I got to that greeting.I've even had dreams in Chinese,so I think the stuff you've become familiar with does become ingrained and natural.But I think there is a process to arrive at that point and it's nice to know how you got there.To me it means a deeper understanding of the language,not a lesser one.

Having said all this,I am very happy with your translations as we do have both the literal with the rollovers [and online dictionaries],and I personally think you're doing as good a job as possible in the idiomatic,which it seems to me ,by it's very nature [being idiomatic] lends itself to debate...no win situation.I'm merely making the point that I don't think literal translations should be so dismissed ,and that once understood,one can then be in a better position to think in Chinese without further analysis...the expressions/lexical chunks will be better owned.

pete, thanks for posting this. I'm sure I'll be unloading sharing my thoughts here (got to run to class now)!