The culture of the Chinese university

the main implications people talk about are access to health services and schools (both un-subsidized), and access to social security if you were in that unfortunate situation. there would be many people who wouldn't care about these implications - but I don't know a lot on this, it would be interesting to get comment from someone in this situation. It would be interesting to get a sweeping statement like 'X% of the population wouldn't give a hoot about hukou'.

I see. Interesting. When I was 17 I couldnt wait to get out of the house, and I never looked back. What are the consequences of being caught without a proper permit?

good point, I agree with that from a legal point of view. But many don't bother with the legalities - there a lot of people who go and work wherever they like. There is a new generation out there. Many people decide that you don't actually need the hukou ..

From discussion it seems that about half decide they want to stay, and half miss family so much they try to find work back in the home province.

Bodawei,

my point was you need a reason to relocate. College is such a reason so they take advantage of it to go places they may like to stay after school is finished.

' Its not as simple to be mobile in China as in the US'

I'd love to see some data on this - as I say, 50% of my students are from outside the province, and their destination is ranked #1 in the province - so yes, I agree that there are barriers in China, but I am seeing a mobile student population, whichever way you look at it. It may be that the trends through time in both countries are more interesting than the differences between them. Specially since from what I understand there is a tradition in the US to move to the 'best' university you can get into, and the unusually strong family ties in China.

Also, and this applies more about the working population, people just move around these days. Specially if you are young and single.

The residency permit for Chinese students is another issue I forgot about. RJ, you're right, here in the US, kids can just go anywhere they want to attend college. For example, my son is attending a state university 2,000 miles away from us. The biggest issue for us is paying the out-of-state tuition fees and airfare.

It is a ticket out for students to attend universities outside of their own province. I met guys in SH that were from some really tiny towns up north for example that because of attending school in SH were of course given residency permits for this area and could expand on that and get a job and stay. Its not as simple to be mobile in China as in the US and we tend to forget this. One kid I work with attended one of the top schools located in SH but he was one of only 12 students granted permission to go to that school from his province that year. His test score must have been quite impressive. We do search for the cream of the crop and I have not yet been disappointed in folks they hire in China. Well, maybe once, but he's gone.

'Going to a univ outside of your own province requires a higher score because there are quotas'

It's a complicated algorithm for the student and the families. But current Chinese students are mobile. In my classes I have roughly 50% of students from outside my province. Alarmingly I have only 5 students out of about 100 from this city! (The balance are from country Yunnan.) Where do all the Kunming kids go? Well - my students say that Kunming kids aspire to the bright lights - they will try to get out of Yunnan as it 'despised' as backward. There is another answer - my wife teaches in a different program, all her students are preparing for further study overseas. Whether or not they actually go. 100% of her students are from Yunnan, because you have to be 'local' to get in the program.

What about the 50% of my classes that are from outside Yunnan - there are two main reasons they come here. 1. the opportunity to attend a #1 ranked university in the province (still probably requires a lower score than their own provincial capital's #1 university.) 2. The climate. Almost every student who moved to Yunnan say that climate/life style is a factor. So.. it is not a simple answer.

I have dealt with young graduates in China quite a bit and my understanding was that upon taking the gao kao you declare your top choices of major and univ. The govt decides which one you get based on scores and availability of seats in the programs. Going to a univ outside of your own province requires a higher score because there are quotas. This is why that one test is so important. As far as I know the test is given once a year in July. Usually on the hottest day of the year. :-) Changing majors is not easy, as you have detailed.

I find it hard to believe that Australians pay no attention to the rankings of universities. Choice of univ and grade point average are both important for that first job interview in the US. After that, work experience carries the most weight. Choice of univ also has networking benefits if you go to a school like Harvard. When you graduate there are plenty of alumni in high places willing to give you a hand up in your job search.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I read it before I had my morning coffee!

'It's interesting that there are no rankings for Australian universities.'

Yikes!! Where did that come from?? I said 'Australian universities are ranked too - but Australians are perhaps less obsessed with the rankings.' - there is a big difference. Aah - I feel that we have been talking at cross-purposes for some time now. Never mind.. :)

Hi, bodawei: I was using the US News and World Report ranking on US universities. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges.

I have been using it lately as my 16-year-old daughter already is researching and visiting prospective colleges.

It's interesting that there are no rankings for Australian universities.

Hi abelle

I agree that people's futures are not necessarily determined by which school they went to, but that is not what I was pointing to above. I was talking about perceptions. And the fact that you even know the ranking of the universities in your post above - that is the difference I was alluding to between our two societies. Australians would have no idea of rankings like this, and it certainly would not be in interview reports.

I suspect the Chinese experience is rather like the US experience you describe above. :)

Hi, bodawei: I found in America that people's futures aren't necessarily determined by where they went to university. In my 25 years of work experience (the last three as a manager), I found that everyone was given a fair chance, no matter where they went to school. Once graduates get to their companies or government departments, everyone has a level playing field and start from zero, having to prove themselves in the workplace. Employees who are smart and went to state universities are reviewed and promoted alongside those who went to prestigious universities. Sometimes employees who went to lower-ranked universities are smarter and more driven than those who went to the higher-ranked ones, but maybe because of finances they couldn't attend the more expensive schools. As a manager, I saw that many people had natural intelligence and leadership qualities, and that's what I appreciated instead of the schools they attended. (One of my best and brightest employees attended a university that's ranked #167 in the US. And one of the problem employees graduated from the #7 university! As I've since left that job, I can only hope that #167 gets promoted faster than #7--he deserves it.) My husband who hires engineers for his company even said that he looks at the recent work experience instead of the colleges candidates may have graduated from 5 or 10 years before.

I'm wondering how this compares to the Chinese student and work experience.

Ooh, when the mistake results in someone going to a lower-ranked university the alarm bells ring. There is scope for a bit of funny business here?? Someone took that person's place at a higher-ranked university.

Hi abelle

By your comment it seems that you are surprised .. isn't this pretty much exactly how it works in the US? I meet Americans all the time who are contemplating or recently completed an entrance test, with the aim of getting into a high-ranked university. It seems from what other Americans have told me there is a systematic pecking order among universities in the US, and employers see it that way too. In Australia the standard of teaching/research etc. in our universities is much more uniform, though there are of course differences. The Chinese system seems to me to be rather like the US system, certainly much more like the US system than the Australian system - there is an obsession with ranking here. (Yes, I know Australian universities are ranked too - but Australians are perhaps less obsessed with the rankings. I always tell people to ignore the rankings; look at the course design and the teaching staff and the facilities - do your own assessment.)

This is fascinating to me about how Chinese students are assigned to different levels of universities. So if the student gets very high marks on the kaogao, they can go to a top-notch university? And if they they get lower scores, they go to a lower-level university? So does this pretty much set them for life because employers when hiring will categorize students as first-rate, second-rate, third-rate, etc., and of course, employers would want to hire the top students and I assume the students from the lower-level schools would have a harder time finding good, better-paying jobs.

I also have a friend who was accidentally assigned to to wrong university. Even though his gaokao scores were high, he has to go to a lower scale university. Even though the mistake was not his fault, the schools will not fix the mistake.

Hi Tvan

The question of majors and changing majors is 复杂, I just scraped the surface. From what I understand now this is highly decentralized, with individual universities setting their own rules and regs (scope for corruption?)

Changing universities is kind of interesting (and different to the West) because your Fate is somewhat sealed once you have been allocated a university and a major, based on your gaokao score.

I don't want to say too much here but this is also potentially a system that provides incentives for corruption - so those stories about under-the-table payments could well have substance.

I have even heard quite recently about someone in a friend's family where the student was mistakenly assigned to one university instead of another. All I can say is that many Chinese families do not like the system and feel powerless when dealing with the authorities on this kind of thing. An independent ombudsman would I think make the average Chinese person distinctly better off.

Xie xie ni, Tvan. I also appreciate your information.

Xie xie ni, bodawei. I appreciate you taking the time to find the answers. It's all very interesting and seems to be more complicated that the US university system.

@bodawei, I asked a student the same questions and got pretty much the same answers as you. There was one difference however; from this student's understanding, changing majors is very expensive. It involves paying significant fees to the university and/or under-the-table.

My friend (a classmate from my Masters' days) told me that many of her friends felt trapped in their majors. They couldn't change because either they couldn't afford it or because their parents selected their major for them.

Hi abelle

I got some answers to your questions from one recent graduate and a current third year student; they more or less agreed on most points. :) Hope this helps .. but of course keep in mind that this is based on the experience of just two of my students. One was educated here in Yunnan and one in 河北唐山 (Hebei Province).

Q1. For admission to university, do you do an ‘admission test’ as well as the 高考?

A: Almost all students who want to pursue a course of study at university take the 高考, and the score they get from 高考 determines what level of university they are able to go to. (A very very limited number of students, like 5/per year per university, can enrol in a university without taking the 高考 if they are outstanding in professional competitions like Olympia.) Also, students who pursue a major like painting and singing take the 高考, but they also take an extra exam in their chosen field.)

Students also do a ‘high school graduation exam’ (in Chinese it is called '会考') at the end of grade 12 in high school. This test is hold before the better known '高考'. If you pass the 会考 you receive a high school ‘diploma’.

[This is very similar to the Australian system.]

Note: the 高考 called 普通高等学校招生全国统一考试 in full. 高考 is an abbreviation.

2. Is the admission test 高考 offered only once a year?

A: Students from all provinces take the same test on the same day every year. This is one reason why the 高考 is considered to be so critically important, for everyone (students, parents, teachers).

[This is the same as in Australia.]

3. Is the admission test set by the university you want admission to?

The standard 高考 （Admission Test）is set by the Ministry of Education of the PRC. But some provinces do conduct their own tests ((minor difference of curriculum). There are in all five different tests in China, but they are almost the same and about 85% of Chinese students take the same one.

However, some top universities set an 'Independent recruitment test'. This test is offered only once a year as well, before '高考'. This test is similar to SAT. (The top three ranking in 2010 is 1. Peking University; 2. Tsinghua University; 3. Zhejiang University). The test is set by each university. You need your scores for the '高考' as well. High school recommendation is required for the independent tests, and there is a quota.

4. So you would do three separate tests if you applied to three universities?

Not unless you are applying to one of the top-ranked universities (see answer to #3.) The vast majority of universities solely rely on results from the 高考.

5. Do you decide your majors as soon as you enter a university (at the start of first year)? Or can you leave this decision to second year, or even later?

A: Every student chooses their major or at least a major direction before or right after they take the 高考. Students make their decisions about which major and which university they want to go to and then apply for it. Different departments of different universities set different minimum scores. Each student has no more than 3 choices (second and third choices must require a lower score than the first choice.) This is a complicated problem which bothers students and parents a lot.

6. If a student wants to change his/her major, do they have to take another test?

You can apply to change your major after finishing first year if your scores for first year are high enough. Generally only those who are achieving good grades get the opportunity to switch majors.

I haven’t got a clear picture of whether a new test is required (I got conflicting answers to this question.) Although you generally don't need to take extra tests, in some majors a new test may be required.

Ni hao, bodawei: I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to finding the answers to my questions. Yes, you are correct about the US college years and the associated student designations. Thirty years ago when I was at university, I changed my major from Business to History, and it was pretty easy, just filling out a form indicating my new major. But I have no idea how easy/hard it is now at US universities.

Hi abelle

I should be able to answer your questions but I would have to ask my students - if you are patient I will get their feedback on the latest, ok?

Just for clarification (I seem to get it mixed up at times), in the US it goes freshman (1st yr), sophomore (2nd), junior (3rd), senior (4th)?

Certainly students change their majors and I guess whether they have to complete a test it depends on the change? You can't presumably go from say English to Engineering or Architecture without a test? I have at least one student this semester who went from (I think) Business to Economics - in Australia that would probably depend on what the student's original scores were; Economics would normally require a higher score than Business. (But it also depends on which university.)

Anyway, I will ask a couple of current students for the answer.

Hi zhenlijiang

Thanks for that - I remember the lesson on plagiarism at the time - lots of good discussion too.

Perhaps, I'm by no means an expert on the issue.

But can a system of standardised tests that occurred thousands(?) of years ago, still form the model of education in China today?

And if it can, why does it still persist? And what is the alternative?

(20 marks)

I'm not sure if the idea of "knowledge in China [being] something [that] should be shared" explains cheating at tests, or even having someone take the test for you.

The path to success in China has been through testing. In the earlier days of China, you had to take an examination showing a solid foundation (and verbatim knowledge) of the Classics to become an official. The better you scored, the better your career turned out (mostly).

Today, you've got the Gaokao, a test that puts the burden on kids to seal their academic and professional fates at an early age.

Perhaps the rampant cheating is more a coping mechanism in a society that places such emphasis on (rote) tests, more than a manifestation of some lofty ideal of shared knowledge.

Don't feel too bad about that (attendance) - I teach the same course twice - first to a group for which it is compulsory, second to a group for which the course is an elective. Attendance at the elective class is consistently higher than at the compulsory one. So my view is they came because they wanted to hear you - they don't generally take any notice of 'compulsory' attendance. (In fact I think some really resent the compulsory class.)

Are you making the assumption that I won't ruin them again if they try to ruin me? Anyway, I hate cheating, but I have met some cheaters I like.

If someone reported on me for cheating I would wait a few years and then ruin their lives.

So nice. You are really on a roll today.

You shouldnt report people for cheating for 2 reasons - 1) It is extremely lame.

2) you shouldn't mess with another person's rice bowl in Asia b/c they could mess you up. If someone reported on me for cheating I would wait a few years and then ruin their lives. 君子报仇十年不完。

Christ I really did do a ton of cheating in college hahaha

ahh the good old days.

RCK

I can't speak about Taiwan because I have never been there, and I won't even bother to say all American students are angels, but honestly, I have been shocked at how much cheating happens in mainland China. From my experience, the older they are, the more they cheat. I had an MBA class. One woman blatantly came in and took a test for another student. It was so obvious. She didn't think I would care. When I reported it, she gave me a sob story about how she didn't think it was wrong. She thought she was helping a friend.

Bodawei and I have debated this before, but my opinion remains unchanged. Lots of cheating in China. That said... lots of hard studying too by many if not all of the students. Passing the university entrance exam is one thing that guanxi (normally) doesn't help someone succeed in China. Hence, no way around it--gotta study.

Your right, i teach English majors

'plagiarism and cheating are common'

You have to be careful running these together - plagiarism is a relatively modern concept whereas cheating has been around since time began, hey? Also, plagiarism is a distinctly Western concept (that is still defined differently from place to place). Nevertheless it is a concept that the rest of the world has to learn about if they want to study at Western universities.

Hi megcram

'if you fail a senior'

I wasn't aware that seniors (is that 大四?) take English courses, unless they are English majors. At my university they take English courses only in first and in some cases second year.

xiao_liang

Interesting that you have heard that 'university students have so much free time'. My criticism of the system is that they have just the reverse - their time is totally occupied (idle hands & the devil's work??). Their contact hours are way more than in Australia - they never have quite enough time to study, read or do the work I set them. My students typically have to try to juggle up to ten subjects - a kind of madness. Of course none are done particularly well, that is my point. It is quite different to our system in the West, that's for sure.

Wow, my philosophy is 很差; as I said to xiao_liang I thought that this was a reference to bald women. Will investigate further - that article looks like intensive reading! Well I definitely won't be going tomorrow night - I can't even follow the title of the lecture.

In my experience teaching English at a Chinese university, plagiarism and cheating are common, and though you can fail a student, you must then give him a make up test until he passes. This is annoying, so most teachers pass the students. However, if you fail a senior, this can delay his graduation... until they make up the exam and get a passing grade

It did not even occur to me that this referred to a headless woman - I thought it referred to bald women. Well, I don't have time to investigate further - but I will. How interesting.

Well done Xiao_liang.

Bodawei,

This extract:

http://analysis.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/2/48.extract

is from an article which I think was probably the original philosophy article to use the headless woman illusion as a model to explain [defend] materialism.