Best aha moments in your Chinese learning journey

I don't know if I did.. it is possible.. it could also be possible that I was simply scared.. haha :)

you forget about all the little tricks you use

。。或者你故意压制它们为了让你可以练习你的发音而然后忘记它们

没关系，没关系

我等你回来了，呵呵

i think study chinese must be speak ...write..

you can have a chinese friend talk with you...

"And the difference is non-trivial. Similar to the Japanese girl who asked me if she could borrow my 'righter'. There was little difference between L and R in her mind, but it just sounds wrong to us. Yet I would never correct her, or tell her that her pronunciation was poor (other than that, it wasn't)."

This is an interesting point... it's something you get fairly early on when you are "trying your best" to speak the language with native speakers. In some instances it can be quite helpful and normal.. especially when it is already established that you want the listener to help you. In other situations, it can be quite annoying, insulting and even hurtful in some situations. Chinese talk about "loss of face" and these types of situations can lead to extreme loss of face in some situations to the non-native speaker.

One day I was chatting idly with a friend in Chinese and this young girl, who was employed by my friend, starts to pick my speech apart like I was a 5 year old speaking my first words. Yet, there I was having a conversation, in Chinese, right next to her.. sure.. my pronunciation isn't perfect and it's not even great.. but my friend can understand me and I can understand her.. so what's the problem?

Anyway, it doesn't really bother me in the long-run but at the time it was quite embarrassing and insulting to be corrected in that situation by someone else. Whereas, the same friend I was chatting with corrects me all the time.. I guess it depends on how you are corrected, and how pedantic the person is. I tend to ignore and avoid the pedantic ones if I can. :)

Hi xiaophil

Your original post is controversial enough to attract many comments. Good job!

When I made my original comment, I had no idea there would be so much to discuss. Oh well, haha.

I seem to be missing something here. Anyone care to enlighten me?

呵呵，我不同意小腓力是胖了，而且听说他算是很帅

Yeah, they really are a nice chubby couple!

They would make a beautiful couple, don't you think ?

when pronunce Ch,your tongue may be "back and high",and with the sound of "q"which comes out of your mouth your tongue may be"forward and low".

Hi go_manly

I don't think they are ALMOST the same, but I love your "Japanese girl" story. Probably the same thing is happening to xiaophil. Native speakers are very generous to foreign people who learn their language.

I did say the vowels were ALMOST the same.

"Except when the conversation is rapid'. Well that's what we are all preparing ourselves for. If we want to understand rapid speech, we have to be able to distinguish between these consonants.

And the difference is non-trivial. Similar to the Japanese girl who asked me if she could borrow my 'righter'. There was little difference between L and R in her mind, but it just sounds wrong to us. Yet I would never correct her, or tell her that her pronunciation was poor (other than that, it wasn't).

To give another example, say 'pat' and 'tap' out loud. I bet you can't tell that the two p's are different sounds. Yet there are languages (in Africa I think) which distinguish between these 2 sounds.

Hi hellotherebrick

Your new avator is just as hilarious as mine.

I disagree - I feel that the vowel sounds are quite distinct. I always hear the difference, the 'double vowel' sound indicated by the presence on the 'i', except when conversation is rapid. Conversely, the 'ch' and 'q' sounds seem identical.

The Yale system expresses the differences and similarities more clearly than pinyin:

chang/chang, qiang/chyang, chao/chau, qiao/chyau, chou/chou, qiu/chyou (First Pinyin, then Yale)

Hi xiaophil

I still can't find a positive reason that you don't need to pay much attention to the difference between "ch" and "q", even if they are somewhat similar to each other, because both "ch" and "q" are actually not so difficult to pronounce (or to distinguish). Do you apply your theory to "zh/j" and "sh/x"?

go manly

I think the vowels do sound different. The a in chang sounds soft. The a in qiang also sounds soft (but in my mind it feels a tad harder), but the i preceding it sounds like a hard e to me. Same explanations for the others. Okay, work is starting now. Gotta go.

What about chang and qiang, chao and qiao, chou and qiu?

The vowel sounds there are almost identical, and it becomes essential to distinguish between the consonant pairs.

Changye

Yes, I think the consonants sound about the same in the case of “吃” (chi) and “七” (qi1). Note: I said "about". I am conceding that there is a bit of a difference, but to put it this way, it is far more important to pronounce the vowels correctly. If the consonants are a little off, I guess most people won't notice too much and probably just think it is a person's accent, but to me "chi" sounds like "chir" and "qi" sounds like "chee" (as we might spell them in English if we were to forgo pinyin). Get those vowel sounds mixed up and we are in deep water.

Hi xiaophil

My listening comprehension skills are very poor. For example, I can't tell the vowel "n" from "ng", partly because the difference is not important in the Japanese language. So "n" and "ng" always sound the same to me, but I still try to pronounce them properly (= differently) when speaking, at least.

Hi xiaophil

Do you think the consonants "ch" and "q" are the same when they are respectively used in, for example, “吃” (chi) and “七” (qi1)?

PS Be noted that the "i" in "chi" is slightly different from that in "qi".

You make it sound so simple when you talk about tongue position. But is the initial placement of the tongue the main factor of pronouncing ch and q, or is it in preparation for the the vowel that follows? At any rate, hearing is believing, and I have (obsessively) gone through the trouble of isolating the sounds and listening to them separately, and they sound very similar. They are different, so you can claim victory to a degree, but my opinion is that if one focuses on and nails down the vowel sound, the q or ch will naturally sound correct. Okay, wife will kill me if I continue to detract from her Saturday time with me, so I'll leave it at that.

I can only suggest that you observe people's mouth and tongue as they make these two sounds. They sound similar to English speakers because we compare them both to English ch as a baseline. Chinese speakers don't have that baseline, and see them as quite different sounds. I would say the degree of difference is similar to that between u and ü.

changye

Thanks for the advice, but how am I supposed to pronounce them differently if I can't hear the difference? And again, I do hear a BIG difference between qu and chu. I just isolated the ch and q sounds with audacity. They do sound slightly different (e.g. q has a more hissing sound), but are very, very similar, and in my opinion, the difference is mostly due to the influence of the vowels that follow.

Perhaps we can all agree on this: the major difference between qu and chu is the vowel sound? (or better yet, agree to disagree?)

The main point here is that regardless if there is or isn't a big difference between q and ch, I can pronounce these two relatively well after my discovery.

Hi xiaophil

As for the consonants "ch" and "q", I recommend you try to pronounce them differently even if they sound the same to you.

Hi xiaophil

Looks like your Chinese pronunciations are somewhat "energy-saving", hehe.

Well ch is like the English ch, in that it it pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the palate. Only the tongue is further back in the mouth, creating a more abrupt and puffier sound.

q is not pronounced with the tip of the tongue, The sound is made by the blade of the tongue against the palate, while the tongue-tip is held down and out of the way.

Go Manly and Changye,

I honestly can't hear a difference. You really can? I am often told my pronunciation is pretty good. Could be that Chinese are just being polite, but actually, I always felt that this is one part that I can do well (normally). I figure it doesn't really matter what you guys and I think as long as Chinese understand us and we understand them. It is interesting though. I just spent five minutes listening to CPod's pinyin chart and honestly my opinion hasn't changed.

Hi xiaophil

> the q and ch sound exactly the same (and likewise sh/x, zh/j sound the same too)

Really?

I'm sorry to disagree, but q and ch do not sound the same at all, and they are made using entirely different tongue positions. The same goes for the other pairs.

Exactly, that is what I am saying. I think you don't understand what I wrote, which might very well be my fault. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the u's sound different. The u in qu is actually a ü sound. That said, the q and ch sound exactly the same (and likewise sh/x, zh/j sound the same too).

The difference between ch and q is the same as the difference between sh and x, and between zh and j. The first in each pair can only be followed by u, and the second can only be followed by ü, but both are still different sounds. But perhaps your formulation allows for that without you realising.

At least how I formulated it in my head, there is only one difference.

You mean the second difference?

washing room have...

洗手间里有。。

我不知道，不过在这里一个酒吧有在厕所

好像没有吧。在你的国家有吗？

对，至少，我希望有一些包间有单向镜子。你知道如果有吗？

hi,did you mean that there is an one-way mirror in a 包间?

Sorry .. you are right, it should be:

我们可以透过单向镜子看别的人。

You can probably also use 监视 jiānshì (to monitor, watch) here:

我们可以透过单向镜子监视别的人。

Sounds kind of kinky

hehe, maybe, but it's not sounding too kanky the way it currently stands...no 看？

我们可以透过单向镜子别的人。 (We can see the others though the one-way mirror.) Sounds kind of kinky.

great tip thanks mate.I'll have to remember that one.I like those one way mirror affairs.I wonder if any have them and zenme shuo?