Traditional or simplified?

Personally I use simplified for Mandarin and traditional for Cantonese.

to fuel the 'religious' debate further, you can try and find correlations with the Windows/Mac/Linux axis

Actually this eternal debate could be a cool CPod lesson. A neverending tail of comments guaranteed. Should be Intermediate or UI to get all relevant combatants on board and include some provaktive lines for better fueling.

with 繁体字 only being used to transcribe 汉语 officialy in Taiwan (I guess the Hong Kong case is a little more complex) I was wondering about different uses of the same 简体字 character in the mainland, different characters for the same concept, or new characters even. Could be the topic of CPod lesson?

青菜蘿卜，各有所好

青菜蘿蔔，各有所好

Amen Aunty Sue!

Who cares about changing people's preferences or arguing the pros and cons, it's irrelevant to the guy's question, leave him alone. We make our decisions, and those who decide on traditional characters have as much right as anyone to be able to query and discuss matters without it always launching into a tangential debate.

Yes, I use traditional here, that's all I want to learn, no I'm not interested in discussing it, I was, but it's all become rather dreary and I'd rather just get on with it.

To avoid confusion while learning, I flatly refuse to read any simplified characters, and I can do that here, with the plugin. I wouldn't even know the plugin was there, it works magically behind the scenes.

Before, the Premium stuff was useless to me because I couldn't avoid simplified characters, but now that's all changed, and yeah it works fine.

There's still a few pages where you'll be confronted by simplified characters, such as the lesson comments, some lesson titles and descriptions. I won't comment on the grammar and dictionary sections because they're still under active development.

In your feed, select the traditional character version of the PDF of the lesson. When you get it, you'll get a link to "text version" which still takes you to a simplified character version for some strange reason. When you get there, change the url by inserting "trad" just before ".html" and you'll get the traditional version. Or just use the PDF.

There is a brilliant book about characters that some of us are using: "Reading and Writing Chinese" by William McNaughton. Beware, it comes in two versions. I have the traditional character version. After showing you how to write the character with an ordinary everyday pen (rare, handy), and briefly explaining its components and mentioning similar characters, it shows the simplified character, when one exists, in a little box. That way you can learn both if you want to, while using the full breakdown of the original character's components to connect it to the others in your memory.

The other thing I use is an excellent free Firefox tool called Tong Wen Tang. If you encounter a simplified character web page that you want to read, whack a button and it instantly changes to traditional characters. (Or vice versa)

My only other piece of advice is don't bother telling people you're using traditional characters unless you need to, because they'll feel compelled to convert you. This place is riddled with closet traditional character users who for the most part just do what they do and do it quietly. Welcome aboard.

Man2Toe, I was also thinking of henning's analogy and the number of strokes. I guess you'd feel the new homepage is like a 'traditional' character then, when the previous one probably felt a bit naked... Difference is there's only a couple such pages and I don't have to read it in a 1/4x1/4 inch box

Ｉｎｔｅｒｅｓｔｉｎｇ　ｇｏｕｌｎｉｋｙ，　Ｉ　ｏｆｔｅｎ　ｆｅｅｌ　ｔｈｅ　ｓａｍｅ　ｗａｙ　ｂｕｔ　ｉｎ　ｒｅｖｅｒｓｅ，Ｉ　ｆｅｅｌ　ａｔ　ｈｏｍｅ　ｗｉｔｈ　ｔｒａｄｉｔｉｏｎａｌ　ａｎｄ　ｓｔｒａｉｎｅｄ　ｗｈｅｎ　ｒｅａｄｉｎｇ　ｓｉｍｐｌｉｆｉｅｄ．Ａｓ　ｈｅｎｎｉｎｇ　ｍｉｇｈｔ　ｓａｙ　ａｎｄ　ｈｏｗ　Ｃｐｏｄ　ｈａｓ　ｔａｕｇｈｔ　ｕｓ　蘿蔔青菜，各有所愛．Ｆｕｎｎｙ，　蘿蔔ｉｓ　ａ　ｇｏｏｄ　ｅｘａｍｐｌｅ　ｏｆ　ｈｏｗ　ｍｕｃｈ　ｍｏｒｅ　ｓｔｒｏｋｅｓ　ａ　ｔｒａｄｉｔｉｏｎａｌ　ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒ　ｃａｎ　ｈａｖｅ　ｉｎ　ｃｏｍｐａｒｓｉｏｎ　ｔｏ　ｔｈｅ　ｓｉｍｐｌｉｆｉｅｄ　萝卜

”It has taken modern science centuries to realize the importance of every species and to view the lost of any one as a real tragedy as it endangers the survival of humanity.”　Ｓｃｉｅｎｃｅ　ｉｓ　ｇｏｏｄ．　ＩＭＯ　ｈｏｗｅｖｅｒ　ｇｒｏｕｐｓ　ｏｆ　ｈｕｍａｎｓ　ｈａｖｅ　ｋｎｏｗｎ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｆａｃｔ　　ｆｏｒ　ｔｈｏｕｓａｎｄｓ　ｏｆ　ｙｅａｒｓ．

and BTW, I did study traditional characters for a while, spent a few weeks at a Taipei language school, much enjoyed it. I am a very visual person, but when I switched back to simplified, things suddenly became much easier on the eye and brain, as if I had been carrying a burden that suddenly disappeared.

Not sure what a "naturally developed script" is supposed to mean, but if it took "one of the greatest linguists" to organize it, surely it took the will of a goverment to impose it. Languages are very political objects, and the written 'word' even more so.

It has taken modern science centuries to realize the importance of every species and to view the lost of any one as a real tragedy as it endangers the survival of humanity. We all accept this, but only a few scientist really understand the full implications of the balance in nature. Another instance: In the past, the issue of burning books was not consider a great issue by some. .. Going back to our issue, the CHINESE SCRIPT, I think that the "creator" (over two thousand years ago), or rather, the "organizer" of the already naturally developed script (an image up to nature, phisical and psichologially), was one of the greatest linguists and genius humanity has known. It is preposterous that a goverment by way of decree dare to change, to simplify (making things not only more complex but what is worse: a real mess) a script that has that has in itself all the wisdom we so sorely still need.

It is easy to argue that it is better to type with just one finger, rather than with all fingers, but it is false, the opposite view takes more time and effort to defend. In short, I have no space here to argue that the simplification of Chinese characters is one of the greatest tragedies for humanity, in the sense that it will proof to be a time bomb. The good news is that I hope that the simplification will be reversed, for the benefit of Chinese culture and for the whole humanity. In the 50's the authorities banned Confucius and traditional characters on the same political grounds, fortunately they have reinstated Confucius: a Chinese giant. One of the meanings of simplification is that some Chinese have been duped by the West into thinking that they are complex, and that the alphabetic system is far better (?!), we must not forget that the purpose of simplification was not to improve the script or anything of the sort, but it was clearly avowed that the simplification process was a first step towards the total abolition of the Chinese script.

So it is not a matter of less or more beautiful. A side effect of simplification is to waste sterile time over an artificial issue leaving out the real issue: namely the profound and unbiased meaning of characters from their origin and that has been constanly enriched through the ages.

I hope one day there is only one chinese writing system to choose from.... why keep things so complicated??? But, i suppose maybe it's about the same as a beginning English learner asking "Should I learn American or British English?" . Now, as far as bopomofo / zhuyin is concerned, i have a chinese keyboard and use it to type chinese everyday... it's an invaluable tool for me... much more efficient than typing pinyin.

A better explanation of bopomofo / zhuyin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuyin

Just to muddy the waters a little more, I originally learned Wade Giles romanization and traditional characters so now I have to switch over to PinYin AND simplified characters. Personally, I think simplified looks like traditional running around naked- I keep wanting to put the clothes back on. But practically, I think the whole issue of picking is moot. I think you have to learn both and it is easier for students to learn traditional and then pick up simplified than the other way around.

An example of BoPoMo

http://www.mdnkids.com/BoPoMo/

i think BoPoMoFo is much much clearer and accurate for pronunciation... not only the "u" sound, as in the pinyin "qu" and "wu" which are both spelled with "u" but pronounced totally different... but also "xi" , shi", "zhi", "ji" (the "i" is pronouned differently), ... BoPoMoFo makes this distinction

On BoPoMoFo in Taiwan: many children's books have the character with the pronunciation beside it--I've got biographies of ChuangZe and Confucius, Journey to the West, Outlaws of the Marsh, etc., all in still-pretty-darn-hard children's English. But having the pron beside the character makes dictionary work A LOT easier, and reinforces my tones for the characters I (should but often don't) already know.

I think BoPoMoFo does make the u/ u with two dots a little clearer; otherwise I don't see much of a difference, and jumping back and forth between the two is easy. Oh, and I'll tell my students to write their names in BoPoMoFo because then I can get the pronunciation right. They have NO idea how to use any form of pinyin.

IMHO the UN should consider abolishing itself, but that is another matter altogether.

Simplified is much more practical. Traditional is good if you plan on spending a lot of time in someplace like Taiwan, reading old texts/scrolls, or maybe getting interested in something like calligraphy.

They use BoPoMoFo here in Taiwan... supposed to more accurately reflect Chinese pronunciation than standard pinyin I am told. However, I learned standard pinyin first, so I won't bother with it unless I take a uni course that requires it.

Traditional characters developed originally as pictograms (象形) - stylized drawings of objects - and simple/compound indicatives (simple and composed ideograms)such as a single stroke for 'one' () or combining 'sun' and 'moon' for 'bright' (明). From these phono-semantic compounds developed (about 90% of today's traditional characters) which combined parts hinting at pronunciation and parts hinting at meaning. An example would be 訪 (fang3) - the word for 'to inquire' or 'to seek' which combines the radical for speech - yan2 (言) - with fang1 (方) which approximates the pronunciation (different tone) of that sound.

As language developed, characters got more complex along with the ideas they represented. As the number of characters grew,it became increasingly difficult to have full mastery of the set. Chinese script began to be seen as an obstacle to literacy and education. In many cases relatively simple concepts were difficult to write out - a disyllabic word might require up to 30 or 40 strokes when printed. Simplification probably began with calligraphers using cursive scripts to write letters - many forms such as the simplification of the 言 radical seem to have developed from this. Later on several formal movements, beginning in the Qin dynasty (about 200 BC) and reaching their apogee in Communicst China in the 50s and 60s sought to make writing easier to print, easier to remember and more accessible.

One major trend was the reduction of characters through the use of homophones: 後 → 后.

When I first studied Chinese at college in States in the 80s, we had to learn both forms - students had traditionally taken a year of study in Taiwan but the PRC was opening up and in my junior year I became among the first students from my school to study at Beida. I think simplified characters - which sought in some cases to replicate their phono-semantic aspects were easier to remember (in much the same 5 digit numbers are easier to remember than 8 digit numbers) and in many cases allowed those less educated to remember and recognize basic words. I used them almost exclusively when I wrote - and as I am trying to relearn the language find it much easier to pick things back up with them. I love the beauty and lines of traditional characters but find the 'homophonous hints' sometimes confusing when a character has a radical and three other components to it - which is the signifier of meaning, and which of sound?

Language thrives through change and usage and the last thing I'd like to see is for Chinese script to go the way of the Latin language - worthy for only linguistic and historical reference. For those that mourn the (much exaggerated) passing of traditional characters, I should point out that there are hundreds of not thousands of characters that are no longer in use - some refer to archaic objects (like certain ritual objects funerary rites) but one underlying common feature they all seem to share (for the most part) is that they were a tad too complicated...

Anyway - as a newbie to Chinesepod, I just want to say that this is an incredible, groundbreaking, enjoyable and very relevant educational tool. Rock on.

Take a look at NJSTAR (www.njstar.com). It is a little pricey, but you will have a word processor that can display traditional or simplified characters, side by side if you wish. The have a web browser that you can switch from traditional to simplified characters (back and forth) with a mouse click.

Lost In Asia:

You're absolutely correct! How would the UN abolish a language used by millions of people? Even with the push by the Chinese government to EXCLUSIVELY use Simplified were they able to successfuly abolish Traditional Characters? There are millions upon millions of Chinese supporters and users of Traditional Characters, both in Taiwan, Hong Kong and even to a limited extent in the mainland, so It seems like the answer would be no, so if the Chinese Government can't do it, the UN certainly won't be able to.

But as you said it's only for the use of Chinese characters within UN documents.

Looks like we have nothing to worry about from any UN petitions.

hape, re: the UN abolishing traditional Chinese: that petition is just sort of... odd. The UN has absolutely no power to "abolish" a form of the language - no one's going to suddenly change my keyboard so I can only type simplified.

The UN CAN choose to only use simplified Chinese characters in its documents. It made this decision thirty years ago, when Mainland China replaced Taiwan. The UN only uses a limited number of official languages anyway - six (Arabic, Chinese, Russian, English, French, Spanish). And for Chinese they use simplified text. So do they use Korean or Japanese? No, they don't. But they certainly didn't abolish Korean and Japanese. Nor did they abolish traditional characters.

The petition may date from a smug comment by a Mainland Chinese translator that was misinterpreted/ misunderstood, and passions gave the thing its own momentum. But the UN is no more in the business of abolishing languages than it's in the business of black helicopter covert raids over American soil.

(My own 2 cents: trying to read 畫, 華, 體, and the like on my iPod has got to be the biggest motivation for using simplified, even if the compter era makes the more complex strokes less intimidating.)

It doesn't matter if some of the letters of pinyin are pronounced differently than in English. The same situation occurs in many other languages: German "j" = "y", German "v" = f", French or Portuguese "ch" = "sh", etc. No one ever complains about this for learning European languages. If learning French, your brain easily adjusts between English "pain" and French "pain" (bread). Pinyin is consistent and phonetic, widely-used and therefore standard, and personally I'm thankful not to have had to learn 37 bopomofo symbols before even starting on any of the characters.

Regarding traditional vs. simplified, many more people use simplified (1.3 billion vs. ?? a few dozen million). If you have some strong personal reason to prefer traditional (such as a wife from Taiwan), then go for it. Otherwise, if your focus is the mainland, there's not much benefit in learning traditional characters first. Some people would have you believe that simplified characters are aesthetically unappealing, but that's a subjective and emotional issue. Whatever you're used to will look fine to you. Simplified actually looks cleaner at low resolutions on small screens, because fewer characters end up looking smeared or distorted.

xiaohu wrote: "..once a command over the characters is built up then it's a very easy transition from one to the other."

I think you are wrong. If you first learn simplified characters it will be hard to learn some totally different trad. characters, e.g. old = 舊(旧) or skill = 藝(艺) or body = 體(体)... The other way around (first trad., later simpl. characters) seems the better option.

It's a pity that the UN want to abolish Traditional Chinese in 2008. But you can say No: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/say-no-to-united-nations-abolishment-of-traditional-chinese-in-2008.html

Say NO to United Nations'

Man2Toe:

I do agree with you about leaning a different phonetic character set to guide pronunciation. Looking back on when I was learning Japanese, if I used Romaji it was always a struggle to keep my pronunciation correct, my vowel sounds would inadvertantly digress into the English phonetic system ("A" sound becoming "uh", "O" becoming all English variations depending on the situation instead of the ONE long "O" sound etc, and pronouncing the "R" sound in the English way instead of Japanese way of flapping the tongue against the Aveolar Ridge), but when I used Hiragana and Katakana, it really helped to keep my pronunciation on the right track.

For Chinese though, I've always used Pinyin and never had the experience of learning the phonetics any other way. Looking back on it I can see if I had used Zhuyin it would have been easier because there is no mental reference to an earlier phonetic system sneaking in there polluting the phonetics, so learning the pronunciation would have been more pure.

As for the debate between Simplified and Traditional, IF Simplified were not in wider use in a heartbeat I would say learn Traditional, but the thing is one has to be practical. In my mind the majority rules so since the great majority of Chinese people use Simplified I would say to ANY new learner who wants to learn characters to START with simplified, because again, once a command over the characters is built up then it's a very easy transition from one to the other.

The Chinese Community in the UK mostly uses Traditional, but over the past few years more and more stores in China Town in London have started using Simplified as well.

Like most of you, I prefer Traditional. This was what I learnt first and I love it. I love the history and I love writing them. To be truthful, I had problems reading Simplified when I first started learning Mandarin. Now I can get by & interchange between the two, although my brain still reverts back to Traditional (when writing) when under stress.

It would be a shame if the Traditional Character set disappears; I hope this will not happen as I hope future generation can continue to learn both versions and appreciate the Chinese history behind the language.

Good point KennyK.

I agree, Bazaa, but you should say knowing simplified will allow you to read pretty much all Chinese websites from china (end in .cn). There are also Chinese websites from taiwan (end in .tw, as in http://www.google.com.tw)

Well, I seem to have sparked an interesting discussion.

It may be accurate that my wife just chooses not to read Simplified. I just know that Traditional is likely my best bet for compatibility with her and Taiwan at the moment. I personally think it is useful to sharpen skills on both forms of writing.

Someone earlier mentioned about the false benefit of PinYin to English speakers and I have to agree - in my experience (which is admittedly quite light compared to the vast knowledge here), PinYin does nothing but throw off my pronunciation skills for Mandarin. PinYin becomes the subject of many jokes within our house as well... :)

I think knowing Simplified will allow you to read pretty much all Chinese websites. Although many also have a Traditional version.

I think you hit the nail on the head David. There seems to be a level of functionality for all native learners of HanZi to read either traditional or simplified. Yet what tends to be first communicated is a preference.

So, would the thought of first learning one style of characters well, to a variable point of functionality, then allowing the input of both forms of characters be a healthy theory to life-long learning of Mandarin?

I am saddened that the daily use of traditional characters seems to be in danger of extinction. The era of simplified characters is so small in comparison to the full history of China.

I know this isn't the popular thought, but the popular thought isn't always the most accurate either. I challenge the theory that the use of pinyin is the best way for foreigners to learn Mandarin. This challenge deserves a doctoral thesis so I can't fully articulate my thoughts here. Here is some food for thought anyways.

Take the zh sound for example. To and native English speaker z and h already have a place with sound in the brain. Now learn Mandarin. Not only does the brain have to learn the new sound, but also has to do a little battle of differentiation of which sounds for those two little letters it needs to make. Why not just make a new place in the brain for Mandarin? Not English. Just Mandarin. Learning ㄓ for the Chinese sound of 知 really harder? Is it easier? Hmm, sounds like a doctoral thesis to me.

How about 說 and 说? Is one really easier to learn than the other? The traditional form does have more stoke marks but when it comes to reading and writing Chinese, one has to sweat to learn, either form. Does it matter if a bead of sweat runs down the right side of your face rather than the left?

Trying to think as a child, I find myself thinking that either form is going to take a rather similar effort to learn. Frankly, neither is easy, but it is a fact that both forms take effort to learn.

So, all these proposals basically brings us back again to the notion that "Simplified-Traditional, first and foremost comes to the choice to learn characters period(no matter what form)."

Yes, I have my preference, my comfort zone, as do others. But the idea that pinyin and simplified characters made/makes it easier for a country, and let's lump foreigners into the pile too, to learn reading and writing Chinese, IMO is a bunch of 狗屎.

I would like to continue trying to make some sense of this topic, but its late here. I need sleep. Maybe this tread will become a good place for everyone to express thoughts on this topic further.

大家學學漢字.

大家学学汉字.

Sorry, you did say America. I'm assume Traditional would be mostly used in UK communities.

What if it's an overseas Chinese community? ;)

LONG TERM - I think the choice is easy if you just think where you will live and use your Chinese. If it's America, Taiwan or Hong Kong then go traditional. If it's China, then simplified.

Either way, spend a little time, a good short book, a few hours and just look over the differences, once familiar with them, either is not really that intimidating while learning the other.

READING - hi M2T,

In my experience I do know a few people who can read traditional but not simplified.

What you say though is not incorrect either. Here's why.

If you learned traditional Chinese before the changes in China to simplified and then lived overseas, it is not easy to pick up the simplified.

Unless one studies, and like any other typical adult learner, that's hard sometimes.

If you are a Chinese person on the mainland today, it is not too difficult to go back and forth, especially for those who are more educated and have 'studied' more of the classic and traditional hanzi. There is plenty of exposure to traditional on the mainland from t.v. subtitles, dvds, books, etc.

In Taiwan I can't think of specific cases, but I would imagine the more dealings with the mainland that a person has, the more likely they will have put in a little time to familiarize themselves with the simplified. But a person could easily say "they can't read simplified" when what they mean is they prefer not to.

When I read your postings, I often just guess at the character and slowly it seems to fill in. My level is not high enough to really fluently go back and forth, but I'm not scared of traditional either b/c I started learning those, but only for about three months.

"Believe it or not, my wife says she cannot read Simplified.."

I don't believe it. If a person grows up learning traditional characters it is not that hard to read simplified texts. This is true for all the Taiwanese people that I have met anyways. The Taiwanese people that I have spent time with is not small. In addition, recently I met a man from China that spends a lot of time reading a Traditional Character newspaper so that he can function in both. This man has a doctorate degree so his brain isn't dull but he is able to read both simplified and traditional. This being said, all I really want to say is that learning characters is extremely helpful. Simplified-Traditional, first and foremost comes to the choice to learn characters period. Seems like you have made the choice to learn characters. Fantastic!

May your brain be like super glue so that every character you ever see, simplified and traditional, sticks and never leaves you.

My preference? Traditional

Peace

sweetwatermelon2,

I would NEVER say Simplified Characters are, "UGLY", just that they don't look as attractive or shall we say FINISHED (balanced maybe?) as Traditional. It's a cinch Simplified Characters are head and shoulders (and torso, legs and feet to) above English. In fact, give me simplified over ANY WRITTED LANGUAGE other than Traditional Chinese. So while Simplified may look like a second class citizen to Traditional but when your dealing with such a HIGHT AND LOFTY group, taking second prize is not bad at all!

vrmyndax says: "Believe it or not, my wife says she cannot read Simplified..." That's quite common in Taiwan. And most people are not willing to deal with them. And they are ugly, too.

Thanks for the thoughts folks... seems like I have many options. I need to really learn Traditional if at all possible because I will spend most of my time in Taiwan due to family and whatnot.

Believe it or not, my wife says she cannot read Simplified... so there's another vote for Traditional.

You can get easily get the daily transcripts in traditional. You can less easily view most of the website in traditional, using a Firefox plug-in. I haven't looked at ChinesePod's help functions on this issue in a while - hopefully the features are clearer than they used to be. They're around but often not sign-posted all that well.

If you're IN Taiwan, you definitely want to learn traditional, since you'll get lots of reinforcement from the environment. Outside Taiwan, it's not such a big deal, and it's probably easier to find material that uses Simplified Characters. (Even here in Taiwan, if I want a dictionary that uses example sentences in both Chinese and English, it pretty much has to be a foreign-published simplified character text.)

Truth be told, it really doesn't matter.

If you plan on spending your time in Taiwan, learn traditional. If you plan on mainly being in the mainland, go with simplified. Most overseas Chinese use traditional. So, for example, if you are in the US and married to a woman from Taiwan and have no immediate travel plans, traditional may be the best chioce. In time you will read both.

I remember reading about changing the exercises and other premium stuff to traditional, but it was done with a browser plug-in or something like that.

There's beta support for traditional characters available through a Firefox plugin. It changes annotated site texts (dialogues, expansion sentences, etc.) to traditional Chinese. You can also add traditional words to your vocab lists, etc.. The details are here.

chinesepod.com/2007/04/25/firefox-plugin-for-traditional-chinese/

chinesepod mostly uses simplified, but if i were you i would learn the traditional because it's more beautiful and because your wife is from Taiwan, so she can help you. Although she probably can write simplified fluenty as well, I am guessing she prefers traditional. after you learn traditional, the simplified version is pretty easy to guess, once you learn the changes in the radicals.

Hi vermyndax

I don't know it this will help or hinder, but each of the lessons I receive through iTunes have 2 separate PDFs, one Traditional, one Simplified.

As far as I know they're Simplified, if there is a way to put them into Traditional I've never found it. The thing is if you learn one script it's a pretty easy step into the other. I started off learning Simplified but now whatever I can read in Simplified I can also read in Traditional as well. Honestly the best thing (as much as I hate to say it because I prefer Traditional) is to start off learning Simplified because a far greater portion of the Chinese people know and use Simplified. Your wife will in all likelyhood agree with me. Traditional are only in active use in Hong Kong and Taiwan, although in Mainland China the Traditional script is making a comeback, but it's going to be a long time if ever before it replaces Simplified.

Trust me go with Simplified. They are also easier to learn to write by hand.