Racism - the ugly side of 中国

Never mind, I love Big Brother.

tal,

And yeah baba, what was that site all about?

..it must be your infamy mate,otherwise I think big brother wouldn't be so interested.其实，我觉得我找了那个网站因为我找了一个话题 on google,and stumbled across it.

Hey RJ, you should know me better than that! 你放行吧！

And thank you!

Tal,

Im teasing you. I hope you know that. So glad to hear you are finally feeling whole again.

Being both infamous (apparently) and in good health again (finally), I am afraid I cannot resist making one more post here to add a link to this fascinating piece in the New York Times which contains a brace of thoughtful articles by noted Chinese academics on the subject of racial tensions in China.

And yeah baba, what was that site all about?

Hey,what's this site all about?:

http://www.fane.cn/forum_print.asp?forum_id=24&view_id=53824

XiaoHu,

Sorry to hear you are having a bad year, but its the bad years that make the good years identifiable. Actually this sounds a lot like deja vu to me. Dont let the ex and the poison atmosphere she creates, keep you from cheerfully spending time with your son. Kids change so fast that any break in continuity does the kind of damage to your relationship that is not easy to fix.

Switching subjects back to Chinese, You also have to realize that everyone has their own set of such issues and priorities that will influence their study habits, regardless of passion or commitment. Some people may very well be doing their best, even though it looks to you as if they are laggards.

Here's hoping 2010 is a better year for you.

RJ

rjberki

I have no shortage of passion, but I am short on time.  I mentioned about a weight problem I developed over the last few years.  There's also another issue that after my ex-wife left I fell into a horrible depression.  For months I didn't know the wherabouts of my son, she wouldn't pick up the phone or return calls.  I went to the police and was told to file a report with child & family services, which is just that, only a report, they don't actively help you. 

Earlier this year I was awarded custody of my son on the weekends which my ex won't honor. She will keep delaying bringing him to my house until late in the evening, so I only get a few hours a week to see him.  I missed out on his first steps and his first words.  Father's rights in this country are horrible, Fathers have NO rights. 

I talked about this situation with a friend and my attorney and they both advised me to just keep cool and maintain friendly relations with the ex. So I'm just trying to grin and bear it.  It's hard though. 

08 was a horrible year for me. I would just get up, go to work, come home and veg.  I gained ALOT of weight, so since the beginning of the year I've been working hard to take it off, going to the gym, which takes a few hours a night.  Between two hours on the road to and from work everyday, coupled with studying so my Chinese won't backslide takes up most of the rest of my free time.  The thing is, each one of those entries takes hours to write.  It's mainly formatting, I wish I had a plug and play program like Gouniky, that would help get things finished more quickly.

I have every intention of finishing my accent reduction group.  I see that as some kind of positive contribution I can make to the overall Chinesepod picture.

Hi miantiao

The group "Accent Reduction Chinese" is just worth reading.

miantiao,

Here's the goup mate.Actually,your nag trotted that way once before while you were napping,hehe.It's all about reducing your accent [in our case Aussie] so you sound more like a native Chinese.Looks worth a look.

@miantiao, a group started by Xiaohu some time ago to discuss/help others reduce their accent when speaking Chinese.

accent reduction？是什么东西啊？

Xiaohu,

Please dont underestimate the passion, or dedication of others. You mentioned your project on accent reduction. I really wish you would finish it because I found it quite useful and was looking forward to its completion .What happened to your passion here?

RJ

changye,

多谢为那个词“狮子座流星雨”。我很喜欢the breakdown:

狮子..lion

座...seat ,base ??

狮子座。。。constellation of Leo

流..to flow

星...star

流行。。。flowing star [or in English..shooting star]=meteor

雨...rain

流星雨。。。meteor shower

I would be too lazy to try and remember the term for such an infrequent event,but knowing the breakdown makes it easy.

From my experience, this kind of predictions often miss the mark

...you betcha.I remember several years ago now hearing about how it was going to be huge...heaps of meteors...and we drove excitedly to the highest spot on the other side of the city in the middle of the night to find literally thousands of people rock up ,some in their jammies,but very few meteors ever rocked up...bit of a fizzer.But bumped into a few mates and the rareness of the event and the atmosphere was something special.I thought I heard it was meant to be less after that and I haven't heard as much of a fuss made of it since as there was that year.

@Changye

Forget about racism and watch the sky tonight.

haha...is this thread still about racism?!?

Thanks for the tip on the sky...doubt it will be much use in the cloudy UK!

Forget about racism and watch the sky tonight. The Leonid meteor shower (狮子座流星雨) will reach a peak today. Some astronomers forecast that you might perhaps be able to see a few hundred meteors an hour, if you are lucky enough. God knows, anyway, don't miss it!

Disclaimer; From my experience, this kind of predictions often miss the mark, hehe.

Hi, xiaohu!

So here's why I'm not using Chinese on these forums:

1: I use these forums for two things: to socialize with people who share my interest in China and Chinese (I have no such people around me where I live) and to ask questions and sometimes answer other people's questions about Chinese grammar, word usage or similar. Both of these things are a hell of a lot easier to do in English than in Chinese. It is also less time-consuming, which means more time to study Chinese. Reading and writing about Chinese and China on these boards keeps me interested and motivated. (Also, CPod is obviously not just about the language but also about the culture and country, or the Dear Amber would never have been launched.)

2: When casually reading Chinese, I will encounter words I do not yet know. I'll look them up, and then move on. The chances that I remember the words later is considerably improved if I know the characters and if I encounter it again in a short time. This means that the higher my level, the more characters I know and the more text I can read, the higher the chances that I'll remember the words I encounter. If I can't remember them, the result is me looking up a word, then forgetting it, which is time-consuming and not beneficial to my learning. When I'm working with a text (that is, a CPod dialogue), I work with it intensively. I memorize every unknown word and add it to my growing flashcard list, which I am constantly revising using Spaced Repetition.

3: I'm not in China and I won't be for a couple of months. I'm not bothered about trying to learn to communicate using Chinese yet. Once I get to China, I'll get a lot of that kind of practice every day. Right now I'm focusing on learning vocab, sentence patterns and improving my speaking flow and accent.

---

I spend hours every day on learning Chinese. I revise hundreds of words and add maybe 20 new ones a day (I'm at about 1300 now) as I go through one Cpod lesson each day. This method has been working really well for me. Believe me, I'm very focused on learning Chinese. I do not, however, have the same learning style as you, which is why I'm not interested in communicating with Chinese on these boards.

I have nothing against others doing it, of course. I just wanted to write this to show you that not being interested in reading or writing Chinese on these forums does not equal not being very focused on learning Chinese.

I'm hoping this post comes across as informing rather than complaining.

zhenlijiang,

I said in an earlier post that I don't want to be counted as a failure, but moreover I don't want to be counted as a turncoat to the community.

Maybe I do lack patience.

Maybe I do crave acceptance too much.

Maybe I do take things too hard.

I'd like to see everyone else, at least the people who frequently visit here as passionate about learning as I am, but like you said, everyone learns in their own way.  At very least, people keep coming back here and putting one foot in front of the other to make forward motion with their Chinese. That's a good thing for sure.

I just took a look around at some of the other posts and Anthony_C has made absolutely amazing progress with his Chinese!  I was shocked and impressed!  Kudos to C-Pod for that one.

You spoke about our personal projects, I began a project about a year ago, I still need to finish my accent reduction group.  There are so many things I want to do that it seems unfortunately I don't have time for.  I really want to make a valuable contribution to the C-Pod community.  I need to go back and finish those earlier projects, and maybe in some way make a permanent positive contribution here.

Thanks, what you said was really helpful.

:)

Hi zhenlijiang

你的“人肉搜索技术”很了不起，佩服佩服。求你一件事，千万不要找到我以前发过的垃圾帖子，哈哈。

Xiaohu,

I found your post ChinesePod members can't read Chinese, zhen ke lian! from 2007.
This comment you made in it is an example of what I think is one of the reasons you seem to have difficulty "feeling understood":

... When people don't think the way you do, it is a bit disconcerting. I had hoped more users of Chinese pod had a stronger interest in learning the Characters. To me, why would one want to learn a language and then be functionally illiterate in it? It doesn't make any sense. Like my private tutor always said, "Learning to speak a language is already hard enough, why not just put in a little extra effort to strive for the perfect?" In this case he was referring to perfecting ones pronunciation, but I think it applies in this case as well. I never forgot what he said, and I promised to carry the torch to promote "the perfect", so I challenged myself in speaking to sound exactly like a Chinese. To structure my sentences just like the Chinese, and in 口语，to say things in informal situations just like the Chinese people would. (to have a good command of both spoken and written Chinese) To me, reading and writing are the MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL! Language is made up both auditory and visual components (oral and written), and to only focus on the oral, without any emphasis on the written, or visual aspect of language, I've found can actually hinder one's development in the oral side! I guess in my own boorish way I was hoping to help some people on their journey in Chinese. Every person on this site is here because, in some way they're interested in the Chinese language. I want people to see how great it feels to pick up a Chinese newspaper and be able to read it! To go on the Advanced forums and post in Chinese, to exchange e-mails with Chinese people and actually read through them as effortlessly as you would English (or your own natively language), I honestly don't mean to come across as a mister know it all, and I honestly wasn't trying to ridicule people for their lack of understanding of the Chinese written language. Trust me I know everyone here has a different goal in mind with their language studies. Bottom line is, I would love it if by virtue of my example just one person out there would also learn to strive for the perfect.

Even after having read the background you gave and knowing what you mean by "striving for the perfect", this last sentence still strikes me as off-putting. Seems to me to be ... bad word choice? Bad communication? Something like that. Can you see that (if you set aside your intentions and just look at what's written there)?

I didn't come back up here to be mean.
I wanted to say--do you ever consider that most of us who can be counted as "most frequent posters" here have at least once but probably more than once, shared some personal interest of ours or some project, started a group, post or discussion in the hopes that others will also find it interesting and helpful, then saw it generate no interest or response? That has happened to almost all of us (the most active Community members), with the exception of Changye because he doesn't start his own posts right, Changye?

Of course when that happens we are disappointed, maybe feel that the others are missing out on something that is so interesting and relevant to our learning Chinese, etc. But I've never seen anyone wail and rant about the lack of interest. I've seen people maybe who began to feel a sense of futility later on, comment along the lines that "judging from the lack of feedback, it seems that these efforts of mine are not greatly appreciated". Even with such successful contributions as Goulnik's News, Henning's Grammar Points. Maybe Tal feels that way now about his transcripts. We're all human; of course we seek and appreciate feedback, would like to hear that our work is helping others, is being enjoyed by others, like to know that our efforts matter.

However I don't think any of us take it personally or turn on the Community when our initiatives are not as popularly received as we had hoped. There are heaps of carcasses of such projects started in hope in the archives; I don't think they've become zombies or ghosts.

We just keep trying. We understand that others just may not feel the same way we do about our interests. Maybe you're a bit too impatient, or just too ready to feel rejected.

小虎先生

我的意思是用英文讲到任何话题都没用。

看上去你越来越不像话，已经到了这个地步了。你真的这么想吗？你看了rjberki的文章没有？在你眼里，好像我们都是懒得用中文写帖子，老爱说废话，没有上进心，而且很容易被“带有挑衅性的话题”勾引的懒骨头。看了你的帖子，我不禁觉得你有意无意中把我们都当傻瓜。年轻人，让我告诉你。一般来说，人没有自己想像的那么聪明，同时，其实很多人没有你想像的那么笨。允许我再问一次，“种族歧视”真的是有些朋友离开你的惟一原因吗？不瞒你说，我有点怀疑。

aiqingpingshen

好吧。你好好休息啊！我等着你的消息！

;)

Sebire，

不好意思，我刚注意到你提供的WIKI链接，我先要看看那篇文章。

我这边是深夜了，我现在还是先睡觉吧。周末再来详细说这个。

Sebire，

我没有听过这个人的任何消息，我很好奇。我先搜索一下他的资讯再留下我的意见。

我在哪儿可以找到他的消息呢？

aiqingpingshen

我没有看过她哭泣的那部分。我很想更了解中国人对这件事的看法，你可不可以详解的说一下给我听？

我啊！觉得娄婧却没有遭受任何严重的歧视，并且看来大多数中国人很支持她的。

你觉得呢？ 

在tal的视频中看到的东西，那个女孩最后哭了，我很难过。

bababardwan

你没有胡说，我才是胡说的呗！我以后想要胡说的话，我也一定要用中文来胡说呀！咱们一起加油！

aiqingpingshen

你是说中国人不应该骄傲什么具体情况？

It's really not something that we chinese should proud of.

tvan

我是说中国和外国的。其实无论是中国的宗教，政治和娱乐还是外国的都不重要，我的意思是用英文讲到任何话题都没用。我不是用中文回复你上一次的留言吗？我觉得你的那个留言写得非常好啊！你为什么没有用中文回答我？你应该相信自己啊！

@xiaohu,

"What I was referring to in my post was that I came into Chinesepod with all the expectations in the world that we were going to be a tight community of learners all dedicated to helping one another excel in Chinese, as was indicated in the site's mission statement."

A noble thought, but a bit idealistic seems to me.

"So the best way to use Chinesepod seems to be just to listen to the pod-casts and use the expansion materials and to bow out of the community."

Pretty well it unless you mind the occasional battle.

@bodawei

"It does highlight for me how important it is to try and grasp the culture while enjoying the heady delights of the language.  Most of us here have got a long way to go! (I include myself in that.)

May be a surprise to you that many learners of languages do not find it necessary to delve deep into the respective ethnic cultures when learning a language. Chinese immigrants abroad for one are quite happy just to learn how to speak and write English or French without being further burdened with understanding origins, cultures and customs. Obviously, this approach doesn't agree with your personal perspective staying there in China (hmmm.. the Ali G Syndrome?) although one would wonder whether the deep love for the culture has actually translated into having real Chinese friends to socialize with, after seeing your 100 rambling-on postings here at Cpod, 3rd ranking for the month, with two weeks more to close November. 

你们听说过李敦白（Sidney Rittenberg)? 他是唯一个美国人that was a CCP member. Talk about embracing a country!

xiaohu,

我明白。我看到你的看法。不好意思我的分心。我们一起加油吧。【我应该没有胡说。。我试试。。。或者如果我想胡说我就一点胡说在中文】

@xiaohu,

I would spend hours posting on people's message strings about various, often non-Chinese related topics, like religion, politics, entertainment etc.

They don't have religion, politics, and entertainment in China?  Or were you talking about the Western variety?

zhenlijiang

You're absolutely right about that everyone here is responsible for their own time management and that I don't have to communicate with people who aren't willing to communicate back in Chinese.

What I was referring to in my post was that I came into Chinesepod with all the expectations in the world that we were going to be a tight community of learners all dedicated to helping one another excel in Chinese, as was indicated in the site's mission statement.

Gradually I sort of fell into using only English because it was convenient and would get a response back.  I would spend hours posting on people's message strings about various, often non-Chinese related topics, like religion, politics, entertainment etc.

Gradually I abandoned valuable study time.

Gradually I began to dedicate all my time to posting my viewpoints about various topics.

My fault, not anybody else's but my own.

I seemed to be most attracted to posting on inflammatory, politically or emotionally charged message strings such as this one which seem to exist for the sole purpose of eliciting fiery responses.

These kinds of strings are the most detrimental to the learning process, they drag us away from learning.

Somehow these types of posts have an amazing pull to them, it's like the slow-down-and-look syndrome, it takes an amount of disciple not to get sucked in.

It's hard not to get sucked in when someone is crying racism.

When I tried to encourage people to use Chinese as possible, I'd always get SOMEBODY usually multiple some-body's who would post an angry response back, something to the effect of, "Xiaohu, not EVERYBODY here is at your level, how dare you talk down to us or try to tell us what to do", when I was only trying to get everyone interested in using this place as a study tool.

So I'd just try and post only in Chinese, which almost never got any response back, even on upper-intermediate and advanced level forums.  So, slowly I came to the conclusion that the forums are useless as a learning tool, although they don't have to be.  They have the potential to be the most valuable asset of the site, a better learning tool than any podcast, Skype call in Chinese, or any other learning modality other than a live one-on-one tutor, because it's organic, immediate and yoking the strength of many, if we all would just use it for the same purpose.  The problem is that almost nobody does, and I have the feeling they never will. 

That fact seems to stick like a thorn in my side, and every time I bring it up I just end up sounding like an angry loser and losing face in the C-Pod community.

So the best way to use Chinesepod seems to be just to listen to the pod-casts and use the expansion materials and to bow out of the community.

Sorry this is so long-winded, I always start out determined to keep it short and in the end writing a novel.  It seems another of my 缺点 is my propensity to 滔滔不绝.

i'm not sure, but he had a few weida faces see him off to the ether.

bloody cold ere t'day mate, walked me bike!

he may have died of old age,which will make the mortality rate look a little better i spose.at least he got a good send off.

I assume you are talking about Chengdu - did he die of the cold or the damp?  

neither was I, all the ticket holders had stony faces! i bet the chick i spotted having a joke wither her mate will be doing her best to explain that joke tomorrow to those that may not have got the puchline

I didn't know that, but I know people who have been required to write a good criticism (of themselves of course.)  I'm thinking of introducing it as a regular segment in my teaching.  It will give me time to read, or listen to ChinesePod, while they're writing their criticisms.  

I dunno about the weida de ren, but my name is dawei de da, weida de wei.  And I wasn't offered a ticket.  

bodawei,

correct me if i'm wrong, and not right, or left, but i think the term is used to label anyone who deserves a good criticism.

someone died recently, apparently a 'famous weida de person', according to gf's sister. all the gang were there to commemorate, including ring-ins who may have been lucky enough to get a ticket. anyway, anyone know who the bloke is? and why he is so weida?

when my gf becomes my wife, and when she becomes an australian citizen, will it be difficult for our kids to get an australian hukou?

Rj :-) Hope you enjoyed your time in Cn!

Two days before the snow we luckily invested in a heater where you put in a gass bottle (great planning on our side). My husband just told me there is a gas shortage in his plant (i.e. less production) bc of the snow in Bj.  All the gas is diverted to the capital: a powerlful government indeed!

Hi Chanelle,

Yes, never a dull moment.

Re your aside - It has also snowed in Beijing twice in the last couple of weeks. The interesting thing was that the Chinese govt took credit for making it snow, just as they averted the rain storm during the 60 year celebration (allegedly). A govt that can control even the weather is a powerful govt indeed.

bodawei

I have been in a local party office.  Not very glamorous.  Just an office.  I only had enough time to get asked the typical foreigner questions.  Haha.

Bababardwan

谢谢你的鼓励！

@xiaophil

The story of the man who wanted to reform the Communist Youth League was related to us as fact but it was also told for laughs - makes me wonder if it is an urban myth.  I walk past an office of the Communist Youth League nearly every day; I've been tempted to go in and make conversation.  I don't think they'd have me as a member.  Actually not for reasons of age - I have this sneaking suspicion that President Hu is still a member, although not of my local branch.  :-)   

Never a dull moment on Cpod :-)

For what it is worth I think the girl is very very pretty and do not think too much harm is intented when chinese use "chocolate". My experience is: everything that "stands out" is reacted and is gazed upon or stared and wondered at in a sort of naive way with no real harm intended.

Something completely else: it snows in Nanjing!

RJ 好久没见。 Not that anyone asked, but I never go to the gym. I have to work to put on any weight, and whatever I do manage to gain is quickly lost each time I knock my little brain out posting in Chinese.
这是真话！Yeah to paraphrase what you said, we each need to be on a program that suits us personally, otherwise it makes no sense.

bodawei

Your story about the pseudo-party member is quite interesting.  I'm wondering if you believe the story is reliable?

Xiaohu,

Have you been drinking? If so, please stop. If not, please have a couple. Im not sure how you became the Pope of Chinese learning, but we all worship at different altars my friend. I take special exception to your statement:

"We're not here to learn about Chinese food, Chinese culture or Chinese politics or anything else related to China, UNLESS it is through the CHINESE LANGUAGE"

Dont you mean "I", not "we" because you are certainly not speaking for me. And shouting in red caps is incredibly boorish and rude. Language influences culture and culture influences language. Im here for both.

This is not a lesson post. It is an off-topic discussion, - for that purpose. You are free to skip it, and I wish you would have. Please lighten up. Be nice. There is plenty of serious learning material to be had. If I had your skill level I would be out reading books and newspapers, not chastising lesser mortals for their weak resolve in learning Chinese. For some this is just a hobby you know, not a matter of life and death. Good luck in China, and perhaps you should buy a pair of pants that are not quite so tight. By the way, how much weight did you loose? You have to go to the gym every day you know - and no chit chat, work, work, work.

xiaophil,

佩服佩服。。I admire your courage to be "your own true self",your courage to openly and honestly examine that here,and your values in not making $ your god.Jiayou mate :)

bodawei,

and now I kind of regret that post I made right near the top of this thread, particularly if it caused you any distress.  It may have given some people encouragement to attack.  I kind of went for the jugular;

...well I can't speak for tal of course [hope you get better mate] but I certainly didn't see anything wrong with any of your posts and didn't think it encouraged anyone to attack.As always,it was good to get your opinion and point of view,and the benefit of your experience ,even if I decided it might be worth debating a couple of the finer points.I hope I didn't rub you up the wrong way mate.It was honestly all meant with the greatest of respect.Very sorry if I have unwittingly contributed to any negativity or brought the tone down.Personally I hope none of you silence yourselves,[though I do hope tal takes it easy so he can recover].Cheers :)

Tal

Despite any negativity that you have decided to recant, I am somehow glad (although not sure why) you mentioned this:

Having failed career-wise (and as individuals) in their own culture, the bright and rising Middle Kingdom offers them the chance to be reborn as 中国通.

I have often asked myself, "Am I in the midst of a pathetic process to be 'reborn'?"  I have always told myself making money is not as important as having an interesting life that I can call my own unique experience.  That said, in the back of my mind is always lurking the notion that I'm in no way shape or form suited for working in a corporate environment.  So I can't help wonder which is most true:

A) I have always focused on being 'my own true self', so therefore I haven't developed any special talents suitable for the modern corporate world.

B) Because I haven't developed any special talents suitable for the modern corporate world, I have been forced to focus on being 'my own true self'.

I hope A is true.  I have a feeling other ESL teachers here are contemplating the same thing.  I know for a fact many Chinese students are contemplating this about their ESL teachers.

I hope you feel better.  Live long and prosper!

@zhen

Ok, I'll do it if you'll do it,.. Hang up now!  No, you hang up!  I'll hang up when you hang up.  I'm hanging up.... 

...

... You hang up first, then I'll hang up.  

(hey now might be the time to try that concerted-silence-by-dominators experiment we talked about recently!)

@tal

I'm sorry to hear that you've been sick - and now I kind of regret that post I made right near the top of this thread, particularly if it caused you any distress.  It may have given some people encouragement to attack.  I kind of went for the jugular; sorry about that.  It's an emotional topic - I've been thinking about a post I made a month or two back that degenerated into slanging about racism.  I regretted my raising of the subject.  

I meant to say earlier that I have a black African in one of my classes and he fits in well.  I also have several 小数民族, and maybe a quarter of the my student population come from outside the province; so that might help here.  There is an African community at my university, but also people from other 'black skinned' Asian countries.  My feeling is that the university populations are becoming increasingly mobile and this helps people learn tolerance.  Of course, it's an enlightened environment, we hope (which was actually the principal point I made at the top - you can't tar everyone with the same brush.)    

I've been thinking that I need to silence myself too for a while - ... [fade....].   

Uh OK, just make sure we can recognize "normal Tal".

Resistance is futile, zhen. Something that China teaches you.

In all seriousness I apologize to all my true friends here for seemingly being the cause of such negativity. I have been quite ill recently and am only just starting to get back to something like normal. I will now impose silence on myself until I am.

Tal isn't that needlessly (and uncharacteristically) mean?
I wish you'd resisted, bro.

@tal

Maaaaate, lighten up! You'll upset yourself.. 

There is a long history of people 'going native' in both fact and fiction - what was Laurence of Arabia?  A bit of both?  

But here's a Chinese story: before we came here to study we had a number of briefings about culture shock etc. and one actual 'case study' was relayed to us.  A few years a young man came to China to study the language and he really settled into it, becoming quite proficient.  But friends noticed that he began to change the way he dressed, imitating the locals to an extreme degree. [Digression: I see nothing wrong with this; I like Chinese clothes, and they never last long enough for you to get sick of them.]  Anyway, he got (apparently) to the extraordinary position of joining the local Communist Youth League, or at least being able to attend the meetings.  Apparently this all came to no good, because he wrote a 'manifesto' of desirable changes to the institution. A kind of 'would-be Chinese' Martin Luther, attaching his list of demands to the door of the League's office.  We were told that plans were quickly prepared for his repatriation.   

@paulinurus

'But I could be terribly wrong' 

This is the only bit of your post that I agree with!..

:-) 

It does highlight for me how important it is to try and grasp the culture while enjoying the heady delights of the language.  Most of us here have got a long way to go! (I include myself in that.)  

Special thanks to Changye for keeping a smile on everyone's face, otherwise this thread could be described as simultaneously un-educational and seriously depressing! With Changye on the job it has become decidedly black (as in black humour before someone leaps on my case.)   

@miantiao 

I think the 黑人 is another term for illegals, people without visas?  Isn't it? Or maybe this is an expression that is now ancient history.  

If we're still talking stereotypes, I wonder if anyone else has noticed that there's a certain type of (fundamentally self-hating) white man, who becomes so drawn to another culture and who falls so out of love with his own, that he becomes in a sense ‘more French than the French', or err.. ‘more Chinese than the Chinese'? Perhaps we could call it the ‘Ali G Syndrome'.

The Gary Oldman character in True Romance is a perfect example of what I mean, and in fact I do believe that he based that performance on reality. I myself a few years ago knew a dreadlocked white ‘rasta' of just that type, a white guy who seemed to believe he was black, who had adopted the manners, speech, lifestyle etc so completely, that it was easy to forget that he had actually been raised in a Manchester suburb rather than downtown Kingston.

I'd guess it often begins with a liking for or an interest in another culture; language, food, women. Then the guy's ‘friends' begin to find him a bit of a dick, suss that there's something not quite right with this guy, maybe tease him a little too much. This just drives him further down the road though, reinforces the tendency, fuels his desire to just turn his back on ‘former friends' and embrace the new culture, the new self wholeheartedly. He'll dive into obsessive study of the loved and cherished new mental homeland, maybe take a holiday in which he discovers it's even more wonderful than he ever imagined.

With continued effort and focus on the dream, the old life begins to fade away and unwind, maybe he loses his job, the last of his real friends. That's OK though, because the internet provides new ones, online communities which allow him to swagger and show off his expertise. Here he can allow himself the monstrous conceit felt by all ‘reborn' types, he will feel qualified to criticize the speech of natives of his chosen culture, question their bona fides, jump to attack anyone or anything which he feels impugns the integrity of the new self-image. Maybe even imagine himself to be a great inspirer and teacher.

It's possible China attracts more than its fair share of Ali G Syndromers. A lot of them (with no teaching experience to speak of) will come here as teachers of English. After all, they can speak English, so teaching it must be easy, right? Having failed career-wise (and as individuals) in their own culture, the bright and rising Middle Kingdom offers them the chance to be reborn as 中国通, I've encountered more than a few of them. Sadly, already poor communicators, they make even worse teachers, and simply alienate most of the unfortunate students that pass through their hands. But hey, that's society!

Soz re length

You were joking changye? Well, there is that saying: many a true word spoken in jest.

How's that for brevity?

Tvan,

... good poddie to emulate, Chinese-wise.

别无他意，对吧！嘿嘿

I will mention for the benefit of the community that if you want to see a "White man's hacked Chinese" posting on racism, read my post.  If you wish to read a fluent posting on racism, read Xiaohu's posting.  Xiaohu was here long before I was and, along with Miantiao and Changye, has always been a good poddie to emulate, Chinese-wise.

Xiaohu, I recall the 很可怜 posting and the controversy it engendered.  I also remember that, shall we say, perhaps you also had a certain tendency to make provocative statements in your topics so as to draw comments?

关于

"那你自己遇到了什么歧视和偏见吗？比如说，你出国的时候有没有遇到了人歧视你吗？" 

我第一次结婚的时候, 我的岳父（广东人）两年拒绝看我因为我是个白人。我的岳母没怎么坏。她说我不会做太好的丈夫因为我不是潮州人，但还好我不是最坏的人... 广东人。

@changye, your English isn't good enough?  I don't know about that, but your sense of humor certainly remains as sharp as ever.

no comment, i like my head, on my shoulders, without a slanderous vilifying plank hanging from it.

dense population: about the same percentage of density as other nations.

organ transplants: it's good to share.

intense competition: competition encourages ideas

air pollution: helped in the development of cloud dispersement technology 

the gap between rich and poor: a natural phenomena, as proven by darwin.

autocratic government: says who?

human rights: human rights are in accordance with culture and history. 

Oh my goodness... how come you guys have so much free time? But then, it's your time so do what you please with it.

However, I like to say that racism (and it'll be good bet to say it exists in China as well as in Western countries, albeit perhaps in subtle back alley forms) is not a major issue as much as human rights. You've all read or seen documentaries of organ harvesting of young people as soon as they have been executed, no? A subject too hot to handle  perhaps for people living in China? 

And what is it about life in China that is so rewarding in spirit? Dense population? Intense competition? Air pollution? The rapidly increasing gap between the rich and poor? The autocratic government? 

China is a good place to make money since it's all about business. China is a good place for young white males since they are much in demand by young Chinese women. That's about it, I think. But of course I could be terribly wrong. People could find a fulfilling life in China because it is different from where they came from. 

There goes my 1/2 hour but then it's Sunday. 

barbs,

你满有耐心，性格宽容，佩服你啊！要是我的话，我就不理会。‘公牛闯入陶器店’

天啊！今天的风很大！不敢骑车。

我太想了澳洲国立电台的 raaaaage 音乐节目。

Hi xiaohu

I felt China was 100,000 times better than I ever imagined it to be

I don't know what you mean by the "better", but in any case, I envy you very much. In my case, unfortunately, China was just as I expected before, or more exactly speaking, a little worse than I ever imagined. It seems I became a bit too negative about things as I grew older, hehe.

I do Changye. I just fail all the time.

Why don't you guys try to make it short? A long-winded speech is not necessarily persuasive, while I admit my posts are always a little too short mainly due to my poor English ability, haha.

PS 在这个意义上，大家多发中文帖子好像就是个好事儿，也很有道理。写中文帖子很费劲，可以避免长篇大作！

xiaohu,

I have read through all your comments and taken them into consideration.I'd like to share my thoughts regarding some points you raise if I may.

People these days are so hypersensitive it's not even funny.  Me being a white man, if someone were to call me a "marshmallow" in reference to my skin color, it wouldn't bother me one bit.  So many people in our ultra-PC society are so quick to play the racism card

..I agree with you here,and it wouldn't worry me either.On the other hand I do believe in being sensitive to others feelings and if someone were to find something offensive then I wouldn't go there.I also agree that from what I saw they were being very nice to her on the show ,though calling her chocolate seemed a bit tactless and insensitive [but I would put that down to ignorance and not to any element of malice or intent to offend].Personally I would much rather that kind of friendliness delivered to me in a politically incorrect way than someone who was being politically correct but unfriendly [I think it is very easy to say the right thing but have no heart behind it..could even be hostile.. and to me it matters most what is in someones heart].I also agree the larger problem seemed to be the netizens,which also seemed to be the thing that most upset this young lass.I also agree with:

...there is racism, bigotry and discrimination in every corner of the globe

and

I believe in tolerance and treating everyone as equals, no matter what race or social status they belong to.  Every person should be judged by the contents of their heart and on no other basis.

I can't agree that this post is about trolling though,[and I hope the tolerance you refer to extends to those who use this site in a manner other than how you would have it].I would have thought any article related to China worth discussing for those that want to participate in the discussion.I've always been under the impression that this site is not just about learning the language but the wider topic of the culture and wider again,life in China and all things related to China.I think there is merit in discussing anything related to China at all no matter how minor the matter.We all have our different interests after all.If this one is of no interest to some then it's literally only taking up about 3 lines on the conversation page and easy to skip past.

None of us have ever walked a mile in a black person's shoes.

..agreed.Though I have been much moved reading books like "Roots" and other exposures to the topic I can't pretend that I can do more than imagine how awful it must be.

"all these self righteous white people posting in defense of this poor girl, i doubt are truly anti racism or are even angered by the issue."

His comments are so true.

...strongly disagree.How would he or you know what's in someone else's heart? So if I haven't trodden down that path I can't strongly disagree with racism?

What I FEEL is, that everyone here should at least try and use some Chinese in their communication with others in this forum.  If not, we can use English to help better understand the Chinese language, to clear up questions and further our study.

..agreed it's a good idea,according to one's ability.Though if it's rammed down people's throats they may find it hard to swallow.

misusing the groups to be a place to socialize.

..I'm hearing this message from several directions and need to take it on board.Personally I would think that language is a very social thing...it's all about communicating with others.Sure if we're going to do that then in Chinese would be more ideal for the educational value.I think much of the time many of us do try to throw in Chinese [but obviously not to your usual degree given the level discrepency],but of course in the lower 2 levels this has for a time now been discouraged [and I can understand why and respect CPod's wishes in that regard].At the higher levels there are times when I can follow what's going on but to clarify a point I'm just not going to be able to ask it clearly enough in Chinese and there is also a good chance I may still not get it if the answer is in Chinese.Also at higher levels I have been told my attempts at Chinese are very strange..lol...and that I should refrain from that...some good and well meant advice in there.So you can see there are other pressures at play and I believe in trying to respect the opinion of all,but mostly will be guided by what CPod directs.At other times it is just English banter,and I'll have to consider this more,but at the same time I would have thought that keeping the conversation going which may in turn lead to more Chinese responses is better than no conversation at all.A quiet board will not yield much.I'd rather a lush field full of weeds than a barren one.One can just put on some shoes and step over the weeds as you admire the crops.It's interesting to me that in your last post you say:

not many people want to talk about that particular topic or any other from the drop-down menu, and not many people start their own topics, nor post to others on the given topics.

..cos that's starting to sound to me somewhat like wanting to socialise [sure I know you'll say in Chinese...but many of us only have the ability to throw in some Chinese and it's still beneficial on a smaller scale].

When you use words like:

behavior

A GROUP OF PEOPLE here that are a bad influence

..I wonder if you remember that you are not the teacher in the classroom yet.I could be mistaken,but I'm under the impression that most poddies are adult or nearly so and I would think they have a mind of their own.

can feel my underlying rage

Jeepers,from all your posts this leapt out the most.Rage is a pretty strong word.Are you really feeling rage because people are socialising? Very sorry mate if I have been one of the culprits in engendering such a strong emotion in you.Personally I would have thought there were much more serious issues in this world to engender rage in someone [thinking of victims of rape,child abuse,racial discrimination,war,murder of a loved one,etc ,etc]

Guess what, self-betterment takes WORK!  Long and hard work!

..are you telling us something new here? You talk of complacency but I would say that everyone's motivations are going to be different.Sure it's great if everyone's highly motivated like you.Fantastic.But I wouldn't be looking down my nose at people that are less so.Everyone's circumstances are going to be different too.I think it's up to each customer to decide what they are going to get out of the site.

Scroll your screen up and see how many people besides me even ATTEMPTED to use Chinese

...interesting that your first post on this thread was entirely in English.But hey,I know you do virtually always post entirely in Chinese which is great.I'm just trying to say there are times when it's easier to get the point across to everyone in English.

Especially in a place where I'm not accepted

..geez,I've never had that impression at all.

You LIVE in China, and have for several years, and you still refuse to EVEN TRY to communicate with anyone here in Chinese.

..xiaohu,you're obviously an intelligent chap so I'm baffled as to how you could make such an erroneous statement.Tal posts in Chinese all the time and is one of the most helpful poddies around when it comes to helping people with their Chinese.The only possible sense I can make of that is if you're referring to this thread specifically,but then again,nor did you initially.

Why don't you look in the mirror and ask yourself, why you live in China, yet can't speak Chinese. 

..this seems pretty harsh mate.I think there are migrants all over the world who live for decades in their adopted countries without ever learning the language of their adopted country [of course many do learn and become fluent as well].It's not the approach I'd personally take and I'm not advocating it,but who knows what they've been through,what their circumstances are? Besides,in this case, "can't speak Chinese" just does not appear to be the case.A newbie who can say ni hao and be understood can speak some Chinese,it's all a matter of degree.Every extra word is another feather in your cap.I don't think you can just completely discount anyone's abilities if you think they are less than yours.

Last time I heard anything, this forum is a place where people are free to voice their own opinions.

..exactly.Freedom of speech.But some of what you say seems counter to that.

Posts about Visa's and moves to China etc. have no educational benefit to the community and are obviously only for my own personal benefit. 

I don't agree.I think there's something to be learnt here,even for someone like me who has no plans to work in China [who knows when it may come in handy,even if it's just passing on this advice to a mate].It's also a nice community aspect that we all help each other out.I do agree though that it is no more educational than this current thread [and some might want to argue that it is less so].I suppose it depends what people mean by educational.If you want to have a very narrow academic type definition then many things will potentially fall outside such a definition.

all of my posts were always friendly and helpful.

..yep,thanks again mate for help in the past.

and it negatively affects my learning process

..how so? Can't you just skip over the stuff that's not helpful to you?

I'm actually a pretty decent, nice guy.

Sure,no doubt.I'd be interested to meet you one day if you'd allow it.I hope you'll take this in the spirit of friendly debate that it's intended.You raise some interesting points even if I don't see eye to eye on every last one.Besides,I concede you may be right on some that I disagree with.Sorry if I still don't get some of your points but I have tried to listen mate,particularly to your comment about socializing.I think CPod are about to come out with some guidance on this issue and hopefully the site will work better for you and we'll see more of you.Finally,I do think that above all you are trying to inspire people and let us gain from your experience and I thank you for that.You have some good points there.I for one know that I should start to review.I've only done it briefly after I got the iphone app and have been slack after that.Also should post more in chinese as you suggest.Cheers mate.

Xiaohu, despite what people may think I am not in the habit of passing judgment on anyone's character, particularly not when I have never met them, even if I disagree with things they say here and how they communicate. I have no doubt you're a decent guy and don't know why you keep saying people see you as some kind of ogre. Sorry though, you do sometimes come across to me as somewhat overbearing.
I'm sorry I said "shrill". It was high-pitched though, that post. I've made loud posts myself; I know what they sound like.

You say you don't have a problem with anyone here personally, but
you can feel my underlying rage against A GROUP OF PEOPLE here that are a bad influence on those of us who are here to JUST learn Chinese.
sounds exactly like you have a problem with some of us personally.

I'm failing to see how anyone can be a bad influence to others here. How difficult is it to simply ignore all that you think is not worth your time on this site?

I recall that some months back I said to you, I don't see how it's CPod's fault that you have not been participating more consistently in the Community, as that was the claim you were making, that their service was failing you in that regard. This is what I mean when I say you seem to blame others. We're grownups here. We're each responsible for our own time management, our own prioritizing. If someone is just not motivated or disciplined enough to consistently do the serious work and as a result doesn't improve as quickly as he could, why should he blame the Community? Your account of your first CPod subscription year is almost embarrassing to read. How is it possibly any third party's fault that your Chinese regressed during that time?

the string titled "Poddies can't read Chinese, zhen ke lian!"
Sorry, can't seem to find it (if you ask me though, this title, if that is the point you were making in it, doesn't sound like a great keynote or initial step toward fruitful, mutually happy exchanges between inspirer and inspired--even though I may be with you on the essence of this matter).

Only after realizing I'd been engaging in a fruitless pursuit did my tone change
You don't find things to your liking here, so you choose to dispense your discontent, make sure everybody else shares it. Is this what you're saying? This to me sounds similar to how you "turned" on Japanese when you weren't met with the kind of response from Japanese people you thought you should get by learning to speak the language. 

At first I just tried to inspire the community to use Chinese to communicate, but I soon found out the community didn't want to be inspired.  Either that or I don't know the first thing about how to inspire.
You shouldn't make these gripes of yours anyone else's problem. Anyway, unless you're a teacher in charge of a class of children maybe, why presume that efforts to inspire will be welcome or needed? Being inspired happens when it happens. Our non-native-speaker teachers here inspire us. Inspiring is never pushy. Even Anthony Robbins only gets to help those who actively seek out his inspiration.

Xiaophil had a good point; we need to be using more Chinese, have a place where we don't turn to English all time. I think we do have that in AS. Of course it would be good too, if we were doing that more elsewhere, on the boards. Because banning use of English in even the higher-level lesson discussions would be exclusionary to lower-level students, perhaps a Chinese-only zone could be created (a Group or post even, I guess would be sufficient) for that.
FYI that's from a comment I made about two weeks ago, on John's post Improving the Community Section. Did you know we were discussing this?

I hate being the "star student" in what I feel is a slow class of undermotivated 同学. It's frustrating and I don't get what I need to out of it and yes I do feel it hinders my progress to be stuck there. I have had that experience. So what did I do? I didn't stay there to evangelize or berate my slow, undermotivated classmates into changing their ways or wail that that group of people were a bad influence. I figured that class wasn't for me, that I was wasting my time there, and got out. If I find that I'm surrounded by people I can't feel respect for I get out. I don't waste my time showing my contempt; I go, seeking an environment that better suits my needs.

I'm aware I am in peril of sounding like I'm suggesting you get out of here, but I am not. I am saying that maybe you're making yourself a lot more unhappy than necessary, and blaming people who are not responsible for it all.

It's obvious you've worked so hard and achieved a lot in Chinese so far. People obviously have a lot they could learn from you. You have this boundless enthusiasm for Chinese and the learning of it. So why does it seem to be making you feel rejected and misunderstood, when it should be a joy shared with others?

Can you answer that question--without blaming someone else?

Simonpettersson,

I have used the activity stream, but the problem is I found it lacking in some ways. 

One, it doesn't get used that often.

Two, it's lacking in organic user-feedback. 

Three, It's set up as a forum where we briefly post about a given topic, not many people want to talk about that particular topic or any other from the drop-down menu, and not many people start their own topics, nor post to others on the given topics.  I'm not really sure why.

Because of these factors it hasn't been as appealing an educational tool and I would have thought it to be.

Maybe I should go back and have a second look, maybe it's changed.

Changye,

My former friends are racist. Really racist. They were people I used to play video games and basketball with, but it got to the point I couldn't stand their comments anymore.  It got to the point it went way beyond jest, and good natured trash-talking and went into the territory of pure unabashed racism. 

When, I got back from my very first trip to China, I was on cloud nine because I felt China was 100,000 times better than I ever imagined it to be, and they all ganged up on me saying China and the Chinese people are despicable because they pirate intellectual property, I tried to counter that viewpoint by pointing out that, while pirating intellectual property is by no means excusible, bear in mind that every country has less than exemplary national habits, and that the government was making in-roads to change it, at which point they all ganged up on me, cursed me out, calling China a "hell-hole" and claiming I have mental problems for liking China. 

In truth, they only 大声的骂我 because they are at heart, racist.  This is the reason why they are my former friends.

Tvan,

很有道理的。你说的对，在每个国家和社会里都发生了种族歧视的现象，且把自己不了解的人单独挑出来进行批评或者仇恨和暴力的目标。我觉得我们但愿先努力忍住憎恶我们不了解的最初反应而努力先完全了解对方的话，一种被文化启迪化的社会要出现了。

对于中国“胡人”的普通认为，我遇到了很多对南方人有偏见的北方人，反过来也一样。我认识很多北方人，他们的共同认为是，福建人不好，上海人不好，南方人没有文化什么的。

其实我自己迫不及待地想要很快就被中国同化，呵呵，难道这是一种对我自己种族和国家人的反向歧视吧？可见我就是一个鸡蛋呗！

那你自己遇到了什么歧视和偏见吗？比如说，你出国的时候有没有遇到了人歧视你吗？

xiaohu: I think the Activity Stream is set up specifically to communicate in Chinese, is it not? Maybe you should use that, since it seems to be more in line with what you are looking for?

Zhenlijiang,

Well you're absolutey right.  Posts about Visa's and moves to China etc. have no educational benefit to the community and are obviously only for my own personal benefit. 

My posts that are the long and apparently "shrill" ones are only those I post when I've had enough. If you have enough patience within you to read through my above post and to go back in my history to when I first joined the site, you'll see that initially all of my posts were always friendly and helpful.  Only after realizing I'd been engaging in a fruitless pursuit did my tone change.

Pretty much every post after the string titled, "Poddies can't read Chinese, zhen ke lian!" did my attitude change.  You can go back and read it for youself and find out why.

That is IF you believe your ears won't explode from all the high pitched shrillness.

Perhaps my second post to Tal was a bit emotionally charged, but please try to understand it's because I'm growing tired of people trolling, and this is trolling at a highest level.  At first when I saw the tagline of the post I thought that, when I read through a few comments I thought that, but I wasn't sure.  When I read through the materials he was referring back to, and watched all the video footage I realized that in no uncertain terms that this message string was posted with the expicit intent of trolling, trolling that people don't even realize is trolling, and trolling is counter-educational.

At first I just tried to inspire the community to use Chinese to communicate, but I soon found out the community didn't want to be inspired.  Either that or I don't know the first thing about how to inspire.

I'm not blaming anyone specifically for my not frequent enough community visits.  What I said however is a fact. 

I don't come here because, very few (and I'm not saying ALL) seem to want to use the community to help others learn Chinese, and it negatively affects my learning process, therein lies the source of my frustration.  I don't have a problem with anyone here personally.

I'm not telling you or anyone else here how to spend your spare time, but I just feel the way this community is structured, it runs contrary to what I believe is beneficial to learning Chinese.  What so many do here in the community impedes progress.

I can't believe or accept that Ken would have ever set up this community as a way to spend our spare time socializing and not learning Chinese. In the mission statement and the marketing materials of the site, Ken stated that he wants the community to be used as a learning tool, and by acting this way we are all collectively failing him.  I don't want to be counted amongst those who fail.

When I've been vocal about my beliefs, made suggestions that the administration here should set down a precident that the upper level forums should be strictly in Chinese, and went to the lower level forums to encourage others to try and use Chinese, even John Pasden publicly denounced me. 

Yet I still don't believe I'm wrong. 

I believe if everyone here simply tried to use Chinese as much as possible, (because let's face it, this community is made up of WRITTEN messages, not verbal messages, which means that we are forced to use written Chinese to communicate and improve our spoken Chinese) then all our learning would accelerate at warp factor nine.

I'm not the only one who's tried to inspire and run headlong into a brick wall, I remember a couple years ago a girl would always post helpful things, articles that she translated into Chinese, or helpful vocabulary, and no one ever really appreciated it.  Perhaps I also never appreciated it enough, I probably should have been more encouraging, however at the time I was busilly engaged in, what I'm engaged in now, trying to use English to get my point accross.

I think virtually everyone here has misjudged me.  I'm actually not a shrill, overbearing ogre, ask the few who know me personally what I'm really like. I'm actually a pretty decent, nice guy.

Hmm, 哪里有灭火器?

中国有种族主义者？很无聊！哪个社会不受得了种族主义的影响？

看中国历史上中国一方面也有这个态度（例如叫做北边的人“胡人”），可是另一方面很多以前的胡人被中国文化所同化的。我有几个东北朋友，说实在他们是满族人，可是他们算他们现在是汉人。以前所有四川人，广东人，福建人，等都是“胡人“。现在都是汉人。这是种族族主义的吗？

可是现在很多外国人觉得被中国社会同化的是化种族灭绝的(cultural genocide?)。（例如说现代的西藏人。）但你关于他们是“胡人”或“老外”你是种族主义的。哪儿是对的？

(correction)
You are not, and no one is, in any position to tell anyone else how to spend their time.

I meant to write of course.

We all learn in our own ways Xiaohu. Please have respect for that.

Tal, I guess I'm also wishing you hadn't asked Xiaohu not to try to communicate with you any more. For any paying user to be told he's not welcome to go into any area here seems harsh ...

Hi xiaohu

Is this really the only reason you are their FORMER friend?

Also, without setting foot outside the US, they claimed China to be a "hell hole". This is why they are my FORMER friends.

Xiaohu sorry your post is just too long (haha, this is the pot calling the kettle black I know) and shrill for me to get through in entirety. I'm only making these comments off what I did catch.

I think you are overreacting now.

You're way out of line, insinuating that Tal (or any other of us) isn't doing enough hard work on his Chinese.

You are, and no one is, in any position to tell anyone else how to spend their time.

Once again, you seem to be blaming other people for your less frequent (than you would like?) appearances in the Community. I've seen you do this before.

And I feel as if I've somehow helped bring on this reaction by not remaining silent myself, and am sorry about that.

Tal

I'm terribly sorry that I simply can't respect your wishes to have no contact we me going forward because you have so obviously misunderstood and misjudged me.

I, in fact tried several times within the body of my last post to bury the hatchet and start over, you however just seem to misunderstand and focus on comments I made in opposition to your point of view as personal attacks.

Yet you have attacked me with slander based on emotions, bias and conjecture.  You haven't substantiated any of your opinions about me with any facts take from my previous posts. 

You're completely overreacting.

Let me be clear by saying upfront that the only "personal attack" I made against you was to accuse you or trolling/trogging.  You can either confirm or deny that this post is or is not sensationalism, which you have.  

I haven't changed my opinion that this post is here with the explicit purpose of eliciting strong, emotionally charged reactions, which in and of itself is the very definition of trolling.

In my second post to you, I gave you supporting evidence of why I felt the way I did, because reading through the netizen's comments, I found that predominantly, their issue was with the mother and her affair with a black man, and not personally against Lou Jing.

As exhibited in the comments below,

"I imagine her mother is also feeling helpless, bringing out and talking about such a shameful past, and ultimately [in hopes of helping] her daughter."

"There is nothing wrong with the daughter, but her mother is indeed a b***h/slut, married but still getting involved with a black person, probably for the great “love” too. Too bad the black man treated her as a toy. Chinese girls, please have a little more self-respect."

"The television channel is also shameless, using this kind of thing to hype/promote/attract attention [to itself]."

"I cannot help but say, those coming out of mixing yellow and black blood are all truly ugly, a dirty feeling [appearance]…"

So, in fact we have only one, blatantly racist comment, (the last one I posted) made only about the girl's appearance.  The party who posted it, as you can see from the body of her comment, felt uneasy about what she saw because she's had little exposure in her life to it.  To her it's different and it made her 感觉很奇怪. Why don't you look beyond the surface of what she said and understand that this girl has had little or no exposure to this kind of thing, and is just not used to it. Which is why she reacted the way she did.  She's simply explaining how the imagery makes her feel when she sees it.

This girl Lou Jing, has never been physically abused, beaten or threatened in her life.  As a matter of fact, the other girl in the show said Lou Jing is very cute!

I reiterate that Lou Jing never claims to have had a negative experience on the show, or by any member of the staff behind the show, and that all her experiences were positive.

My comments about a GROUP of people's ultra-PC attitude, the author of the article you referred us to being a member of those ultra-PC crowd, are reflected in the comments of an African American commenter's reaction to the story.

"all these self righteous white people posting in defense of this poor girl, i doubt are truly anti racism or are even angered by the issue."

His comments are so true.  None of us have ever walked a mile in a black person's shoes. Not many of us even have much, if any direct contact with their plight. We only know what we've seen or read in a few articles and movies. 

I never even once said or even implied that all posts should be only in Chinese, I'm well aware that the majority of users here are newbies and ellies and it would be way out of line to expect them to post comments in Chinese. 

What I FEEL is, that everyone here should at least try and use some Chinese in their communication with others in this forum.  If not, we can use English to help better understand the Chinese language, to clear up questions and further our study.

Your level, according to your self-introduction is Intermediate, which is the reason why I threw in a bit of Chinese, if that offends you, if you think that's condescending to you, then I'm sorry.

I do feel, as I stated above, that this place is a language learning forum and that we are here with the common goal of studying Chinese.  I feel that the Chinesepod groups often strays from it's original purpose, which is to put Chinese language learners in touch with each other for the betterment of their Chinese.  I see so many people here misusing the groups to be a place to socialize.  When I've spoken out about my feelings I've always been misunderstood, accused of being a bully and attacked. People have always claimed, quite like you did, that they're "nowhere near my level" so (just because I'm able to post in Chinese) who the hell am I to try and tell them what to do. 

People here, (you included) have misunderstood my calling out their behavior, which runs in direct opposition to the success of the group as a whole, as personal attacks.

I have never tried to attack anyone, just to make suggestions that I believe will help them achieve their goals.  I know for a 100% cold, hard FACT what at least ONE of their goals are, that is to learn Chinese.  I'm trying to make helpful suggestions based on my past experiences learning this language.  If my level exceed your own, perhaps you can learn from me instead of rejecting me.

Let's say hypothetically that I need to lose some weight, and an excellent athlete offers to help me lose weight and with that has to (out of good intentions), shock me into realizing that I NEED TO LOSE WEIGHT by telling me I'm way too fat, and for me to understand that the path I'm on, my behavior is running in contrary to me achieving the goal of losing weight.

At this point I can either, realize that what he says is the truth, accept his suggestion and let him HELP me lose weight for the betterment of my life, OR...

Get up in arms, say HOW DARE HE, reject his offer to help and continue to be fat and unhealthy to the detriment of my life.

Which situation do you think will work to my benefit?

(My hypothetical story is actually a true story, and for the record, I accepted his offer and let him help me.)

Think about it for a second, how do you think I got to my level?  Was it by wasting time socializing? Was it by pontificating (in English) about social or political issues? Perhaps you feel you were personally attacked by me because you can feel my underlying rage against A GROUP OF PEOPLE here that are a bad influence on those of us who are here to JUST learn Chinese. Those of us here with the naive hopes that everyone here is of a like mind, that they are all here for self-betterment.

Guess what, self-betterment takes WORK!  Long and hard work!  Posts like this are not working they are playing.  When people justify posts like this one in their minds by saying that it's still helping our language because it's about China, and talking about benign topics are no fun, is just sheer complacency and nothing else.

We're not here to learn about Chinese food, Chinese culture or Chinese politics or anything else related to China, UNLESS it is through the CHINESE LANGUAGE.

In truth, I have, in the past fallen into using English to socialize here and saw it negatively affecting my Chinese. When I first joined Chinesepod, I paid $240 dollars to NOT study, to NOT communicate in Chinese, to NOT use English to help me learn the Chinese language, to NOT progress and in fact to REGRESS.  When I first joined Chinesepod, it actually COST ME about a year of my time.  Which is why I want to be vocal about it and stop others from making the same mistake.

I was one of the people, about a year ago who were given a free year's subscription, which I was, in turn supposed to post often to help the community. After about a month at a time when I REALLY didn't have the money, I actually paid for a subscription rather than being obligated to come to a place where people hate me and regard me as some kind of bully or ogre.  Either that or they just reject my help, don't listen, don't participate in group study efforts and post benign chit-chat in English among themselves negatively affecting my progress.

This string and this place in general is simply just a bad influence. Scroll your screen up and see how many people besides me even ATTEMPTED to use Chinese. Three. Just three.

Which is precisely why you rarely see me here.  I don't want to waste time.  Especially in a place where I'm not accepted.  I just download the podcasts, listen to them, go through the expansion materials and that's it.  I don't have time to socialize in English.  I don't see how in the world you think you do.  For that matter I don't see how ANYONE here thinks they have that kind of time.  Time moves too fast, I've already been at this for seven years and I'm still not completely fluent yet, I don't have LIFE to waste.

You LIVE in China, and have for several years, and you still refuse to EVEN TRY to communicate with anyone here in Chinese. Why don't you look in the mirror and ask yourself, why you live in China, yet can't speak Chinese.  It's not because you're incapable, your posts clearly exhibit an absolute mastery of language, in fact, your mastery of the English language far exceeds my own.  It's simply because you refuse to go outside your comfort zone.

As for a "condescending, unpleasant, wheedling tone", you're calling the kettle black.

Your response to my first post, saying I didn't see that she suffered any racist treatment on the show itself but that I needed more information was the following,

"Well... I guess so, xiaohu. But to be honest, if I was black, I'm not sure I'd be happy to hear the word 'chocolate' used to describe me on a TV show. And that's kind of another issue I have with Chinese racism..."

I think you can dish it out, but you can't take it.  You can't take it when your own attitudes are reflected back at you.

Once again, my previous posts were nothing but my own point of view, which differs from yours.  Last time I heard anything, this forum is a place where people are free to voice their own opinions.

Please make an attempt to accept, not my point of view, but that my point of view DIFFERS from yours, and just because my point of view IS DIFFERENT than yours, that I am not attacking you. 

Also try and understand that people with differences of opinion can get along by accepting that no two people are the same.  If we were, this world would be 很无聊.

This time, please try to take my comments for what they are.  My opinions.  My personal feelings. Please try to keep from taking anything personally, and for God's sakes, let's please try and bury the hatchet.

i read somewhere that in China's recent history 黑人 was also used as a derogatory term for people who were not black, just labelled black. i don't get it, can someone enlighten me?

by the way 黄皮小子 is a term of affection i use from time to time with my gf, although, in all honesty, her skin color is probably more latte. i know that such an insensitive term will offend some of the more pc sensitive, slander and vilify self-rightious types, so feel free to 破口大骂 me at will :)

Xiaohu, if you're reading this--

Yes CPod is a language learning place. And I have heard you before as well, urging all of us to bring more educational value to the discussions whenever we speak here.

Your posts about job leads in China and securing work visas obviously generate information of interest to many here; however they have very little if any educational value in terms of culture or language (which appears to be your primary concern), especially for one like myself with no plans to seek work in China. But I don't complain about them and see no reason to.

I am really sorry Tal has asked you not to comment on his posts or try to communicate with you further. Trolling and trogging are kind of serious accusations to make of established community members here though, and I can understand why he wouldn't feel kindly about them.

PS.  I too would agree that the title of this post is on the sensationalist side btw, but the participants in the actual discussion repeatedly did remember the various forms of racism, bigotry and discrimination to be found all over the world. This was no China-bashing thread, don't you agree?

Hi xiaohu

I also think the thread title is kind of "a yellow paper headline", hehe, but actually this thread is very "educational" for me, both linguistically and culturaly. I guess most learners of Mandarin have interest in both positive and negative sides of the PRC. Just learning about, for example, Chinese food and Spring festivel is boring.

xiaohu

Frankly, I have no interest in communicating with you. I only do so now (for the final time) because you have dared to repeat your absurd and insulting charge(s) and to condescend to me yet again in that unpleasant, wheedling tone you seem to favor.

I am well aware that this is a language learning forum, and I have I feel contributed much to the language learning aspect since I first joined up here. I have received the thanks of many users for my contributions, and I think I may say I have made friends here.

I have explained to you why I made this post. It seems to me that other users have found it of interest. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you truly are offended by it, complain to CPod, perhaps they will agree with you and wish to delete it. In fact it is not your business to decide whether this post is appropriate or not, and you seem to be the only person who has 'had a problem' with it. You are certainly the only one attacking me personally in offensive and gratuitous terms.

There is no requirement that every post be made entirely in Chinese, and there are many users here who would be shut out from learning about China if such were the case. Not every user has your fluency, and not every user comes to the Community Section to engage in Chinese debate. (Perhaps you are unaware that Newbies and Ellies form by far the majority of CPod's user base, and I am sure many of them are interested in current event type stories which tell us something about China and Chinese people, and which are not written entirely in Chinese. Of course this is a language learning forum, but it is one meant to serve the needs and interests of non-Chinese learners, many of them in the early stages of learning Chinese. And I will not accept there is no place here for stories about aspects of Chinese life and society which are not solely intended as aids to language study.)

So, from now on will you kindly oblige me by respecting my wish and refrain from attempts at communication with me (in any language) and also refrain from comment on my posts, (as I will do with yours.)

@Tal,

我并不想粗鲁无礼。

I just hope you can understand my perspective, this is a language learning forum.  We are here for the purposes of learning Chinese. A sensationalistic tag-line like "Racism - The Ugly Side of 中国" and references only to the English versions of articles, in other words with no educational content attached, to me screams of trogging.

I really don't mind political debates, Calkins can attest that on many occasions I've been prone to voice my opinion very loudly about topics, but I try to keep everything within an educational context.

Remember, there is racism, bigotry and discrimination in every corner of the globe.  Here in America we have it in spades.  Even here in the city, two of my former friends were quite apt to call blacks the N-word, to call Mexicans "beaners" to call Vietnamese "gooks", to call Chinese "Chinks"， and so on, often with quite a few expletives attached.  Also, without setting foot outside the US, they claimed China to be a "hell hole". This is why they are my FORMER friends.

I believe in tolerance and treating everyone as equals, no matter what race or social status they belong to.  Every person should be judged by the contents of their heart and on no other basis.

Back to the issue at hand, in my mind, since this is Chinesepod.com, we should all come here with one goal in mind, to better our Chinese.  Perhaps if we used our 汉语 to engage in a lively debate it would have educational benefits for both sides.

Tal 哥们儿，下次咱们互相帮助，好不好？

For the record, “小白” is often used as a name for dogs here in China.

simon

Yeah, we usually don't normally refer to Mexicans as North Americans, but, well, they are.  I guess it is just habit, much like I don't hear anybody refering to French Canada as a part of Latin America, but, well, I guess people should.  French is a Latin language after all.  It seems that when people try to define North and South America, they are actually trying to define lumps of cultures.  Canadian French heritage is quite distinct from the English speaking varieties in the Americas, but it is even further from the Latin portions.  Same goes with Mexico and the USA, although that distinction is blurring in many parts.

Calkins

My wife assures me it is okay.  I am 小phil after all?  hehe.  Anyway, I still won't say 小黑.

Hi pretzellogic

Many thanks for the comment. I just hope that Mr. Obama's first visit to China, South Korea and Japan will help alleviate prejudice toward black people in these countries.

xiaophil, actually 小黑 is much worse than 黑人, at least in Taiwan.  小黑 would mean "black dog".  If you see a dog and want to say "come here", you'd put 小 in front of whatever its color is and say, ”过来小黄“ or ”过来小黑“.  Is this the same on the mainland?

Deleted

xiaophil:

In my experience, "North American" often doesn't include Mexicans, but is something used to refer to Canadians and, uh, Americans.

Ha, it's kind of funny how "Americans" is a subgroup of "North Americans". :)

Sometimes Chinese call black people 小黑.  It sounds terrible if you translate it into English.  Some Chinese people that I have talked to insist it isn't bad, though.  Since 李小龙 was super cool, I guess I believe them.

Tal

I knew a Canadian once who was a bit touchy that the term American often just refers to someone from the USA.  But I figure, what am I supposed to say?  I'm a United States of American?  Too frickin' wierd!  So I say lets say it is a contextual thing and let everyone from the Americas use it... if people really insist on it.  However, I think that it would be better for people to be a bit more specific and say 'North American' and 'South American'.

Oh my. That's never happened to me. Sounds like something you should be seeing a doctor about bro.

zhen, as is occasionally known to happen, my tongue was, if not in my cheek, at least on its way there.

That friend, if I recall correctly, acknowledged that in the UK "Asian" is usually understood to mean Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi / Sri Lankan (did I miss anyone?).

Chinese/Japanese/Korean (oops missed Mongolian) type people, she also said at the time, are usually referred to by themselves as "East Asian". Being East Asian, that means of course they are necessarily "Asian". China reaches so far west this classification is bogus though. And really, when we say Chinese in this sense we're actually thinking Han-type people ... (haha, this recurring discussion is becoming ridiculous).

And she didn't 责骂 you Tal!  And isn't now.

sebire, I have to be honest and say I never listen to the BBC Asian Network.

You may recall a recent time here when I was chided by one of our Japanese friends for using the word 'oriental' to refer to South East Asians, (as was customary in my own childhood), and was let to know that 'Asian' was the correct designation, since which time I have striven to be... err... correct. ;)

Tal, when was the last time you heard Chinese people on BBC Asian Network? Or ever heard Chinese people/South East Asian people referred to as "Asian" by the British media? It seems that the Indian subcontinent gets to monopolise an entire continent. Indeed, I refuse to call my friend Asian because it does my head in - she says I can call her "brown", heh. 

andrew,

since it reduces individuals to stereotypes.

..agree with you here ,when it is being used in that way.Your example of a coworker being referred to in that way is a good one.Surely one would get to know this person as an individual and refer to him/her by name.To continue to refer to such a person as "the black guy" would sound dismissive and exclusionary as any labelling could.But I also can't agree that:

it is inherently hateful, regardless of intent

..after all black is just an adjective for a colour a descriptive word used to aid in the identification of something.There is nothing wrong with referring to a stray cat as a black cat or a white cat or a siamese cat,but if we know the cat we'll probably refer to it by it's name [as xiaophil has pointed out in some cases it may be the quickest and most distinguishing feature amongst a group of unknown people..at other times it may be the guy in the pink shirt,or the tall guy].In fact,it could be argued that to suggest it is a hateful word is a racist thing in itself [I certainly know this is not the case with you and that this is not where you are coming from...you have pointed out about the stereotyping thing ] as it may suggest that there is a negative connotation with the word.I think it does all come down to how it is used and the feeling and intention behind it.I think it also comes down to how a group of people or more importantly the individuals themselves are happy to be referred to,and despite one's own meaning in use of a word,sensitivity and respect should be shown in this regard.

Actually,I find it hard to see how "inherently hateful" and "regarless of intent" can go together.So if your intent is love but you unwittingly choose the wrong words you are hateful? This is where I take issue with the whole politically correct thing.Sure let people know if something is offensive,but to insist on labelling such people as hateful,racist,whateverist etc when their intentions may have been entirely benevolent seems to be wrongly accusing attributing something that just isn't there.

In the UK it does.

(As for 'Americans', my personal interpetation is that it should properly refer to anyone from North or South America, but doubtless there are many who wouldn't go along with that.)

Tal:

I thought "Asian" didn't include Indians? Just like "American" doesn't include Canadians (or Mexicans or Brazilians).

Andrew_C

I think in many contexts describing someone as "black" would be offensive in English.

Hmm...I have to disagree. The keyword in your quote is "many" which does not suggest 'ALL' as was my point! For example, when questioned on forms where race is a question there is nearly always a box for "black"...Thats kind of my point....These forms are not being racist...The person creating the forms is certainly not racist and we dont use the term "African English".

Also, A man I live with at the moment is black. He considers himself black and if asked will describe himself as a "black man". To add to this how else would I possibly be able to describe that too you without using the word black....I haven't meant it in a racist way but have had to use the word....Thats my point....if i'd used the "N" word then that would have been racist but the way ive used the word "Black" in this paragraph is not.

So all in all someone is yet to convince me that a word can be racist without having hatred or predudice attached to it. Another example to look at is rappers....They use the "N" word all the time, but they are not being racist to each other...it is used to convey a different message entirely.

Feel free to shoot my arguments out of the air!

;)

Recently African people who live in Guangzhou (广州) has become a social problem here in the PRC. As far as I can see, the word "非洲人" seems to be more commonly used in newspapers than "黑人/非洲黑人" are. I guess that perhaps they try not to use 黑人 as much as possible.

In the UK it's not considered racist to use the word 'black' - you hear the phrase 'the black community' used widely and by black people themselves. Indeed it has been my understanding that it is the preferred adjective.

By the same token 'white' is OK to describe caucasians. 'Asian' I guess would be used for people from the Indian sub-continent and Chinese/Japanese type people.

I don't inherently hear racism in the word (unlike other words) unless the tone is altered to give that effect.

I have a black friend that prefers 'black' over 'African American' as he feels the latter implies a special kind of American.

I agree as well actually.
To me it's often more difficult to feel out what's OK and what isn't, when the context is the US (= more complex).

黑人 still makes me (perhaps unnecessarily) uncomfortable though. Do you guys all use the term in Chinese? If not, what do you do?

Well golly, I can't edit my comment for some reason. I wanted to add this to the bottom of what I just wrote:

I know what you mean, though.  Calling someone 'yellow' is very bad, but that is because a different entirely nagative meaning has been clearly established (in English and Chinese, actually).

PS: I have a black friend that prefers 'black' over 'African American' as he feels the latter implies a special kind of American.

Hi Andrew

I do remember a time when I was working in America and one of my coworkers was trying her best to point out a customer by describing in detail what the person was wearing.  The thing is, since he was a black man, she could've just said, 'The black man over there', but due to stigma, she felt like she couldn't say that.  I can understand why we shouldn't in general classify someone as 'different', but honestly, sometimes it is taken too far.  So I guess I'm saying, calling someone 'black' isn't taboo to me.  I guess I don't inherently hear racism in the word (unlike other words) unless the tone is altered to give that effect.

Hi zhenlijiang

African descent = 非洲后裔 (fei1zhou1hou4yi4)

I don't know how commonly this term is used in China.

zhen,

Good question.I want it:

..hehe,a tale about the strange history of the buddhist nuns[the front cover pic shows strange looking nuns indeed].I wonder how the other transliterations turn out...there'd have to be a lot as Dr Seuss made up heaps of words.Don't know how the rhyming effect would work out either.I think it would be a challenge to translate it and maintain the same flavour,but the message in this one would still be clear.

Andrew, I've wanted to know, how does one refer in Chinese to people of African descent without using the term 黑人 which I can't quite bring myself to say?
I don't think of these as "PC" issues btw. Nor "Mac" issues.

Baba, I didn't know about The Sneetches! What sort of a Dr. Seuss fan was I all these years? Wonder if that one's been translated into Chinese.
☟ 哇 that was quick! 我也要买。

I've always liked Dr Seuss's take on it in his children's tale the Sneetches [which even included the character Sylvester McMonkey McBean who had the equivalent of the skin whitening products you've mentioned above as well as the opposite (...here in Oz the opposite has been true..for many years it has been fashionable to darken the skin...so called bronzed Aussie...either naturally via sun,or via solariums,fake tans)].Even a small child could comprehend the folly of it all.

dionte,

我觉得你说的很对。有很多美国人怕黑人。这是个很大的问题。美国还差得远。

vallence,

I think in many contexts describing someone as "black" would be offensive in English.  Would you randomly refer to, for example, a coworker as "the black guy"?  In addition, I think anyone who has heard the application of the word 黑人 would know it's more than just an adjective relating to appearance.  The majority of the times I've heard this word spoken, it has been accompanied with negative stereotypes, like the ones dionte mentioned.  I would claim it is inherently hateful, regardless of intent, since it reduces individuals to stereotypes.

Changye I have no idea, but the reference to African countries reminds me, I have heard of Japanese businessmen and their families living in South Africa (under apartheid) being given the generous distinction "honorary whites". Can you imagine accepting being called that?
Maybe by now some of your acquaintances generously consider you an honorary Chinese, haha.

A while back I saw an article in an American publication, a caustic complaint written by an African-American woman observing how "brothers" definitely show preference for lighter-skinned "sisters" (this was the language she was writing in) as girlfriends ...

There is xenophobia, and many kinds of racism, all over the world.

Hi zhenlijiang

I wonder if people in African countries once colonized by Europe also have the same sentiment. Do you have any idea?

It does appear to be very deep-rooted. India also used to be ruled by Aryan kings. To me that seems more plausible a cause for such perceptions than the more recent experience under British rule.

Hi zhenlijiang

Having read the following news articles, I think Indian people's obsession with fair skin seems to be more serious than I thought before. Some say that Indians are usually obsessed with fair skin as they acquired this legacy from the British era. As our rulers were fair skinned, we also run after fair complexion. I also think the Indian authorities should control such "go too far" ads for skin-lightening cosmetics. 在印度女人的日子不好过啊！

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?title=Indian%20obsession%20with%20fair%20skin&artid=p7HXjE5jHFc=&type=

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/2009/09/11/2009-09-11_skinwhitening_commericals_raise_ire_in_india.html

Changye, what I read about India is already from several years ago. Certain ad campaigns for such cosmetics were being pulled because they blatantly depicted fairer, lighter skin as preferable, in fact aspirational (imagine that). A girl finishing her studies and entering the job market dreams of becoming a flight attendant with an international airline. Apparently her complexion is not as fair as she would like, so she uses the cream or whatever--and interviews successfully to land her dream career, something along those lines. And I think it may have involved contrast with another girl who didn't use the product and her lack of success.
India also being a diverse society, this "preference" for fairer skin is necessarily linked with all the deep-rooted issues between the ethnic groups there, the issues of inequal treatment and disparity. And I guess the authorities decided the ads had to be banned because the story being told in them was no longer considered appropriate.

Recently I read in the newspaper that skin-lightening cosmetics sell very well in India. The article says nowadays more and more Indian people, both men and women, prefer fair skin. I wonder if the same thing is happening among black people. Michael Jackson is an isolated example?

dionte

我觉得你说得很有道理。你知道，如果是我跟中国人吃饭，然后一个人开始批评我自己，就大发雷霆。不过，我的想法到底像你的一样，我也觉得无论在这个地方还是那个地方，有些人都不文明，关于这个，没办法。反正，如果你来上海的话，你就随意跟我联系吧。虽然我也是美国人，但是我也愿意跟你用中文聊天，哈哈哈。

我跟我的汉语教授一起谈论这个问题了。她说了虽然大多数中国人喜欢美国文化，有的人有时候批判美国人，特别是黑人。我的朋友也谈论这个问题。她女儿去中国餐馆了。[我不记得城市或者餐馆的名字]。反正，她想吃饭了。中国服务员开始用汉语批判她了，因为她是黑人。不过，他们没认识到她也能说汉语。我的朋友女儿用汉语批判他们。我跟我的汉语教授和朋友一起谈论偏见以后，我很怕去中国了。我没想见面那种人，因为我也是黑人。不过，我现在认识到我不应该怕去中国。很多人可能恨我。可能告诉他们朋友[他是黑人；他可能逼迫你给他你的钱]。实话告诉你，那种人也住在美国，加拿大，日本，等等。我的意思不是那种不应该被批判。你要是表达你对别人的偏见，我觉得你和孩子一样，因为你当然不了解尊敬的重要性。我的意思是，你不应该在乎那种人的意见。你为什么应该在乎孩子的意见？

Hi xiaohu

Looks like the situation is worse than I thought. You can choose neither your parents nor the color of your skin, after all.

the main issue surrounding the negative things the Netizens were saying about her were more about her mother's background and extramarital affiar, and not about the color of her skin.

This debate is very interesting and got me thinking. (It didnt hurt too much ;))

If a word is used to describe someone that does not carry malice or hatred can it be classed as racist?

Are we offended because the word used when translated literally would cause offence in our own language?

If we described someone as "black" in English, the assumption would not be that it was offensive. Yet as we know, no one is actually black as in the colour. If you described someone as yellow or brown (which would be more accurate) on the otherhand it starts to sound a little more dubious.......What i'm trying to say is...If descriptive terms are not that clear by our own standards, can we judge another culture on the use of theirs? So long as there was no hatred implied then i cant see a problem with it.

bodawei,

this colonial is half a wog, and prefers wegdes to chips, less grease mate ;)

xiaohu, if you have ever experienced racist abuse, perhaps you would be less happy about being being described as "marshmallow". Being called a "p*ki" by geographically-challenged youths whilst growing up because you look slightly different is not exactly pleasant, and disliking that fact is not ultra-PC.

xiaohu,

I thought this story was of interest because it surely tells us something about modern China and the attitudes of many Chinese people. I decided to share it here because I thought it would interest other users who like to learn about China as well as learn Chinese.

My previous post was meant partly as an acknowledgement of your thanks, partly as a personal reaction to your comment about how she was treated on the show. I have no desire to take issue with you on the (other) comments you make regarding her participation on the show, or regarding her stance on the racist abuse she received.

I am a little nonplussed by the conclusion of your last post. 我觉得太过分了。To be honest I feel the words you have used have no place here, and I certainly will not accept that you apply them to me. I am not "trying to make a stand against racism" in any case.

As far as I recall we have had no prior contact on these boards, 对吧? Perhaps we should return to such a state of affairs. Actually I have always admired your fluency in Chinese, it far outstrips mine, (I'll admit that right away to save you the trouble of trying to engage me in adversarial 中文.)

I have lived and worked in China for several years now, and naturally I have views and feelings relating to China and the Chinese. I believe it should be acceptable to express personal views (even if not always fawningly positive) and hear the views and feelings of other foreigners and/or native Chinese without being 'put on the spot' in the way you seem to be trying to do with me.

@kimiik

Sorry mate, I must be guilty of a lack of sense of humour.

I've been super-sensitive to your comments.  You should know that us colonials have big chips on our shoulders.  :-)  

Tal,

So what if they said 巧克力?  Why is that so hurtful or racist?  They're making an innocent comment about her 外观. Honestly, you're taking PC to not only the Nth degree but the Zth degree.  People these days are so hypersensitive it's not even funny.  Me being a white man, if someone were to call me a "marshmallow" in reference to my skin color, it wouldn't bother me one bit.  So many people in our ultra-PC society are so quick to play the racism card,. If there were real racism going on here, she would never have been on the show to begin with, let alone highlighted the way she was. 

She made it to the top 30 contestants by the way.

In addition, she herself felt she didn't make the top 12 because she simply didn't deserve to be there, as illustrated in the following statement, "I think top 12 competition was becoming increasingly fast paced, that is the time to prepare was two days, then later only one day. In fact, I do not have a strong background in singing and dancing, so this kind of competition was more tiring for me, and also the audiences did not have very good visual sense. So I expected to be eliminated." 

A couple of quotes from the article you referred to,

Loujing says, (of the environment in the competition) "During the course, directors and staffs were particularly good to me."

and, (referring to the post someone else put up using her name) "I think there wasn’t any racial discrimination, until he wrote the article and caused it."

as well as, "I want to say the inaccurate information misled the netizens. "

The only racist issue she makes reference to is in the following statement, (in reference to her dream of becoming a television host) "the netizens think I do not meet the aesthetic needs of the Chinese public. And being a host is the most direct way to present images to the public. It is possible some people will like me and some people don’t, for those who do not like me, I need to spend more effort than other hosts to gain their recognition"

Besides that, the main issue surrounding the negative things the Netizens were saying about her were more about her mother's background and extramarital affiar, and not about the color of her skin.

So, in fact this very post not so much about making a stand against racism as it is a kind of Trolling/Trogging post, 对吧? 

Tal 哥们儿, 你别闹了个轰动，好吗？ 没有事就不要自找事，好不好？

...her treatment in front of the camera looked positive.

Well... I guess so, xiaohu. But to be honest, if I was black, I'm not sure I'd be happy to hear the word 'chocolate' used to describe me on a TV show. And that's kind of another issue I have with Chinese racism, that it's so common an attitude, the underlying feelings so generally shared, that I'd guess most of the people doing it have no inkling that it is in fact racism. The NPR piece says (referring to the Chinese netizens' reaction): "many people didn't even realize their comments were discriminatory or hurtful".

For further reading I've come across an interview with Lou Jing on China Hush, and this report about a Shanghai girl who gave birth to a black baby is also relevant perhaps.

Tal,

Thanks for bringing that to our attention. At very least, her treatment in front of the camera looked positive.

Everyone seemed supportive and excited about her rap and her performance. It's interesting because I'd always thought that a foreign "sound" comes from referring back to one's native tongue so the register of your voice reflects how it developed through producing the sounds of one's native language. Perhaps I was wrong. Loujing was born and raised in Shanghai, and while her Mandarin is perfect, she still sounds a bit like an African American speaking Chinese, strange.

I'll have to do more research about this girl's experience, but at first glance it looks like her mistreatment was just from the backlash of internet users following her performance and not from the people participating on the show itself.

about the only culture in the world that i can truly state i understand without any hesitation,is yoghurt. i'm no particular about any flavor, although strawberry is more palatable than plain,mmm, yummo!

@Bodawei, Didn't you see a Smiley [;o)] at the end of my post ?

For you, what would be the date of birth of North American culture ? ;o)

It's interesting, that Lou Jing alluded to a happy, innocent childhood.  This New York Times article mentions that biracial kids in Korea do not seem to have that luxury.

There are many ways to explain what happened for Lou Jing if she had a chance to be happy in a country where very few people look like her. Not sure what things would be like for Lou Jing in other Asian countries.

@kimiik

Mate, you've lost track - this is what you said in your post above:  

It's more the "Aboriginal Australians culture" than the Australian culture that goes back 40,000 years.

What I found remarkable about this girl's story:

When I was younger, I thought life was beautiful. Why is it that now I've grown up, I don't think that anymore?" she says.

from the NPR article.

Many children grow up not having that. She may not know her father, but despite all the prejudice and ignorance we might imagine Lou Jing would have faced, her mother and other people obviously raised her to feel that life is beautiful. I'm sure she'll appreciate this later on, understand she's a lucky girl and feel gratitude for the people who let her feel that way as a child. A happy childhood--given that means sheltering on many levels from reality, given that there will be many dreams shattered, many rude surprises, many ugly truths out there that will have to be learned sooner or later--can give one much strength and support later in life. That's something no one can ever take away from her.

Bodawei, The argument wasn't about segregation but about the strange tendency to date the origin of a culture.

I understand the concept of 'national culture' but not the search for the date of birth of a 'national culture'.

bodawei,

Thanks mate.

When talking about culture this is inevitable - the word is defined by an average tendency in thinking, feeling and acting

agreed.But I think there is an inherent danger in this.[People do tend to do this all the time and I'm not having a go at you mate...it's plain you have an admirable world view and are also very anti-racist].So sorry to belabour the point,but I think this lumping of everyone in the same boat is,along with ignorance,another factor that leads to prejudice.People decide the average so and so is like this and then certain assumptions are made about all people that fall in this group.And while I don't know enough about Chinese culture to debate with you on the points you make,talking about the world in general I would say that so often these cultural stereotypes and cultural observations or other observations are not true averages.Case in point...the Sudanese example you have given.People might read an article about Sudanese being killed in Australia and this great tragedy gets a lot of media attention and is thus magnified in peoples minds so that it gets greatly extrapolated as if it is some kind of average.To my knowledge this was a rare and isolated event [I concede I may not be completely up to speed here but I'm confident it is not approaching any sort of average].Then we all get tainted with the same brush.I'll none of it.I don't buy into people seeing racist Australians and then branding us all racist and same goes for other societies.I think there are bad elements in all societies as well as plenty of good.I believe in taking each person as they come.Presume the best in 'em and not brand them with the misdemeanours of others.Anyhow,sorry to ramble on,but I suppose it's something I feel strongly about.Love to all.wan an.

[offtopic] Changye: Maybe they meant "神经医" (nerve doctor).

...

I don't know why I said that. [/offtopic]

I saw a Chinese TV drama series featuring international marriage between an African man and a Chinese woman several years ago. The heroine, a doctor of acupuncture, cures blindness in Africa, and local African people call her "神医" (a divine doctor). I WAS VERY MOVED !

@barbs

Sorry, it looks like I ignored your post but in fact I did not see it until after I posted!  I was actually referring in particular to the attacks suffered by black Africans (eg. Sudanese) in recent times in Australia.  I was not originally referring to the aborigines, so I agree that we cannot be held responsible for past generations.  We can however feel sorry.  :-)  

Your points about generalisations are well taken.  When talking about culture this is inevitable - the word is defined by an average tendency in thinking, feeling and acting.  If you start talking about individuals you are no longer talking about culture (it is a group or social concept.)  Sure, none of my friends are racists.  Well, actually since Facebook was invented I probably can't even say that.  Actually, as someone said above, racism is in our (inherited) humanity as much as learned behaviour - it is a defence mechanism.  We'll have it bred out of us in a millennium or so. I will agree that Australians as a group display remarkably few racist tendencies, and our anti-discrimination legislation is impressive. We still, to the present day, preside over a shocking systematic discrimination against aboriginal people. That is also learned behaviour that will take many many years to change.      

@tal

I did appreciate the next edition of Tal's True Stories - of course I did.  Look I have encountered this kind of thing myself, including the black must be dirty stuff. Sadly such views are still expressed by the relatively young.  Actually I thought your story was going to veer into expressed views of people in the next province.  That is the intolerance in China that I find most difficult to cope with - that is the one that actually impacts harshly on people's lives. I'm still learning about nation-building with Chinese characteristics.     

@miantiao

I've had the undoubted pleasure of living in a few places around Australia and nowhere is the populace more tolerant than in the shady avenues of Toorak and Mosman.  A better society is more challenging in Alice Springs where it is still difficult for black people to find housing in town.  Anyway, you are right, we are free to talk about it in Australia.  I don't think I am making excuses for Chinese racism, I am just not getting outraged.  Particularly about a cute young Shanghai girl who goes on Idol - I'll save my public passion for other outrages.  Deeply held values are not changed quickly.   

@kimlik

Hey, in Australia we're all brudders, right mate?  'Is aboriginal culture actually Australian culture?' you ask.  The aboriginal people might be offended as they probably have as much right of ownership to the term 'Australian culture' as anyone, don't you think?  Your question is loaded with a Western perspective, fine as long as we see where you are coming from.  A more appropriate question might be: To what extent have the aborigines taken on the symbols, heroes and values of more recent immigrants?  Or, to what extent have more recent immigrants appropriated Australian culture?  Or is 'national culture' a valid concept?  Is it measurable?       

I'm sort of wondering wether she was accepted into the contest because of her mixed heritage, so that it could be exploited for publicity. It seems that talking about it on TV was well prepared by the announcers.

The reason I suspect ulterior motives by the show's producers is because the poor girl obviously can't sing worth crap.

bodawei,

I agree with your point about ignorance often being a factor.

I also agree with:

I don't feel that I can throw stones at the Chinese.

...but I think for different reasons to you. Firstly I don't believe in throwing stones at anybody[after all somebody might get hurt..what's the saying now...sticks n stones will break my bones but names will put me in therapy for the next 20 years].I think it's better if people are enlightened.Secondly I don't believe that because a certain element of society has acted a certain way that one can presume all are that way [in other words why apply the comment to the whole Chinese race?].The same applies to your comments about Australia.How can one possibly be held accountable for sins of the ancestors? Agreed there is a shameful record,one that should be reflected on and learnt from.Same with the current situation.Just because there have been some very public displays of racism,[seemingly particularly prominent in Sydney in recent times] I don't think one can extrapolate and imply that Australians in general are racist because I think in fact the opposite is true,that most are appalled by such behaviour.I also don't believe in the argument that goes along the lines of...I can give you a much worse example,thus don't think too much of this lesser case.I think all forms of racism are unacceptable regardless of the degree.Giving a worse example doesn't make the lesser one more palatable.I really felt for the poor girl in this article.You can just imagine the state of her emotions on entering such a contest...her excitement,her dreams,her benevolence and most of all her innocence.She looks so young.I have watched Australian Idol with my kids and just cringed at the crass and disrespectful way some of the contestants are spoken to,particularly the young innocent girls.I find that quite distasteful and this was without racism being involved.So yeah,I can just imagine this poor girls world come crashing down around her.I think more sensitivity should be displayed to these kids.

ps I loved your tale about your daughters pink hair.I think it's a delightful story but I'm not sure how you and your daughter took it. :)

miantiao,

changye,

your dogged pursuit

..hehe,nice choice of words mate. :)

tal,

I doubt that one syllable I spoke made the slightest difference to his world view

..maybe not now,but at least he has now heard an alternative viewpoint and hopefully you've planted a seed in his mind and his mates that may grow later.A beautiful anecdote exemplifying ignorance as a root cause here.Some long held beliefs and attitudes seem to take some time to shake but I think change can occur over time [heck,I'm starting to sound more n more like Chauncey...jeepers creepers]

changye,

your dogged pursuit in voicing the proverbial distasteful is admirable, and i always get a kick out of your pokings.

however, i have a sneaky(sic) suspicion that the present speed of the buggering (err, liberating)  of africa in the oil for arms and highways business will only be accelerated by such viewpoints. the progressive enlightened magnificents that propagate them should be very proud of themselves for doing an outstanding job of it.

bodawei, excuse? I would have thought the majority of australians recognise their past and have had the freedom of speech to allow them to face facts and try to move on from there to build a better society. i wouldn't have thought we need excuses because excuses are used as justification. 

巧克力城  接特中心

Chinese prejudice toward Africans is not necessarily a bad thing. It can cause some trouble between African countries and China, and consequently slow the speed of "colonization" of Africa by the PRC, hehe.

OMG ! 接特中心 !

Hi Bodawei,

It's more the "Aboriginal Australians culture" than the Australian culture that goes back 40,000 years.

For you, does "North American culture" goes back 60,000 years ? ;o)

As a matter of fact bodawei, I do consider the treatment that has been meted out to native Australians (ever since colonisation by Europeans began) to be unspeakably shameful.

Your subtext seems to be however that this is no surprise, and I do fully agree with you there. Our species seems to be by nature xenophobic, tribal, hostile to 'the other'. A hangover from our primate ancestors no doubt, from the days when such traits made the difference between life and death. Sadly I somehow feel that in the final end it will lead to our collective undoing.

Oh yes, Chinese racism though. Would you like to hear another of Tal's True Stories? Of course you would.

I came to China in 2004 to teach English to medical students in Guangdong. The great majority of the young people I teach come from Guangdong; places like Dongguan, Meizhou, Shantou, very few from Guangzhou and even fewer from other provinces. Many of them grew up in rural areas and I am the first foreigner they ever get the chance to see. I would guess they are a fair representation of what I call 'the real China', which is not glitzy cities like Shanghai, but the backward provinces where people grow up in fear of sickness and debt, in the shadow of poverty and with the ever-present cold realisation that the world is changing around them and they don't have much control over it.

Anyway in my first year I was given a textbook to use with them in which there was a chapter about Pocohontas and native Americans, and a poetic description (I thought) of how the first Americans would have been Asians who crossed the land bridge between Siberia and Alaska so many thousands of years ago. It made me wonder if Chinese people felt any sense of 'kinship' to native Americans, if they were stirred by any sense of their ancestors moving across the world in that ancient, unknowable time.

As so often though, they weren't.
"We've heard this before," they'd tell me with nonchalant, bored expressions. "It's nothing new to us."

Anyway I decided to give them a writing exercise based on the content. I compiled a short list of points they should/could respond to in what they wrote. A couple of the questions went something like: Would you like to make friends with native Americans? Are you interested in their culture?

Most of the answers were the usual ho-hum kind of thing, students saying what they think you want to hear. One boy stunned me though. He wrote something like: "I feel no interest in learning about primitive peoples' culture because I am only interested in our China. Chinese people are friendly though, and I am willing to make friends with any people, except black people."

I was appalled.

Next time I saw that class I spoke to him in front of all his friends.
"What do you mean by writing this in your essay?" I asked. "Why would you not want to make friends with black people?"

A hush fell on the group around him, eyes switching back and forth between him and me. Long moments passed before he answered.
"Well... I don't like black people," he said.
"Why? Have you ever met a black person?"
"No."
"So what possible reason can you have for saying such a thing?"
"Well... they look dirty to me. They look black and ugly."

I patiently tried to explain what of course he must already have known, that black people are black because of the pigment in their skin and not because of dirt, and that all humans everywhere are very closely related as revealed by studies of DNA and so on, but he and his friends simply listened with a bored look and were clearly relieved when I finally let it go. I doubt that one syllable I spoke made the slightest difference to his world view, one that any foreigner will encounter everywhere that Chinese people are to be found.

I read the Guardian story - I don't know, I can't get excited by it because I find the tone so superior.  But I like the bit about Chinese history 'implausibly' going back 5,000 years.  I had a student recently recite the script to me as evidence that Chinese culture is superior to Australian culture (a familiar theme until I have a go at educating them).  '5,000 years, really?' I said.  'Australian culture goes back 40,000 years'.      

This is interesting. I remember seeing this girl on TV last month. I didn't realize there was that much more to the story.

I'm afraid I am not 'outraged' like you guys (as in 'God, they are so uncivilized'), perhaps because I come from a country where racism also runs deep, and I grew up in a country (not Australia) where racism was kind of extreme compared to this.   

We are being outraged about the opinions of people who watch Idol and get excited about celebrities? What do you expect?  This is no worse than you would get in Australia - we have had a surge in race crimes in multicultural Australia with black people beaten to death. Black people here in China, while a curiosity, do not have to put up with the treatment that they would have received just a couple of decades ago in either Australia or the United States.   People here are ignorant because they simply have limited life experience, in a very much mono-cultural society.  My daughter dies her hair pink - countless Chinese people ask her (seriously) if she was born with it that colour.  In Australia we do not even have the excuse of being mono-cultural.  

I had left high school before black people in my own country were counted in the National Census. I don't feel that I can throw stones at the Chinese.  Well I can, but only because 'they' probably also get Jerry Springer on DVD.  

So, please feel free to be outraged about white Australians too while you are at it?   

@Changye

Did you see that Barrack Obama has a half brother who is married to a Chinese woman and lives in Shenzhen? Honestly, that guy has contacts everywhere!    

In the Guardian, it's said that the black district of Guangzhou is called "Chocolate city" and according to Google the chinese word used for "Chocolate city" in Guangzhou is always 巧克力城.

But, the cantonese word for chocolate is 朱古力 not 巧克力 and 巧克力 only works in Putonghua as a transliteration of "chocolate".

Do Guangzhou people really use the word 巧克力城 or is it made-up by the press ?

.... Correction ...

In traditional characters, I also found an article about 廣州“朱姑力城”.

Wow, I just read all three of the articles.  How sad.  What a bunch of a-holes some (most) of those commenters are.  I wish I could be more diplomatic, but actually the words I want to say are much stronger.

Yay HARMONIOUS society!

I'm afraid Mr.Obama might be "bullied" in the PRC next week, both politically and racially.

Oh, there's also a great piece on the Time website here, and it contains a link to footage hosted on Youku, (which is viewable in China).

Fascinating article in the Guardian here.