Do the Chinesepod lessons have a western attitude?

I just happened to notice this post out of the corner of my eye while looking at Mark's current post. I must say it strikes a chord with me. Every time I open up my Mandarin kouyu textbooks, I wonder to myself, why does it seem that Chinesepod dialogs are completely different than the dialogs in my my textbooks? I'm not just talking about content. I'm talking about style. I can't help wonder if one or the other is more authentic? I can't help wonder if we had a group of typical Chinese people looking at both a selection of Peking University dialogs and CPod dialogs, which one would they generally think would sound more natural in a real life conversation, stylistically speaking of course?

Quoting kitty: "East is East and West is West". This viewpoint just doesn't have much foundation aside from misguided pride. Cultural exchange and borrowing has occured from the dawn of civilization. Where do you think the West got silk, the printing press, paper, gun powder, and the compass from? Where do you think China got Buddhism, opium, industrialization, and Communism from? You revere Mao, but his ideas stemmed from Marxism, developed in Europe.

But even within the so-called "East" is there really just one 'pure' culture that we all share? Even within China it's not the case! Southerners prefer rice, northerners prefer noodles and mantou. The Uighurs are Muslim, in Yunnan minorities are ethnically Thai...we don't even all speak the same dialects within the same province!

And in China, the "West" used to mean Xinjiang. The "Far West" was probably considered India. In Europe, the "East" was considered the Arab nations. East has never been simply East, and West has never been simply West.

tonyc, You misunderstand, I wasn't referring to you but to Kitty... I was hoping she would be objective and detached. I was apologizing to you for the continuation of this exchange which you were so kindly trying to take back to the discussion of Chinese Language.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

What happened when they heard a foreigner?

billybobjoebobwilly, if you reflect further on all my postings I think you will find I was trying to be objective. Nice try but I'm not taking the bait! Nice chatting with you.

On the stump once more...

China is rising and that is good but there are also many bad things that exist in the country. I hope Kitty has the opportunity to come to China (if she hasn't already) and perhaps do some volunteering to help 'her people'. Or work to help change things here for the better.

Ok, that's it.

uh, Kitty, please check your history on Chairman Mao and why people 'followed' him. Does the word "forced" come to mind?

You are speaking like you were there, "we no longer have to hang our heads in shame".

I've seen your tone before from other Chinese (and other races) and I'm sorry to say I don't agree with it.. We are people who help people because they are people, not because of race.

Sorry tonyc, I'm hopeful people would be objective and detached from making a decision based on race.

Once, a woman from Taiwan was commenting on the way a Criminal in Miami was dragged off the bus, ,he happened to be Chinese. She was upset that he was dragged off the bus (she said with so much emotion, nearly crying, "like a dog") not caring that this man was breaking the law but that he was Chinese. When an American was supposed to be Whipped in Singapore for bringing drugs in the country most of us were indifferent about it. If you do the crime you do the time. It doesn't matter what race you are.

Ok, I'm off my stump now...

My Mum told me, that in back in her younger days in Taipei, when the young college girls, whenever they heard a young man with a Northern Beijing accent, they all swoon and fall in love him, especially, and if he was cute, the better.

Blue Sky,

Yes, we love our Loonies. And Canada's gift to the States are those big droppings from our Canadian Geese that fly south. (smile)

Yes, we are taught to be humble and courtesy, but not to the point where others take advantage of our humility and walk all over us. That's why Mao stepped in, and the people followed him. Today, China is on the road to prosperity and we no longer have to hang our heads in shame as we did from the 1850's until just after the Cultural Revolution. China is a changing!

My parent's want us to be strong. So, I'm not afraid to show my pride.

Blue Sky, quite a bit of Canadians speak English with an American accent, especially in Vancouver, but not in Victoria. But you probably don't know anything about Canadians, bet you can't name any of our Prime Ministers in the last 16 years.

We get all of your television shows and movies. Not all of us say, "eh", and "out and aboot", either. But, we still love a bit of humour and colour in our life.

Hello everyone,

As a Newbie, Jenny and Ken's approach to newbie lessons makes me feel comfortable. It's as if I am walking through a door (from a western perspective) into a new world (chinese culture language etc) and they are encouraging me through that door. Once through the door ( into a higher level of study) I will feel confident enough to absorb and enjoy my new environment without needing so much western style support.

Henning, no personal apology needed my friend!

I guess this issue isn't going away.

There was condescension in the comments regarding Mandarin accents as pointed out by Lantian. We can chalk that up to misguided youthful overexuberance. I think she sees the effects of her posting and hope she'll want to do better in the future.

As for the Chinese pride issue, I still don't see anything wrong with those remarks. They did not insult anybody else's heritage or have an overaggressive tone. Indeed, many Chinese are taught humility and to deflect praise. But pride of one's heritage is universal, and yes, it can manifest in myriad ways. I don't believe this is an extreme case here.

Billybobjoebobwilly, while your idealism is to be admired, we live in an imperfect world, and people are not going to conform to how we want them act or speak sometimes. It doesn't mean we stop striving to achieve perfect comportment, goodwill, peace, etc. What I've learned from experience is to develop a thick skin and not let every perceived slight disturb me. If that we're the case, we'd be debating this issue forever.

Well, in a way I agree with Kitty regarding Beijing accents. The other day I was in the ShiTang and caught the voices of a group of Beijing (or DongBei) students and it was quite nice to listen to. But too much of the "rrrr" sound and it begins to rake on your soul. You can hear nice Beijing accents from IMandarinPod.com, perhaps Kitty can get more from that site than she does here.

Now, regarding pride, this is a double-edged sword. It's ok to be proud of one's heritage but not at the point of making others feel uncomfortable about it. Keep it to oneself. Even today I was with my students and we talked about the differences between Americans and Chinese. One thing my students (who are 35 or so) told me was that Chinese are taught to be humble. That when given a complement will deny it or pass it to someone else. They also taught me that Chinese will choose their words carefully so as not to hurt others or make others feel bad. Professing one's pride to be "whatever" in the presence of other "not the sames" can make the "not the sames" feel bad. Though I'm from the states I never profess my pride to be such to anyone. When people here find out I'm from the states some say "Oh, USA, GOOD", and I just reply that every country has good and bad, we are all people, individuals not to be identified with our "teams". They then feel more comfortable and we have good conversations.

So Pride can quickly be interperted as arrogance and make the other person/people feel uncomfortable...

I could be wrong but I could guess that Xiao Mao is rather young of age and has been instilled with pride but less so in the humility category. Hopefully I'm wrong.

WHERE'YA AT IS ALL THAT - I think Cpod is proud to be based in Shanghai.

Unfortunately, in Kitty's various online postings I feel there is a lot of arrogance and putting down of other accents. I don't like this attitude in China, or anywhere for that matter.

I like the shao kao guy from Xin Jiang, I like the movie stars from Hong Kong, I like my own 二话, I'm down with the si instead of 是 from Taiwan. I can learn Chinese from all.

To resurface this, Kitty said, "Shanghai speakers don't speak with the Northern flair that Beijingers speak. " ..umm yah, if that sentence is not a contradiction in itself.

It's like saying, "Those from the United States don't talk with the looney flair of Canadians." You 'betcha we don't, and I don't speak with the Queen's stiff upper lip either.

So can we now go get some coffee and chat about global warming, I don't care if it's SPF, 星巴克 or at a tea house...but then again Starbucks is kinda the coolest. ;p IMO

In my experience, as a Western foreigner trying to learn Chinese and having lived over 3 years there, it has always been easier to learn and comprehend Chinese spoken with as little accent as possible from a south China local as opposed to a northerner. Perhaps it was the lack of the strong "--r" sounds, perhaps it was the speed and clearer pronunciation. That said, at the advanced levels, differing accents would be important to learn (including the Shanghai habit of pronouncing "shi " words as "si") as China has an incredible variety of accents just within its Mandarin speaking zone. Recognizing and comprehending Mandarin in its many forms and accents is a necessary skill in acquiring fluency, as it is in any other language, but only at the advanced levels please.

I have a good friend. He's born and bred in the States, lives in Seattle. He has the most beautiful Beijing accent, as does his brothers. His parents were graduates of BeiDa, and they taught Math and Mandarin at a State University. So, it's a shame not to be able to hear a Bejinger accent here on CPod. I think from the accents, most of the production team are from Shanghai, or Provincial areas surrounding Shanghai.

BlueSky,

Thanks for your response on the translators. I was serious. I didn't know about these online dictionaries, and language translators until just recently. Also, I can't remember where I write some of my messages, and there's no mechanism here to allow us to follow them, is there?

John C, Thanks for your kind words. I am proud to be Chinese. Alway have and always will. I hope everyone should be proud of their culture, their history and the roots of their ancestry, etc.

My parents and grandparents have instill my knowledge of being Chinese.

小猫

tonyc,

you are right! My apologies.

To clear things up: my reaction was not triggered towards the *content* of the actual discussion, but rather to the aggressive and caustic tone of a series of posts throughout "Connect" and the "Blog", sometimes bordering on insult. I am actually convinced not even the author meant to create that kind of atmosphere.

But I agree that irony is not the answer of choice in a multicultural text environment.

I too would like to have more than one lesson giver for a level. Can anyone deny that it's better for learning? And saying that ther are other voices for dialogs, as was offered by CPod, is a cop out. Not the same thing at all.

I don't know how this conversation got to this point. I believe Kitty was expressing her pride in being Chinese. Lantian had pertinent questions about her views and even billybobjoebobwilly advocated a distinction of culture in his mention of Chinese martial arts. billybobjoebobwilly, I would go further and say this can apply for any people dealing with a person new to their culture. Henning, let's do without the snide remarks though. Chinesepod and its users are better served if one of its forum moderators refrained from jumping into the fray of a fight and was able to quell such differences of opinion.

Let's get to more important topics of improving Chinese!

Nobody here has had experiences with cats?

Small cats often forget to retract their claws when they want to play. When they become more experienced and mature they learn how to control their weapons. Well, at least some do.

蓝天说的对。 我们必须谦虚并且尊重他人的意见。

I often find it interesting that some Chinese feel that it's impossible for a westerner to understand their culture when some Chinese don't understand so much themselves. They just know they are Chinese so they can comment in such a way without research or validation. Now that China is rising care should be taken that that rich culture does not dissolve into western ways. For example, now many children are persuaded not to practice traditional martial arts but to play western sports instead. While I'm happy for the improving conditions of China and it's people it's somewhat sad to witness the decline of such practices which are more than fighting arts. I am hoping, as a westerner, to preserve the line which I practice and spread it in the west.

小猫猫，

有时候你好傻，你说的 “东方是东方，西方是西方“， 你多老了， 别忘了中国有东南西北，新世界代也很小。讨厌你的小看别人的看法。

蓝天

I concur with Kitty's comments about the lyrical beauty of the Beijing dialect but as Chinesepod is based in Shanghai, makes sense to have locals as the workstaff. I rarely hear an accent show up in Jenny's speech.

Kitty, 你是什么地方人？

Thanks henning, that is a good lesson. I think that came out just after the v3 conversion and had download problems.. In fact, I just tried again and it still has problems but I worked around it.

billybobjoebobwilly,

you find the bank stuff you asked for here:

http://chinesepod.com/learnchinese/bank-transactions/

No longer lessons, please. The short length allows me to fill varying time slots more effectively. 15 minutes is ideal.

Let me just add, I have benefitted a bunch from CPod but in some areas have been left wanting more.

I think some of the podcasts have too much of a western flair or perspective, (cocktail parties/bars/soap operas).

At the same time, I find most of the westerners I come in contact here (Shanghai) are boring (just want to hit the bars and chase women, so shallow) when there are so many cultural things available to get involved with here.

I also feel the podcasts are a little short in length. I find myself turning more to iMandarnpod.com for longer lessons which are taught all in Chinese for the most part and more recently, melnyks.com (Serge Melnyk).

I had a telephone guy come over today to install a phone line in my apartment. He talked about the line installation, and was talking about Chairman Mao, I almost didn't understand a word of what he was saying. Topics like this are good. Going to the bank and opening an account, withdrawing money, getting interest on my money, etc.

Hi Kitty, 只用自己的脑子的系统，有时候有多问题呀，没办法改，难改，不过我需要一辈子用它。

And in case you were actually not just joking, I use the pinyin/hanzi input tool from Google on an WindowsXP machine running in Chinese with an English Firefox browser. I occasionally will look up a word if I really cannot guess the hanzi or correct pinyin. Invariably though that is when I use the wrong word, dictionaries make for poor sounding Chinese. I am much to lazy to convert my English to Chinese with any automated too except to re-write things from my own stubborn head. ;p

Mark,

Sorry to be a bit of thread in chatting with Kitty-cat, thought what you said in your last comment sounded pretty darn good. :)

Oh that is so true Mark.. about shared experiences making up one's cultural background. I lived in London for three months a few summers ago and took a class about multiculturalism in England. It was fascinating. The prof showed us clips from old tv shows, talked about shared historical experiences, etc.. for example telling us about the time the pope came to England and what the increasingly secular population thought of that. By the end of the summer, I felt more in tune with the British than I thought possible in such a short time.

I'm not sure if it would be possible to explain those experiences in Chinese at the intermediate level though. Perhaps for all you advanced folks.

In regard to describing the actual situation, Henning's comments sound right to me. And I think the fact that CPod makes the lesson content relevant to non-Chinese is one of the things that makes it fun and interesting.

That said, to me, one of the reasons to study Chinese is a hope to see life from a little different perspective.

I would love to see lessons on cultural background that Chinese people share. Americans can assume that other Americans know certain TV shows, actors, sports teams, etc. that are a basis for breaking the ice with a stranger. I'm sure people who grew up in China have similar shared experiences, but I don't know what those are, and I would be interested to know a little more. I think the advanced lessons give that kind of insight, but they are still a struggle for me and I'm impatient, but maybe that's good; keeps me studying.

So, BlueSky, what English-Chinese translator are you using to translate your English to Chinese?

I would like to see more Northern Chinese speakers involved with Cpod. Shanghai speakers don't speak with the Northern flair that Beijingers speak.

Why not have someone with a Beijing accent be one of the voices on Cpod Advance Lessons? Not to squeeze out Jenny or Xiu Xia, but as an addition.

Too bad about Le Guan, he was a breathe of fresh air while he was here.

Has Jenny writing most of the lessons from the very beginning, middle and up to now, or did others write the lessons in the middle?

Being Chinese, I don't relate to some of these lessons, because they aren't really addressing my world.

East is East, and West is West. Eastern culture will always be different from the Western culture, so why would anyone want expunge these two worlds???

The Middle Kingdom is rising again!

UNCLEAR - on the concept of what everyone might mean by "western." I think the Cpod lessons are generally modern, quite open and contemplative in thinking, interesting, present many facets of life in China, express ideas and use a various mixes of English/Chinese, Chinese/Chinese.

I think it's high-time to expunge the terms "Western, Eastern, Occidental, Sino." IMO :)

我觉得在世界新代那句词“西方” “中方” 现在没有什么好用的。如果我就能了解一般的人在中国，美国，等等怎么过日子最行了。坐飞机我在世界能跑来跑去，十个小是能到别的地方，只有上网，手机，本地朋友 就觉得这世界不太差别，也所有的地方有自题别。 IMO

As an ABC - American born Chinese, I enjoy the podcasts although I have many other learning alternatives living in New York. There are friends, three Chinatowns to choose from, cable access and DVDs, et al that I can turn to improve my Chinese. I still tune to Chinesepod because the podcasts can connect to listeners like a favorite radio or tv show can. There is a definite Western flavor but maybe that appeals because I'm ABC! Most people seem to be Westerners and I think Chinesepod can give a good introduction to the Chinese language if that is your ultimate goal. That being said, there is always room for improvement. One thing sorely lacking is the presence of native male Chinese moderators and voices. To reach a wider audience and give a better representation of China, I think Chinesepod will need to have as many native male leads as there are female ones currently. I believe Ken Carroll previously stated that many native male speakers did not enunciate as distinctly as native female speakers. Well that is culture right there!!! Until progress is made on that front, Chinesepod is providing a fun but limited view of China from the present podcasts.

yes, i agree with jenny. of all the chinese people i have met (which isn't many, but still), there are two types i've noticed: the ones who look shocked when i say i'm learning chinese, expect me to be very bad at it, and say it's like a different world. which is kinda annoying. and then there are other ones, who are suprised but pleased, and always we seem to get on at a basic level very similarly, happily laughing about the cultural things that come up. also, with westerners who i talk to it about, they tend to immediately start generalising aout china, which annoys me. i definately feel there are still a lot of pre-conceived notions that there's something intrinsically different and impossible to get past between east and west.

(sorry just realised that was a all a little bit off-topic)

I've always suspected that we have a tendency to over-exoticise the daily lives of a different people. Perhaps it more or less boils down to the essential things: getting a glass of water, unclogging a toilet, falling in and out of love?

Culture begins in the home. Today's Chinese culture now includes the younger set listening to, touching, tasting all that the west has to offer. They still go home to those who may have participated in the Cultural Revolution. Now what would that look like!?

In Beijing, I saw Hutong's being demolished under the watch of a large police presence. The feeling is probably the same regardless of where you are from. Nobody likes to be forcefully removed from their home to make way for progress. But a Hutong is highly unusual to a westerner, very cultural.

But, the westerner learning to speak Chinese needs to acclamate slowly. So CPod, whether you've planned this measured introduction to culture or not, keep up the good work.

I really liked how John put it, "...If the source of information doesn't present the material in a way that you can connect to culturally, you will find it confusing or simply boring."

BLCU is written by Chinese professors with their pre-concieved notions...and that stuff is BORING!

I don't think Cpod has too worry too much about 'culture' as long as the content continues to engage their listeners, and helps them learn Chinese.

I have yet to hear Cpoder's complaining that the stuff isn't interesting. (Let's not go all Howard Stern though).

To be honest, the "culture" will come when one engages with real people. Not a podcast.

I'd say that Henning got it pretty dead-on. Those practical issues as they relate to the most likely audience (in terms of level) are part of what determine a lesson's level. Jenny does write most of the dialogues, but Connie and Peggy also write some. Aggie is fully devoted to Practice now, and Le Guan only worked at ChinesePod for a short time last summer. Ken has mentioned before about how the brain filters out what is confusing or don't make sense. I think this applies to cultural context as well. If the source of information doesn't present the material in a way that you can connect to culturally, you will find it confusing or simply boring. I think this issue affects a lot of Chinese learning resources out there, and it's one area that ChinesePod is good at: staying culturally relevant to its audience.

I'd say that Henning got it pretty dead-on. Those practical issues as they relate to the most likely audience (in terms of level) are part of what determine a lesson's level. Jenny does write most of the dialogues, but Connie and Peggy also write some. Aggie is fully devoted to Practice now, and Le Guan only worked at ChinesePod for a short time last summer. Ken has mentioned before about how the brain filters out what is confusing or don't make sense. I think this applies to cultural context as well. If the source of information doesn't present the material in a way that you can connect to culturally, you will find it confusing or simply boring<.em>. I think this issue affects a lot of Chinese learning resources out there, and it's one area that ChinesePod is good at: staying culturally relevant to its audience.