All Subscriptions are now Recurring Subscriptions

Dear Shimao_Xiansheng,

The recurring billing button is rather sensitive to guard against any future miss-billing. In cases where there is a glitch in our system, or perhaps there is some browser-issue occurring, the error message pops up to let users know their recurring billing request may not have gone through. In this way, the user can contact us and make sure their billing is indeed cancelled.

It is worth note that in most cases when the error does pop up, the billing has in fact been cancelled and the error is registering because of some other inconsistency that our system is reading. We still like to have the error message present, however, just to be sure.

On that note, I have just checked your account and can see that your recurring billing has indeed been cancelled. You will not be billed again.

I have been using the Chinesepod website since 2008, and I will say that, based on my experience, they have been really good and straightforward (no I am not being paid ha ha). When I visited the Chinesepod office, I got the impression of a friendly and professional setting. My belief is that they are not trying to do things like this deliberately, unless there was a drastic cultural shake-up in the company.

Anyhow, thats all I got, but I can understand that this must be frustrating. I am sure that your problems will be resolved in a timely way.

George from Amesbury

Sorry for the delay. I had a long discussion with tech over this and they have informed me our system is based on a cron-job design.

This means all subscriptions are checked at 23:59 North American PST, and at this time access is disabled if past the expired date.

I am only 3 hours ahead of China. When this happened, it was in the middle of the day before expiry was due. It definitely was not after 9 pm. At what time of the day (in China) do subscriptions expire? Is it midnight at the start of the day, midnight at the end of the day, or some other time?

Dear Rods, Shimao_Xiansheng:

This sometimes occurs due to the time difference between our system and users. Subscriptions dates are set to expire on the same day of the month and time as the purchase date, according to our system's clock.

I had that as well. It seems that your account expires one day earlier than the purchase date (and one day earlier than we are told).

Thank you for presenting our concerns to the meeting.

Dear podster, guolan,

Both very valid points. I will bring this up in our meeting this week and see if we can get the wording changed regarding the cancel recurring billing button.

I haven't checked, but I'll take your word for it. CPod should definitely change the wording from "cancel subscription" to "cancel recurring billing" if that is what the actual result of selecting that choice is. But it would still feel like jumping through hoops to do something that could be offered as an option up front.

Posted earlier by iaing (I'm reposting it because after I responded to it above I realized that whoever at CP monitors these posts might miss it due to my response.)

I use recurring billing for medical, car and general insurance (as well as for some utility bills). For non-discretionary purchases, it makes a lot of sense to use this method - especially if the downside of missing access for a few days is high.

For discretionary purchases, most reasonable people view recurring subscriptions as a potential money grab. Many people lose money over forgetting to cancel discretionary recurring subscriptions.

I just renewed, and have been a long time premium member.

I tried to click cancel recurring and it said "Are you sure you want to cancel your subscription"? This is different to Justin's advice (above) "Even if one's recurring billing is cancelled, that user will still have full access to their subscription until the expiry date shown."

Until this is fixed, and I am notified directly, I can only consider it to be deceptive advice.

Chinese Pod, I know that other businesses who also use automatically renewing subscriptions also use the wording "Are you sure you want to cancel your subscription?" when a customer chooses not to renew.

But it is definitely deliberately worded to make customers worry that they may lose their access completely, because most customers, as the one above, don't realize that the word "subscription" now means "subscription that renews". Though I'm sure you, as other companies do, make it clear in the fine print that they will not lose access to their remaining time, it is very (and deliberately) confusing.

Companies hope that customers will fear losing access and decide against clicking to cancel recurring billing, as the customer above illustrates.

It should be reworded, "Are you sure you want to cancel recurring billing?" so that customers don't panic over choosing this option.

Lets hope this is not all that stands between success and failure. This is their business to run and only cpod knows the particulars, but we have a right to tell them how we feel. I will simply switch to 30 day recurring. Maybe thats what they want. Dont know. Time to move on.

I got a similar message this summer. What happened is, I bought a 2 year subscription in June 2010. Then, when the Black Friday sale price came up that November, I bought (using the balance of my existing credit) another 2 year subscription, effectively shifting my subscription expiration date from June 2012 to November 2012.

The computer must not have recognized this change, and sent me the subscription soon to expire warning (with a 20% discount code--which in retrospect I should have used--d'oh). I e-mailed C-Pod and a human (J.C.) confirmed my real expiration date.

I hope I'm not the "confused over the differences between subscription choices" person they're referring too.

People can figure this stuff out, but like RJ says, any computer bug, or glitch can screw things up, especially, I might add, when multiple companies are involved (C-Pod + billing agency).

Anyway. I'm going to look into single use credit card numbers, prepaid cards and so on, to see if I can find a solution I'm comfortable with.

13.11.2012 I got a message from DP saying that my subscription was due to expire in 3 days time inviting me to buy a new one.

Today I got another message telling me that my subscription would expire today.

My Permium Subscription is due to expire NEXT YEAR November 23!

How can I trust this company and buy a automatic recurring subscription?????????

Well said. I never thought CPod was out to swindle us, just that they made a decision that seemed like the easy choice, which ended up annoying a lot of people. Nothing sinister about that. Stuff happens.

Maybe, but apparently, the "顾客是上帝。 你知不知道?" And March 15th is 消费者权益日。See link D1377 in my post (below)

;-)

We are learning not only Chinese but also Chinese Culture:

The answer "习惯成自然" is probably the Chinese way of dealing with customers.

Cultural differences!?

I could not agree more. If I did not see such great value in CPod as a learning tool I would not be fussing about issues like method of payment: I would just leave. I hope all my cranky posts are taken in the sense of constructive criticism.

Amesburygeorge, my understanding is that the change doesn't apply to any current customers until they sign up again. So, if your account is currently recurring (which it is if you are on a 1-month or 2-month plan), then life will just go on as always. If your account isn't currently recurring (which is isn't if you are on a longer plan), then the next time you sign up, your plan will become a recurring subscription, just like the 1 and 2 month plans already are.

But, if you don't want to have a recurring subscription, you simply go into your account immediately after signing up, and turn off the "recurring" feature. It's an extra step to take, but not all that difficult.

("Turning off the recurring feature" is what Jennyzhu meant when she said we could cancel the subscription at anytime...the subscription she was referring to is the subscription to the recurring automatic payments. She meant we can go into our account at anytime, even long after you signed up, and turn off the "recurring" feature. You will still have an account until your expiration date comes, even though the wording in your account will say you have "unsubscribed" - it's actually just the "recurring" part that you've unsubscribed to.)

Wow, when I write it out like this it DOES sound really confusing!

But it just means, if you don't want your account to automatically keep renewing (and thus recharging your credit card), you just need to go into your account and "unsubscribe" to this feature.

I can't say that I like this change, and in fact it would have made me wary of signing up at all were I new to Chinese Pod, but after having used Chinese Pod for several years, the help that it has been to my studies, and the way it has helped me maintain my motivation, and the progress I have made due to it, far far far outweighs the two minutes it will take to unsubscribe each time I make a new payment. Chinese Pod is by far the most useful language learning tool I have come across in my 10 years of studying.

It would be awesome if Chinese Pod would consider giving us the option to select or unselect a recurring subscription during the payment process. I agree it would make Chinese Pod appear more fair to incoming customers. (We customers seem to get more suspicious of the motives of businesses with each generation!)

Thanks for the providing the credit card processing details, Justin.

So, pardon me... but how can I determine how this applies to me? I couldn't figure it out (I know that I am not the smartest person).

Perhaps they have been sending expiration notifications for the longer-term subscriptions which up to now have not been recurring. After all, it has been in their interest to chase up business.

But I have had my monthly recurring subscription for almost three months, and have not received any reminder emails. But of course, with recurring billing it is no longer in their interest to send reminders - if I am reminded then I might just cancel my subscription.

Based on Justin's post, there is no intention to send a reminder email under the new system, so Chinese Pod's system of maximising unearned income through normal human forgetfulness will continue.

"We've clearly communicated the change."

No, RJ communicated this change. I never look at the Blog. Were it the primary source of information, the preceding posts would be there. As it is, the only response you're getting to Justin's post on the Blog is in the form of spam.

They were sending subscription expiration notifications as late as this summer.

On a lesson page, I see

Try a Premium ChinesePod Subscription for only 99¢ for your first month!

If I click on "Subscribe Now", I am landing on

https://chinesepod.com/store/cart/step2?promotion_code=unlimited

If I click on this page on "Terms of Service" (that's https://chinesepod.com/store/cart/dashboard.html/terms)

I see a "404 Page not found" error.

It seems that I will pay 99 cents for the first month, and later $29, right??

I am unable (as a potential new customer) to see these subscription regulations.

So I will not order this. Sorry ChinesePod. That's not the way to make business.

习惯成自然 = Habit becomes second nature? Are you kidding?

There would be a lot fewer gyms adorning the landscape without recurring, effectively uncancleable subscriptions. You can always just report your credit card stolen to shake any such scams off your account, though.

Justin,

With all due respect, if one can subscribe for 1 year today and cancel the ARB portion of the subscription tomorrow, why not just allow customers to opt out at the time of purchase? Recurring billing has a bad rep. Who hasnt dealt with trying to unsuccessfully cancel a recurring bill over and over again. Even if you can cancel the day after, you still have to wait until the end of the term to see if the cancellation will truly be honored without issue. You say you had "complaints", well you have some now too. It seems invisible complaints always outweigh the visible.

Is the 2 year subscription rate no longer available?

"we have recently come out with new ARB notification emails, which will notify users when a successful/failed ARB transaction has been made"

But how about reminder emails some time BEFORE the transaction?

A customer would only visit the store page when considering a new purchase, and an email notification after the event is not a reminder.

Dear podster and other poddies concerned with ARB,

I think what Jenny means is that users can freely cancel their recurring billing at any time if they do not wish to renew. We are not, of course, encouraging our users to leave ChinesePod altogether. Also, I would like to point out that cancelling recurring billing can be done at absolutely any time, including immediately after purchase if users are uncomfortable with recurring billing. Even if one's recurring billing is cancelled, that user will still have full access to their subscription until the expiry date shown.

We have contemplated many options with regards to our recurring billing, and basically it comes down to simplifying our products and providing the most consistency. We first introduced 1-month and 3-month recurring subscriptions to provide a more convenient option for people to pay in more frequent terms without having the hassle of re-purchasing a subscription again each month/quarter.

However, after a while we began to receive many complaints and confusion over the discrepancy between our recurring and non-recurring products. Overall, there have been many requests for clearer product choices, in particular as it relates to recurring billing. Thus, for consistencies sake, we decided to go for an option that could both satisfy users who preferred to pay in automatic payments, and simplify our product choices at the same time.

It is not our intention to "trick" customers, and we have taken several steps to make sure users are aware of their ARB status. If you visit our new store page, you will notice that the wording and layout has been cleaned up to make it clearer to potential users that they will be buying a recurring product. Furthermore, we have recently come out with new ARB notification emails, which will notify users when a successful/failed ARB transaction has been made. Now, users have 2 mediums from which they can be notified about recurring transactions: one via our system and one via Paypal/their card issuer direct.

Regarding credit card information, we do not keep any card details on our local system for security reasons. The only reference we have are the transaction ID and subscription ID. All customer card details are kept by a more secure third-party authorization processor, which only displays the name and last 4 digits of an individual's card # (all other details are kept hidden, even from us). For more information check out http://www.authorize.net/

I use another site which uses recurring billing. I don't have issues with this site because every year, a couple of weeks before the subscription runs out, I receive an email reminding me of the approaching deadline. In this email I am given the option of following a link to cancel my subscription, or do nothing if I want the subscription renewed.

At the moment I have a monthly recurring subscription with Chinese Pod (and I'm contemplating upgrading to a longer term subscription). I do not receive a reminder email before the subscription is renewed. If this were to change, I think I would change my mind about the intent of the change (which by the way you did not address in your replies).

Justin, bad policy. I've been with you guys for a while and it seems like you are going to lose customers this way. Now I have to monitor when my subscription runs out. At least give us the option.

Sure, that's of course a valid point. I'll let our customer service manager Justin answer you.

Jenny,

If I understand the written policy correctly, if I have a 2-year subscription that has to be subject to automatic renewal, and after 31 days since the automatic renewal I have not requested a refund, Chinese Pod reserves the right to keep all the money for two years of service paid in advance. Is that right? I would like to renew my subscription when it expires, and do so on a non-automatic renewal basis. I do not want to exercise my "right to cancel . . .freely." "Respecting" people's views by welcoming them to leave if they don't like it does not seem like the spirit of the CPod that we have grown to appreciate so much. Maybe Mr. Trendy's choice of words seem a bit confrontational, but he seems to be expressing some serious concerns that have been raised by a number of us old-timers.

Half of our products have always been recurring and users can always cancel their ARB at any time. We've clearly communicated the change. I totally respect people's different views on this. That's why if you are not comfortable with ARB, you have every right to cancel your subscription freely.

This is NOT a satisfactory response.

Please explain the necessity for change.

It seems the only reason is to con money out of forgetful customers.

QUAAACK! Your finger missed its target - at least I hope that was your finger.

Well... I don't need to repeat, you are consistently dishonest, possibly you are not even aware of it. Infatuated? Bobbisocks, I am laughing so hard I can barely stay on my seat. Don't project your own 'issues' onto me. What 'bad blood'? Oh you mean you renaming your sock-puppets after my ex-wife and girlfriend? Did a bit of online stalking to get that did you? Oh Bob, try and get over your fixation on me, think of the karmic cost to you dude. Middle finger to your duck's back. Oh, and take a chill-pill.

I'll repeat: ALL contact SINCE AUGUST has been initiated by you. All of your examples were mid-conversation or pre-August. I am trying to stay away from you, and if you are so infatuated with me that you can't stay away, then there is nothing I can do. As long as it is clear that it is YOU who is doing everything possible to continue the bad blood, and it is YOU who has the power to put an and to the obvious torment you are causing yourself. I can take your version of the truth which you call honesty; the hissy-fits are all coming from you.

Anyway, when you think of me, picture a duck's back. See you H2O.

"...EVERY contact between the two of us since I rejoined the site last August has been INITIATED by YOU..."

Au contraire, you are as mendacious as you are sly Bob. You clearly are not counting the posts of yours you quickly deleted, let alone other examples of your character and creative spirit. But then to borrow your own floppy phrase, that is what I have to come to expect from you.

Stay away? Aww... can't take a little free speech/honesty huh? Don't hold your breath old sport. I was here bartering words with your betters long before! Now... 1, 2, 3.... delete!

Oh by the way I now screenshot your every objectionable utterance.

I thought it was 'hasta la vista' ?? But you've made similar promises in the past.

Just thought I should remind you that EVERY contact between the two of us since I rejoined the site last August has been INITIATED by YOU. ie. the discourse has been in the order Me - You (jumping in like now) - Me - You -...

Why don't you do yourself a favour by simply resisting the temptation to butt in? I DON'T want to talk to you, and I will not jump in on your conversations, but I'm certainly not going to let responses like this go unanswered.

Just stay away and we can both live in peace. The ball is in your court.

Ha ha, a creative and enterprising sock-puppeteer (such as yourself Bob) could have really taken advantage. Did you resist the temptation, or do all your 'guises' now have (soon-to-expire) subscriptions? Multiply that $56 by how many? *chuckle*

CPod has had a problem with monthly billing which it has only just fixed. With their 99c offer for the first month, if you paid with Paypal you kept getting charged 99c instead of $29 per month even after the first month. I'm wondering how many thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars CPod lost before discovering the problem, and why it took them so long to discover that actual income did not match expected income.

In all fairness, I have subscribed, cancelled, and re- subscribed again, twice, due to the need to change credit card numbers billed, twice over a 3 month period. So far all has functioned well and without issue. Oh, I do get an error message when cancelling the recurring billing that says you need to call, but then the cancellation does go through fine and is reflected immediately on your payment history (without calling). They should fix this error message that pops up for no reason, but the fact that the recurring function can be cancelled at any time, AND it seems to work ok, makes it much less of an issue. You can subscribe for 6 months, cancel the recurring requirement the next day, and then you can re-subscribe in 6 months (or not) as you always would have done without recurring billing. An extra step, but as long as it works without issue, no harm no foul. My main concern was that turning off the recurring billing may not go smoothly, but so far no problem.

Agree... voting with my feet. bye

I totally agree. I also intensely dislike automatic re-billing or recurring subscriptions, and hope this can be terminated. I should say that I have a 12 month subscription. How difficult is it to maintain 2 systems, provided it's made totally clear at the outset?

100% in agreement. And thank you for starting this thread, RJ. I wouldn't have known about this otherwise.

I agree with you

I have always avoided doing business with any entity that insists on forcing me to give them permission to bill my credit card indefinitely. I should not have to take action to stop a future billing, in order to not buy something. I prefer to take action if and when I want to buy. Period. Recurring billing makes no sense whatsoever when dealing with long term subscriptions. Who knows what they will want, need, or be able to afford in 6 months or two years? I do not want to have to rely on cpod to get it right when I decide to cancel. There can be no bugs, no mistakes, no oversights, no misunderstandings, no tricks, and no software malfunctions. So now I have to watch my card statement to be sure my intentions have been honored correctly. I just dont want that extra burden on me, not to mention the amount of work and frustration involved in correcting such mistakes. If I must sign up for a recurring subscription, it will be one month at a time to minimize the potential damage if my wishes are ignored. Cpod does not have the best track record in dealing with transactional or App bug issues after all. I am somewhat offended by this attempt to strong arm their customers. Even their reason for this change, "confusion", makes no sense. If anything they have added to any confusion and certainly are doing their best to court bad feelings and mistrust. This is a Bad idea in my opinion, and I also would like to see them reconsider.

I hope so too. I have to renew soon!

I agree. I hope CPod will reconsider this unfortunate decision which tarnishes the image of a good and reputable company. Credit card security was not even an issue I had considered. In Rod We Trust.

Briefly then, Automatic Renewal should be 'Optional' at time of purchase, and customer credit card info should be expunged at the customer's request, immediately after the purchase is completed.

"I always look at vendors that require automatically renewing billing as being slightly suspect."

So do I. If someone forgets to cancel, more money for Chinesepod. From http://chinesepod.com/terms

Billing, Plan Modifications & Payments,

3. Payment Terms.

"You may cancel recurring subscriptions at anytime. When your subscription is cancelled you will still be able to access our services until your account runs out of credit."

So, you can keep using your subscription till your term runs out. Good under normal circumstances, I think. But, if you forget to cancel within 30 days ...

6. Refund Policy.

Subscriptions

"In the case of recurring subscriptions we reserve the right to refuse refunds if the user fails to cancel the billing cycle before the first 30 days and/or fails to submit a refund request within the first 30 days."

So, if for whatever reason you do not cancel your subscription in time, you're out the full subscription amount.

Furthermore, automatic renewal means that Chinesepod does not/can not expunge customer credit card information after the purchase is completed. Customer credit card information must, therefore, be sitting on a server somewhere. A plumb target for hackers. One can only hope that information is properly secured.

I am embarrassed that I didn't go actually read the link before posting. I did go try to find a way to opt out, and failed, not realizing that the new policy didn't even apply to me yet. Thank you for pointing this out for me.

I'm glad there will be a way to opt out of the recurring subscription when I renew my subscription in the future. That will work well.

Note to self: Read the link before rushing to judgement. Sorry, ChinesePod.

Hi guolan, The Cpod blog post RJ linked to above says this...

"Existing subscriptions will not be affected by the new product changes. This means that if you are currently under an active 6, 12, or 24 month subscription, you will not be automatically billed upon expiry. Automatic recurring billing only applies to new subscriptions purchased after November 12, 2012. "

So it might not apply to your subscription at the moment. The link also has info on how to cancel it....

I'm sure you could get your bank to block such charges being made on your credit card.

I didn't know that, that's cool. But, I used a credit card. Maybe Chinese Pod will set up a way to opt out of the recurring payment method. Otherwise, I'll just have to write it in my calendar a few days before my subscription expires to let Chinese Pod know if I don't want to re-subscribe. Or, maybe I'll write them a letter now, and they can turn it off for my account somehow? Hmm. As a rule, I don't like recurring payments on my credit card. I prefer to only have payments I directly authorize being made.

Not sure about this. But if you paid by Paypal, you can block future payments through your Paypal account.

Chinese Pod, I went into my account to try to turn off the recurring subscription for my 6 month subscription, but could not find a way to do this. Is "podster" above correct when he says this is "required" and there is no way to turn it off? Please, please tell me he's wrong.

*sigh*

sounds like blame the customers. I guess I am one of those easily confused dimwits.

For whatever it may be worth, I always look at vendors that require automatically renewing billing as being slightly suspect. I don't doubt Cpod's integrity and would still recommend CPod to others, but if I were evaluating it for the first time the recurring billing would definitely be a strike against it in my book