Petition to extend CPod to include Cantonese, Shanghainese, and other dialects

Hello nicolas. I know. Isn't it amazing that we can buy "Le Tamoul sans peine en 40 lecons" (or something like that!) at FNAC, but nothing on Cantonese in CD form? And the French are so good at "difficult" languages! The two best non-Chinese, Mandarin-speakers I have ever known were both French, graduates of INALCO in Paris.

Assimil would be perfect for that, unfortunately they don't have Cantonese CDs.

Nicolas, you've hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what we need.

I think there's a lot of Mandarin students who'd like to learn a smattering of Cantonese -- enough to say hello sorry I stepped on your foot is this where I catch the bus yes tea is fine but I prefer beer -- to get a feel for the language without learning it fully. Being an older language from the same roots, it enriches one's understanding of Mandarin, and makes future Mandarin studies fall into a broader and more interesting perspective.

Those who did want to continue learning Cantonese would have had the best possible introduction, both pedagogically and motivationally, with such an introduction from CPod. They'd be in a much better position to select and make good use of suitable resources from elsewhere.

I would love to follow 50 or so Cantonese newbie lessons, just to have an idea and be able to communicate a little when I am in Guangdong province.

My heart was beating very loudly when I was waiting for the Stunt Toddler and his nanny at the traffic lights, and I carried him all the way to my car because I wanted to feel his weight. ST's preschool and the girls' school were on lockdown because it was thought that they might be "soft targets". Thank GOD nothing happened today.

Dear calkins, yes, that is what I meant. And the scary thing was that the Stunt Toddler's preschool and another school in the vicinity were on total lockdown. They were really at the "epicentre" of the search. We are not used to seeing a lot of policemen/ policewomen anywhere in Singapore, let alone Gurkha trooper with automatic weapons. You can grow up on this island without ever seeing a live weapon, that's why it was so scary for us. We're pansies! I'm just so glad that it took only a bit of a walk to get the little boy back safe with us. Thanks, calkins.

Auntie68, I was reading the recent news and just realized this must be what you were talking about. Wow. Singapore hunts escaped suspect I'm also happy to hear you and your family are safe.

Looking on the good side, it gives a great opportunity for him to see those uniforms and understand it is the uniform of the friends, not foes. I'm sure when I was a small child if I'd been lost or afraid I would have avoided those uniformed people because they looked so unfamiliar. (Of course, when I grew older I learned other reasons to avoid them, but that's a different story!)

Dear tvan, thanks so much. We're back in the family home, and safe and sound. Stunt Toddler didn't pick up anything at all from the worried adults around him. Have to say that seeing that kind of police presence not 100m from my home was unnerving. No news yet regarding the fugitive. Once again, thanks...

Auntie68, I just read the second part of your post carefully. I hope everything is all right. My prayers are with you and your family.

Auntie68, I've sometimes wondered about that as well. Was that all those regions spoke a similar language in the first place? Or were there a number of different languages slowly brought together over the centuries by 秦始皇's insistence on a unified written language

tks tvan, for being the first to respond to my strange 3-part question. I have the feeling that your answer confirms something I've suspected, which is that Cantonese -- for belonging to the "yue" family of Chinese, may be a different language depending on how you look at it.

Got to run now. Was due to pick the Stunt Toddler up from pre-school at 11.15am, now I hear that an important Jemaah Islamiyaa" (Al Qaeda's Southeast Asian arm) detainee has just escaped from custody, that he is armed, and that he is believed to be in the vicinity of the Stunt Toddler's preschool. I'm sure everything will be okay... but it looks like I'll be picking the S.T. up today and walking him home past the security, instead of driving him home. Take care, all. All life is so precious...

Auntie68, to answer your three question:

1. I can pick up nonstandard dialects that are totally different from Mandarin (e.g. Cantonese). I have problems picking up dialects with more subtle differences such as Sichuanese or even Beijing dialect.

2. I can distinguish Cantonese from other dialects, but no luck on Shanghaiese versus Taiwanese, etc.

3. Same answer as #2 above.

As I'm sure you know, even Mandarin is seldom standard. There's always some subtle difference, usually easily accommodated once understood.

Personally, I do not need a section on other dialogues: Madarin (I intentionally left out an n) is hard enough.

But I certainly have no objection if Cpod were to provide a dialect section featuring the more important dialects. I was in Hong Kong and Shen Zhen earlier this week and I can say that know only Mandarin in these parts does not cut it. One really should know Cantonese if they have to communicate in these areas.

Hello. For what it's worth, today's JapanesePod101.com class is... a dialect class ("Japanese Culture Class #53 - Niigata Dialect"). Anybody who's interested in hearing how they handle it, you can head over there now.

Must say that the job is made easier in Japanese by the fact that the basic sounds of "standard" Japanese -- and hence the hiragana writing system -- and perfectly adequate for representing the basic sounds of the dialect. So their users don't have to learn a whole different system of "pinyin" in order to tackle the Japanese dialects.

What the JPOD101 team are doing so well there is: gently giving their users the tools to listen to the dialect, intelligently, with a view to recognizing the "standard Japanese" meaning in the dialect words.

I would even say (as a Cantonese "heritage speaker", and also as somebody who is studying Mandarin and Cantonese now) that Chinese is no different from Japanese insofar as the differences between "standard form" and dialect are actually fairly consistent. Eg. yin1 and xin1 in Mandarin are yum1 and xum/sum1 in Cantonese.

Of course, there are important exceptions, but there are some very general patterns too, most of the time.

I am very curious to know whether CPOD users at various levels feel that they are able:

1. To tell whether they are listening to a dialect (as opposed to "standard Mandarin");

2. To know if they are listening to two different dialects, even if they don't really understand what is being said;

3. To be able to recognize and identify some dialects when they hear them (Eg. "Oh, they're speaking Cantonese!" or "Sounds a bit like Minnan, no?")

Thanks!

At this point, I'm not interested in the dialects. I have enough on my plate as a newbie.

However, for those who *are* interested, I think a small extra "dialect supplemental" fee for membership would be good. Perhaps $25 per year per dialect? That is, if separate dialogues and mp3s are used for them.

I'd like to learn about each of the different dialects of Mandarin. Many of them are impossible to understand until you get a run-down on their sound changes and tone changes.

RJBerki, I think you're right... but it's nice to dream.

dialects - I think you underestimate the amount of work and resources this would require.

sebastian, thanks for the petition. I'd like to learn the dialects too!

auntie68: this is because they already spent all their money on the ferrari. There is nothing more left. :)

Xiaohu,

First, it's no skin off my nose if Cpod adds dialect coverage. Sebastian has said he is willing to pay double the premium package price to get Cantonese. Get a few hundred or a few thousand more users like that, and you might be able to make a business case to Ken and/or his investors.

On the question of five major dialects, I respectfully disagree. While I would agree that 客家话，广东话, and 国语 all qualify, I think you need to add 四川话, 闽语 （Taiwanese's parent)， 湘语，赣语，and 吳语（Shanghaiese's parent)... and then you go into other major dialect divisions such as 闽南语/闽北语/台湾话， or other influential dialects such as 潮州话 (at least my mother-in-law says it's influential)... and I'm not even talking about all the 方言’s.

Eg. I've heard (jokingly) of people from Esslingen who own Ferraris but only drive it outside the state because they don't want to lose their ability to bargain really hard at the Saturday Market!

sebastian -- no-ooooo! Hakka people are like Schwaebish people, please don't do this!

xiaohu: I agree, I certainly would not mind to paying more (or even double) for Cantonese.

xiaohu, no no no! Half of my genes are frugal Hakka genes (from my mother), I like to spend as little money as possible. I've heard Hakka relatives saying that artificial flowers are the best because they "last forever". Hakkas are the Chinese people who will NEVER remove the plastic cover that their new sofa had upon delivery, which you are supposed to remove and discard.

sebastian:

I agree, it seems to me creating lessons for the big 3 Chinese dialects shouldn't be too labor intensive to produce, (at least a few to initially put the feelers out).

It seems to me that those interested in learning Cantonese or Shanghainese could easilly be "upsold" to a membership that includes all 3, bringing more members into Chinesepod and making more money for Praxis. It sounds like a win / win proposition to me.

AuntySue, just wanted to say something about one example you used. Namely, the construction 有冇? in Cantonese, as opposed to Mandarin's 有没有？

I believe that in Mandarin, there is a word -- 否 fou3 -- which has a similar function to 冇. Hence in Mandarin you can say 是否 instead of 是不是？The difference is that in Mandarin, this is a rather formal construction, whereas in Cantonese this kind of construction has been preserved in everyday speech. Let's go for it!

tvan:

I don't see adding a section called "dialects" as a slippery slope at all. There are only 5 major Chinese dialects in use today, 1- Mandarin, 2- Cantonese, 3- Shanghainese, 4- Taiwanese, 5- Hakka.

Shanghainese would be a no-brainer considering the in-house labor pool. Jenny could just record 2 sessions for each lesson.

The transcripts would be similar.

In light of the fact that Praxis has message boards for Cantonese it seems like there is a measure of support for the language (and correct me if I'm wrong...doesn't Praxis also own "Cantonesepod.com?")

Even if Chinesepod added lessons for all 5 dialects there isn't a need to go further than that being that the other dialects are either mutually intelligible branches of Mandarin or one of the other dialects, or so obscure that there wouldn't be enough support for the subject of creating lessons for those dialects to come up.

Hello sebastian. Your point about Cantonese and Mandarin being dialects of the same ancient form of Chinese is a very important one. I think that anybody who begins to explore "Classical Chinese" will find that a lot of "peculiar" Cantonese forms are actually quite close to Middle Chinese.

As somebody who was brought up hearing (though not reading or writing) Cantonese, I'd say that the main differences (eg. particles, pronouns, etc) between Mandarin and Cantonese may be confined to as few as 20 - 30 key characters which govern syntax, not vocab. And after a certain number of such "grammar" characters, you can already see the pattern.

Eg. The use of 系 instead of 是. The Cantonese particles for expressing degree or amount, eg. 几多? 几好? 点样? And instead of 明日 and 明天早上, it's 听日 and 听朝, respectively. The preference for 似 over 象 (eg. 好似 instead of 好象). Using 同 instead where 和 or 替 would normally be used in Mandarin; but then the meaning can be guessed if you know the character 同.

To me, Cantonese has a bit of the "ring" of Shakespearan English to it. But I guess that is actually a plus for me because I'm the kind of person who loves to read Shakespeare for fun, finds his language very immediate and lively!

Yes, I agree that Cantonese and Mandarin are sometimes like completely different languages. However, there are also a lot of words whose pronunciation is pretty close (or to the untrained learner almost identical).

For example, take the Chinese name of the Octopus card:

八達通.

Mandarin pronunciation: ba1 da2 tong1

Cantonese pronunciation baat3 daat6 tung1

When read aloud, the Cantonese sounds like "baa3 daa6 tong1".

Another example are the words 買（买） and 賣（卖）.

For me Cantonese and Mandarin are dialects (or variations) of the same ancient language. But Cantonese is definitely not a dialect of Mandarin or vice versa.

"佢" for he/him; "聽日" for tomorrow; "我哋" for "我们“...

AuntySue, I hope that these examples you gave are enough to tempt any language junkies out there!

Here's a grammar example from me now; my BLI coursebook uses simplified Cantonese characters, so the grammar differences really stand out:

"I would also like to have several post-cards"

Cantonese: 我重要买几张明信片添。

Mandarin: 我还要再买几张明信片。

In the Cantonese, the key words to express "also" are the 重, combined with the 添 at the end.

But in the Mandarin version, the notion of "also" is expressed with the 还.

Well, I think I'll just stick with one but if enough people are interested in it: Why not? It's not like you're forced to use those lessons as well.

If anyone still thinks that the term "dialect" is appropriate, have a look at these two beginner lesson sentences from my book, where I've mangled the Mandarin to be as close to the Cantonese as I could.

English

Do you have any books? No.

Mandarin

你有不有书？不有。

你有不有書？不有。

Cantonese

你有冇書呀？冇。

Nei yau mo sue a? Mo.

English

He's coming to visit us tomorrow.

Mandarin

他明天来拜访我们。

他明天來拜訪我們。

Cantonese

佢聽日嚟探我哋。

kui ting yat lai taam ngoh dei.

When Cantonese people read Mandarin writing and speak out Cantonese, they're actually doing a little translation, much like a non-Spanish speaker could read an easy Spanish sentence, inferring and recognising similar words, and say it aloud as an English sentence.

When you listen to Spanish, as an English speaker, you can pick up a lot of the meaning. I suspect that on the spoken level it is not so easy between Mandarin and Cantonese. In fact, Spanish/Portugese and Portugese/French are pretty close in sound for understanding, and they're separate languages with a very similar script.

So from my tiny experience of these languages, I think the word "dialect" is misleading here.

Map of the HK MTR system, with station names in Chinese characters:

http://www.mtr.com.hk/images/MTR_routemap.jpg

Please enjoy.

Looking at my "Cantonese 400" coursebook (with audio materials), which was published by the former Beijing Languages Institute but is sadly out of print, even as few as 5 or 6 podcasts might be sufficient to highlight -- say -- 20 to 30 of the most common "Cantonese" characters. And give Mandarin speakers the tools to develop their own "feel" for the sounds of that language.

The first podcast could be about tones. Are there 3, or 6, or 9 tones? You could easily cover the “394052786“-mnemonic in the space of a single lesson. I'm sure that your users can contribute their personal mnemonics, which all seem to be very witty (my favourite is the one about bowls of "beef tendon soup".

So many fun topics -- a French friend of mine has already published (online) a map of the HK MTR with all the names translated into English, which really highlights the quirky Cantonese approach to names. Tsimshatsui, Yaumatei, Shatin etc... the characters are often very surprising, if not downright quirky!

And you can always find material for lessons on Cantonese food terms, so that CPODdies can order food and enjoy "yum cha" with confidence!

How about the names of major Chinese cities in Cantonese? Pretty useful if you are breaking the ice with Cantonese-speaking friends or business associates. The names of HK movie stars (not Edison Chen, for now...). Of HK movies -- "Mou Geen Dou"/ "Geen Gwai" etc.

Please? Thank you so much.

Hi sebastian. I'll support your initiative, of course. I like your "less is more" approach. Don't know a thing about Shanghainese, but for Cantonese I would definitely recommend some brief "language notes" in the pdfs, to highlight the difference in characters and grammar (there is not word-for-word correspondance between Cantonese and Mandarin).

Ken, will you please consider it? If you target the "dialect" section at CPOD users who already have a basic degree of Mandarin knowledge (eg. "heritage speakers" from the overseas Chinese communities, other CPOD learners at -- say -- highish Elementary or Intermediate), you can angle the podcasts as a "conversion" course, much like those currently available for Spanish speakers wishing to acquire Portuguese (and vice versa).

One possible model is the hugely popular "Japanese dialect" podcasts in JapanesePod101, which does a great job satisfying curiosity about Japanese dialects. The team there do a great job using the "dialect" classes to deepen their users' understanding of standard Japanese, which is a very important benefit.

Oh well, I think that all these arguments "for" and "against" have already been well-ventilated on the Praxis blog (sometime in July 2007?), including the practical suggestions offered by various CPOD users.

Thanks again, sebastian, and good luck with your petition!

sebastian, I have no political concerns; the only reservations I have are the ones stated.

bbjt, that's a digression, but a good question. I personally haven't run into any audio files Sichuan dialect. Actually, if I had to learn a dialect, Sichuanese would be it. As soon as I speak perfect Mandarin...

*** light digression ***

Btw, where could I find some good audio files using Sichuan dialect ? I need to know how much I can get with my actual level of PTH.

After all Chinese dialects have been requested by various members several times. Or are there any "political" concerns about teaching non-standard Chinese that I am not aware of?

Yes, I know 88groups, but it does not seem a good substitute for podcasts. I am not sure you guys understand what I am suggesting. I am not proposing to put Mandarin and Dialect lessons into the same group, but to add a new group to the Chinesepod lessons page. So you'd have "Newbie", "Elementary", "Intermediate", ..., "Media" and a new "Dialect" group. Only people who are interested in dialects would check out the lesson in this group and as I said, those lessons could be re-recordings of existing CPod lessons and not new content. In the beginning it could be a simple experiment by CPod to find out how well it is received by the community.

I tend to agree with tvan. I think it's difficult enough learning Mandarin alone...throwing in other dialects here and there would only create confusion. Sebastian, are you familiar with 88groups? This is a good extension of CPod where you can create a group in a specialized area of Chinese. It could be a great place for you to start a group on specific dialects that you're interested in.

I don't this is a slippery slope. Launching an entire new site for a Chinese dialect would be. But what harm could be in adding a small feature that allows posting an occasional lesson using Cantonese, Shanghainese or any other Chinese dialect requested by the community? This could even be turned into a feature where volunteers could post versions of CPod lessons translated into their own dialect.

sebastian, given the number of dlalects in China, it seems like an awful slippery slope. I understand your interest in Cantonese and Shanghaiese. But, what about Sichuan, Fujian, Chaojiu... and the list goes on and on.

There is a Cantonesepod, isn't there?