popup translator

now wouldn't it be cool if it could predict entire chinese phrases?...give you a menu to choose from

By the way, this particular dictionary is pretty good at finding translations at entire phrases. For example, if you type in "make a mistake," you should get several options. I think it is because it has access to many databases.

Hey,I'm glad I think I've just found the toggle on and off button [a very important function to find]...after a slow start it suddenly got overenthusiastic and started translating everything including the English...like I'd go to click on "Community" and immediately a definition would pop up for community...same with "reply" or anything else my cursor happened to come within the vicinity of ,hehe

Hey thanks heaps for this xiaophil...I just gave it another whirl and this time it downloaded without a hitch [I don't know why it wouldn't work last time]. It took a while to kick into action but now seems to be working on skype which is just great. Much appreciated mate :)

thanks xiaophil. When I first saw you're comment I was thinking...I don't recall chinasnippets at all. But now I see that it is a dictionary by google/kingsoft and following the links you are right..we did discuss this before. I remember trying to install without any luck before ...made difficult by the fact that the pages are all in Chinese. I'll try again. Do you use it btw?

There is this one:

http://www.chinasnippets.com/2008/05/08/google-kingsoft-chinese-dictionary/

I think we discussed this before, right? We agreed that the translations are sometimes sketchy.

I've no expierences with any other popup translator so I can't realy compare it to another one. I' m now at the point, that I push the popup window in the farest corner of the screen and leave it there, so that it doesn't appears again. That works quite well. ;) The point, that it takes quite a long time to load, fits to the experience I've made, because it loads almost 100.000 items when you start the program. The good thing is, that it also translates complete chunks, which makes it easier to get the meaning of a scentence if there is more than one character you don't know.

before you pointed out the google/kingsoft one, it was the only one I knew of [thanks to tal pointing it out some time ago] that could work outside of websites. I wouldn't have minded paying the $50 I think it was to get it...which I was meaning to do,but from memory it took a long time loading everytime I started my computer.Still I was going to subscribe when I got around to it if I didn't find a better alternative.

That does sound annoying. Is there any reason to prefer it over perakun or others?

hey thanks ma_tai. I downloaded it on the weekend and I particularly like that it can save words you look up. I'm not aware of any of the other online dictionaries doing this. It would be nice if this was then able to be transferred easily to anki.

Yeah, you just download the nciku toolbar (http://www.nciku.com/tool/toolbar). I use Firefox, so it is not that obtrusive, up in the corner next to the search bar. The popup translator is called the "Tooltip Dictionary". I set to translate when I highlight a word, and it works for any webpage.

It is awesome for reading forum posts when I don't know the characters. Saves heaps of time. Though I everytime I read a Cpod pdf I miss it.

what's that?...nciku has a popup translator?...cool...please tell more..what search engine does it work with?

ok,I've just installed it ,particularly because I like the sound of this feature you mention:

if you click through to the dictionary it will save the word in a vocab list and you can revise the list later

It does however mean when I read a book or a newspaper in hard copy I find I am not as good as I thought I was

..hehe,yeah I've noticed that too. Which is why supplementing one's learning with some reading from books and the like is a good idea...if one can got a hold of such material at near one's level.

If I lived in China I would probably not hesitate to use translators, wouldn't have the luxury of choosing not to read so many things.

I guess for now I'll continue with the old-fashioned way, going to dictionaries for every word I don't know (but at least we have online and electronic dictionaries now. Think back to when we only had paper!). That makes me slow of course, but my feeling is that as far as getting a lot out of CPod (including participation in 中文吧) goes I'm good. Being a slower reader is only a tenth of the reason my Chinese output has been scarcer and much more inconsistent that I would like. The other 90% is being incredibly slow at composing anything in Chinese.

About your earlier comments on participating in 中文吧, 1) it's true that there are few "models" out there, but I don't think it would really benefit anyone to have Changye (or anyone other than a teacher really), officially made a "model". Not saying he's not qualified. I agree, he's probably the only contender now. But I think he himself has said several times in the past, he doesn't always write 100% error-free. He's practicing just like we all are, and it can't be fair to give him that responsibility and take the fun away for him. After all, as far as I know Changye while illustrious is just another poddie like us, not a paid staff member.

2) Same thing Xiaophil has said. 中文吧 is a place for me to just really make myself have some Chinese output and not fall back on English the second I find it hard to say something in Chinese. It's a training room, a dojo maybe but without the 师傅.

3) Of course I too would love to have my Chinese corrected, but I don't expect anyone to be so charitable. People have to be paid for that kind of labor and expertise I think. * which reminds me of this idea Henning came up with last year--paid homework. Don't remember the details but the basic idea was that students who wanted to could pay a certain price per "homework" assignment, to have our written Chinese corrected by CPod teachers. I think it's a good idea. Could be good business for CPod!

4) I think we look to our native speaker teachers--Jenny, Jiaojie, Connie, David and all the other teachers for models here on the site. That's enough models I think, even though I would always like to see more, and it's always educational even to look at visiting native-speaker comments that aren't necessarily to be emulated. At 中文吧 occasionally our teachers even join us in some of the discussions. And yes, sometimes we're fortunate to have such friends like Suansuanru come by and help. So I'd still recommend participating there.

Is my Chinese sometimes way over your head? It's often way over mine. Is it simply bad Chinese? I'm sure a lot of it is.

I've tried before, and still would like, to have a 中文吧 discussion that stays lower level in difficulty (not that you ever really want to try to restrict what people say ...), otherwise only the more advanced students will enjoy being there or want to try. Keep it really simple you know. I'm not saying that I don't want to see discussions on politics and social issues there. But I think it's so important for those of us still building, to practice first expressing ourselves in Chinese within our means, instead of thinking in our native languages first then trying to translate into Chinese (yeah I need to take my own advice. it's hard.). It's frustrating because we aren't children, we have more complex ideas and positions we want to communicate. Anyway, think I'll give it another try. Would love to see more people there.

I use pop-up dictionaries when reading foreign languages online, in order not to waste time. On the other hand, I mainly use paper dictionaries when I write foreign languages because they are more reliable in some ways than online ones.

“有改善余地”就是一件好事儿，这就意味着你可以继续享受学中文的乐趣。

I think I saw on the website that the guy who wrote perakun learnt Japanese first before tackling Chinese?

在中国没有人从来没有对我说‘你的中文很流利'! Most seem so happy if they can just understand me. :)

I'd love to see some of that instruction.

I'd love to remember half of it, heh? If airlines didn't have 20kg limits I'd have it with me. The subject matter was always intriguing - generally comes under the heading of 'Living a good/moral life'. But there were a few broader takes on this like the pollution problems in China and the threat of HIV/AIDS. But it is time I reviewed the analytical side of the course - I think I am ready for it now.

'a combinations of methods can be a good thing'

I am definitely a believer, which is why I now have a pop-up translator. :)

Just for the record, "pera pera" (ぺらぺら) means "speak fluently/eloquently" in Japanese.

These classes also gave us a lot of instruction on radicals, and other analytical stuff like word recognition - things that help the process of guessing meaning.

...I'd love to see some of that instruction.

Bizarre behaviour?

...hehe,well it doesn't seem that way to me but you may be asking the wrong bloke. I have all 3 operating systems at home,have tried all the major browsers...I tend to try all methods too.Guess I've never become a power user of anything though,which may be a drawback of being a try everything kind o guy.I guess I believe in general in giving anything reasonable a go and then zeroing in on the best and going with that. Sometimes a combinations of methods can be a good thing in it's own right though and sometimes just the change itself can be refreshing. Just like having a varied diet.Different methods will benefit in different ways so often I think it can be complimentary rather than an either/or situation.

Ideally,when not feeling lazy I think it's best to combine both.That is go with bodawei's method first...read a passage and see how much one can understand/infer.Then go back and mouse over the unfamiliar words.

That's the same theory that my yuedu teachers tried to shove down our throats. I only half buy it. Yes, getting the gist out of a passage despite not knowing all the words is a good skill to have. So by all means, try to do that sometimes. However, I hated that I was supposed to ignore the particular meanings of the words and have no idea how to pronounce them (okay, the radicals give clues, but you know what I mean). I always looked down at that passage and think to myself, "All those wonderful words that I would like to use in the future, but the teacher wants me to not bother." Personally, I remember a word by mentally pronouncing them in my head over and over. But regardless, I think it all comes down to what a person wants to emphasize and how that person's mind ticks. I wouldn't go so far as to condemn any method, only give my opinion.

Barbs - you make a very good point. I used to do reading classes where we were given readings which seemed way beyond our level, but we were encouraged to 'solve' the meaning without dictionaries, These classes also gave us a lot of instruction on radicals, and other analytical stuff like word recognition - things that help the process of guessing meaning. Then we would get a couple of clues and off you would go and try and get the rest. Then answer questions on the reading - always with a strict time limit! This was China. :)

Point is, a pop-up translator is inconsistent with this learning method. A translator gets in the way even when you are conscious of the drawbacks. But I see the benefits for reading websites when I am in a hurry, or I have little context. I am still in two minds, and as I have two laptops I have put the translator on one and left it off the other! Bizarre behaviour? :)

zhen,

well I think it just comes down to being aware of using it only for words you really don't know...if you're conscious of that then it makes things much quicker and more fangbian. I guess the other potential pitfall I've noticed is that I've also noticed I often double check words I"m 90%sure of.....or whatever % you want to call it. In that case I"m not sure if it's a good thing or not.I think this is where it could possibly make one a bit lazy.....not pay enough attention to detail....with the thought being that I might just get familiar enough with a character to know roughly what it looks like and then let the popup do the rest.Also in such a scenario if one reads on the context will often confirm if you're likely reading the character correctly...and you may miss that important exercise if you jump onto it straight away with a popup. So basically I think popups are excellent tools,but like any excellent tool it still comes down to how you use it.

I wonder if my fear of popup translator dependency is irrational then (I've never used. So yes, that means I end up giving up on reading a lot of things). But I know how lazy I can be, how unwilling so much of the time to do the hard work.

Sometimes I catch myself skimming every word with perakun and then wondering what my problem is.

...exactly. There have been times when I have caught myself doing this...mainly on long passages written in advanced Chinese discussions and then I've realised I'm skimming over words I know as well as the ones I don't. I have then made a conscious effort to avoid doing that.But I agree,as long as one is careful not to do that it definitely makes learning faster and more efficient and as RJ says if you don't know a word you don't know it and need to look it up.

Exactly. It is only a crutch if someone gets lazy and doesn't even bother to read anything without the translator. Sometimes I catch myself skimming every word with perakun and then wondering what my problem is. But by in large, pop-up translators have made my studying experience much better. As kujuliet2 says, it is extremely helpful when reading newspaper articles and such where the language is quite a bit more complex than what we would see in a CPod dialog.

I do not see how pop-up translators can be a crutch. If you don't know a character or a word, you don't know it. You have two choices, look it up or continue not knowing it. Pop-ups are faster than paper dictionaries and therefore facilitate learning.

Yeah, there is undoubtedly a lot of poor Chinese going on at 中文吧. Your point is valid. Having some people designated as near or at native level would be helpful. Perhaps only Changye reaches that mark?

That said, for me 中文吧 is just a way for me to get in the habit of expressing myself in Chinese and finding out exactly what I can't even begin to express, and then go from there. This is why I recommend my students go to English corners. They always complain that it is too Chinglishy, but I think the more one talks, the more one improves, and the same goes for writing. However, it is almost definitely three steps forward and one step back. Incorrectly communicating in the same fashion over and over of course reinforces bad habits.

Hmm, haven't tested it to that extent - interesting. Personally I prefer to write/speak my bad Chinese and hope that someone will correct me. I am kind of amazed at the Chinese I see written here by poddies; it is either way above my level or poor Chinese expression but I would never know. I can usually pick the English written in Chinese, but the Chinese written in Chinese I just don't know whether I should use it as a model or not. And ZhongWen won't help on that point. (I think this may be an old discussion on these boards. How do we know what is good or bad Chinese?) One reason why I rarely venture into your otherwise excellent 中文吧 :) I think that maybe ChinesePod could help us out by accrediting certain poddies whose Chinese we should be able to trust? Apart from some native speakers like suansuanru, Changye is currently our only benchmark, what do you think?

I have found one minor drawback with ZhongWen pop-up translator. It can't read characters that are inputed into a text box before pressing reply. In theory, our Chinese is so good, that we should never doubt what we have written, so it shouldn't be a problem, 啊啊.

谢谢大家！ That's all very helpful! And bodawei, I had actually wondered much of the same, if popup translators would help or hinder my learning. I go back and forth on this, it seems like they have the potential to become a crutch, but at the same time they're immensely helpful for someone like me (transitioning from intermediate to upper intermediate) to read more difficult websites without spending six hours with a dictionary.

I figured I could just find a good one, and then decide whether or not it's a good thing for me to use it. :)

Thanks again, everyone!

RJ

I would suggest giving Chrome a whirl if you think your browser is too slow. Otherwise, forget it. I would love Firefox if it were faster.

I use perakun and words-chinese pinyin dictionary. Both of these are firefox add ons and I tend to like "words" better than perakun for quick translation of entire sentences. Perakun is good for word by word breakdown.

Outside of Firefiox (IE) I use Microsoft translator - There are so many now.

Chrome I have not tried yet.

bodawei

I just tried it out. Seems to work pretty good upon initial inspection. Now I have to decide whether or not to stop using Firefox. Perakun was my number one reason for using Firefox, but there are other add-ons I enjoy. Hmmm. Anyway, thanks for mentioning ZhongWen.

I think that it was released in March - I read a forum thread before I loaded it. All the comments were positive. As I say, I have no prior experience but it seems okay to me; it provides a lot of information (possibly too much?) and also in the default setting provides traditional form alongside simplified. I've decided to leave that on; trying to at least improve my reading of traditional characters. To read two character words you kind of just move your finger slightly and it gives you the word; so it does single characters and words without any problem. Even longer expressions - it picked up at least one four character expression for me. It has each tone a different colour in the pinyin but you can turn that off.

I had no idea there was a Chrome popup translator now! Very exciting!