Is CPod picking up Newbies?

yeah, I thought it was strange that CPod abandoned its mobile version of the web site, since the whole idea of CPod from the founding was about mobility. Even if I accept the idea that "apps are the future", I don't understand why CPod did not wait until they had more robust mobile app for iOS and Android before giving up on the mobile web site. I am not a programmer, so I don't know what the relative amount of resources needed to develop and maintain a mobile site relative to developing a mobile app are, but I would have thought that the app would be harder. I actually think the CPod iOS app is quite good ( I use it daily) , but I am disappointed that it has not been upgraded or debugged for such a long time. I guess the acquisition by BigFoot may have shifted the focus a bit (they are strong on video content but not so much on apps, and I am optimistic about Cod doing more video content.) But please, CPod, stay true to your roots and keep developing a better and better web based experience. The new audio format is a good step forward, and I hope you will keep committing resources to IT development.

I'm fairly skeptical of the movement toward mobile apps, too. Having said that, I've also found studying Chinese with my smartphone to be really convenient, and am continually surprised at the volume of mail we get about mobile studying. Branching out into the current mobile environment can't hurt, and if anything will help teach us valuable lessons for how to adapt to the next.

While I support CPod in all efforts at staying current, and becoming the center of the Web universe, I still think site specialized apps, are a really dumb idea. Here's why:

We've seen this before back in Web 1.0 time. Every XYZ.com wanted to improve their users' experience. So, they all coaxed me into downloading some "small" agent. After a while my PC was gummed up with these agents. (gummed up is a highly technical term, I know, but look it up in a dictionary or something.)

Smart phones are even more prone to being "gummed up" by junk software, because they are powered by dinky batteries. They have to carefully manage the software that runs on them to avoid impacting their battery life and basic function as phones and yuppie toys. It is basically not going to work to have every Web site fobbing some bit of junk software onto every phone to enhance the user's experience of that site.

This kind of fragmentation is also inimical to what made the Web so successful; I can connect any browser to any Web site and get useful information from it.

Despite various stores and market places, there are also security problems with this kind of one site, one software model. The attack surface is humungous.

I know that you won't believe me, but I am confident this fad will collapse of its own weight, and a standard environment for the mobile Web will emerge.

While I seem to recall various versions of the iPhone app with discussion features, and I think the current Android tablet app does have community features, I meant this generally: adopting to the mobile environment will be better for ChinesePod, both us and our users.

For what it is worth, I am a mobile user. However, that just means that I browse chinesepod.com with my phone. The idea of installing a special application for every site that wants to be "mobile", just strikes me as dumb. Even though I worship at the house of Android, rather than the other fruitful company, my service provider is very restrictive about what I can install. So, even if I wanted to, I often can't.

The main issues I have with mobile usage are: 1) The number of links it takes me to get to something. (Browsing on a phone is slow, and every link is a bit tedious to get through.) 2) Screen size and layout, but this is much less an issue than (1).

As to posting on the forums from my phone: Typing is a bit of a pain. So, you'll probably never get a lengthy posting from me on this medium, but the real problem is (1); it is just painful to navigate to anything I'd want to comment on.

"better mobile community"

..what's that all about? is there one already for CPod [with commenting, interaction etc ] going on? is it separate from the site here and if so why the fragmentation?

The upcoming version probably won't have a significantly improved Community function, as the real focus is on lesson delivery and interface. However, I sat down to talk with our iOS app developer today about just this point, and am going to try to push this into requirements for near future.

There are some voices that predict web portals will be essentially irrelevant within a few years because of the way mobile devices are becoming so predominant. I find that rather dismaying, personally. But while we kind of let the first mobile wave pass us by, we're definitely planning to make the apps a bigger and bigger priority. Features like a better mobile community will definitely help.

For now, the best way to suggest lessons is still in the community, or by contacting us via support@chinesepod.com.

That also raises another point: the limited functionality of the mobile app (along with the recent decision by CPod to discontinue the mobile version of the web site.). One of the great things about CPod was the ability to get answers from teachers and other users. I notice that the recently launched Skritter app has a connection to the same Forum the web users see. Are you considering this in the update / replacement of the current CPod iOS app?

yeah, good point jc. While mobile studying with CPod has been around for a few years, I'm sure the numbers are growing as more folk get these devices. And while I have posted from my iphone on rare occasions, I don't find an iphone very conducive for text imput...better just for short sms's. Even on a tablet like ipad, while that's easier, I don't find it nearly as quick as typing on a keyboard. Your comment "will only grow" while a good thing not only for CPod but for the rest of us if referring to absolute number of subscribers, has me slightly dismayed if it also implies a drop off in those using the site and commenting. I mean the mobile studying is fabbo, but I hope not many see it as an either/or thing but rather as both complementary. I wonder if there could be incentives to get folk more involved....food for thought.

Hi JC, in that case, is there a mobile channel for submitting lesson suggestions? I know there are multiple ways to get lesson topics into the queue, but I was curious if there were was a direct channel through the cpod mobile app that I didn't notice.

jsah,

your comment makes me curious. Firstly I'm wondering if it's in response to something said above....do you think someone is implying they should sacrifice quality? Secondly, I'm wondering what you mean by sacrificing quality to get hits. I don't think they sacrifice quality. I'm guessing that you may be referring to covering controversial topics that may generate more comments [ ...in my opinion the vast majority of topics are in no way controversial but rather mundane and its to cpods credit that they can make such mundane topics interesting, and also to their credit that they don't shy away from also covering the more sensitive/ controversial topics and I don't think this sacrifices quality in any way] but would be interested to expand on your thoughs. Cheers

I meant that chinesepod lesson seem to have become very narrow in focus for lesson topics especially in intermediate and upper intermediate towards function and everyday practicality (which I can appreciate at times) rather than social and cultural topics about China which is more interesting and I think can help people with making conversation in Chinese

For sure, in private communications, there are virtually no no-go areas in China. However, in public communications the definition of no-go is actually extremely ambiguous, as any politically-minded user of Sina Weibo, or reader of, say, the Global Times, will tell you. There's stuff out there which looks like it should be very sensitive, but is not, for whatever reason, eliminated, and stuff which looks like it should be perfectly legitimate grist to public debate, but is snuffed out for extremely opaque reasons - and thus we are all left to engage in good ol' fashioned Kremlinology to try and figure it all out.

Funny that a debate about a debate has ended in a debate on....you guessed it, Chinese politics. A delicious irony.

All this reminds me of an Upper Int. lesson about 18 months ago on runaway inflation which featured a married couple scoffing at the official news reports of everything being under control. Maybe CPod is fond of pushing those red lines, as and when the mood/political climate suits:)

I was responding to adamplax who said:

'There have been many people who have been asking for more lessons about politics and economics in China but they seem to stay away from that.'

This seemed to imply that despite demand, ChinesePod would stay away from these topics BECAUSE it is politics and economics. Actually there is lively written and spoken discussion in these topic areas in China - the 'no-go' areas are really quite narrowly defined.

Then I probably stated the obvious by saying that they are guided by commercial concerns including, as you say, not straying into the no-go areas. And I agree, 99% of the time it is a self-censorship mechanism, that is the Chinese way.

"All pure fiction of course - which in my terms means getting to the truth of the matter"

..haha, very good. I think you could have been [platonic] mates [in the Aussie sense] with Oscar Wilde

"Now tell me that that kind of story would not attract a few rousing conversations"

...haha, yeah I love it. I think you're showing that in terms of comments dropping off in the community this year, that it has really suffered from your relative absence. Great to see you in here challenging us, keeping it interesting mate. Jiayou :)

Hi Mark

You present a thoughtful analysis of the ChinesePod lesson content at different levels - something that I have I guess sub-consciously noted but not voiced here. As it happens, although not youthful, I enjoy the first category and never fail to find something useful for living here, even in the elementary lessons. The dating - not something that is remotely interesting to me personally. My only criticism here would be that it often panders to the stereotypical American - I would prefer something more responsive to the many and varied cultures who come to China to learn Chinese. (Americans are actually in a minority, but you would not realise this from ChinesePod.)

But there is more meat in the UI and Advanced (I rarely get to grips with Media, although I try to do that in real life) - I find the 'Chinese view', as you describe it, a great companion to learning the language and culture here. These lessons really do an excellent job of pushing you to greater heights with the language. It is a long time since I looked at a standard textbook but from memory this is where ChinesePod excels. The subject matter is often something that would never appear in a textbook.

As for the sensitive topics, it is limiting to some extent as you say, but not overly limiting. I like to follow as much as I can the kind of issues which the Chinese people themselves get excited about. I am sometimes sympathetic with the Chinese take on these things, but mostly I just like to see where the discussion goes amongst the Chinese. Just currently I am looking at the ground being raked over in the wake of the speech by Aung San Suu Kyi here in Oslo - I watched the whole speech on local TV.

Anyway - thanks again for your comments.

"I don't think ChinesePod steers away from [sensitive political] topics for anything other than commercial reasons."

I wouldn't be so sure. CPod operates in the same business environment as everyone else in China. The micro-environment is organically produced (ie. dictated by the needs of those who occupy the space) but the macro-environment is structured by government, and the rules are as follows:

You are free to discuss any subject, at any time, and deal with it in whatever way you see fit....with one major exception - sensitive political subjects. What are those political subjects, you say? Oh,你懂的." And thus, with self-censorship duly secured on the basis of ambiguity and potential/theoretical riches, business marches on, free to make money on (nearly) any terms it likes.

Or perhaps this was the kind of 'commercial reason' you had in mind?

' a quarter of a person '

Ha ha - I get your drift, but no-one here is going to allow you to present yourself as quarter of a person, Baba. In person equivalents, a quarter of your person is at least one whole ChinesePod poddie (and I mean no disrespect here, I seem to be on fragile ground on the edge of a precipice.) You are already counted in the 3.5 person equivalents willing to engage in discussion on the social/political/economic landscape of China.

Speaking of which - maybe ChinesePod could do a series on the efforts of an ambitious and rather colourful mayor to attract investment in a growing animation industry, build a new airport, create a 'green' environment, and clean up the undesirable elements in her city. All pure fiction of course - which in my terms means getting to the truth of the matter. You could have them interpreting edicts from Beijing relating to hours of homework set for high school kids, the teaching of English, and the eating of dogmeat. Now tell me that that kind of story would not attract a few rousing conversations. :)

put me in for a quarter of a person mate, just for the heck of it, and cos' I'm up for anything

'politics and economics in China'

There are about three and a half people interested in this area of study on the community boards - this must be an indicator of the real demand for this kind of material. It probably needs to be delivered at the higher levels - UI and Advanced, so that also reduces the pool of customers. I speak as one who IS interested, but getting a conversation going is difficult. It used to happen from time to time back a couple of years ago I recall (eg. the national census, education.) that comes back to Baba's point about needing a critical mass of poddies to get an interesting discussion going.

I don't think ChinesePod steers away from these topics for anything other than commercial reasons.

I would draw a distinction between this and the 'business' topics - something that ChinesePod does a fair bit of, but this is not subject material I can get terribly interested in.

wow, thanks mark, such a great post, very insightful and beautifully put, and while as I said you're in the best position to comment, it all rings true to me.

"did I mention dating?"

...haha

"Discussing sensitive political topics would probably hinder rather than help such a person"

..good point

duoxie pengyou :)

Actually, I have covered all lessons except some of the early media lessons, but with CPod's current bi-weekly schedule for publishing new advanced and media lessons, I will be caught up in not too long.

My impression is that the lessons through intermediate take a point of view that reflects how a youthful, western ex-patriot would see the world, and addresses the language issues that would help that kind of person get by in China: dating, finding a place to live, work related issues, ... did I mention dating? Discussing sensitive political topics would probably hinder rather than help such a person. So, it may be just as well, that these lessons steer clear of what he or she would see as the hot topics of the day.

The advanced lessons, and even more so, the media lessons take a more Chinese point of view. That might be deliberate, or it might be that they are done by CPod's Chinese staff, Ken Carrol's Chinese wasn't good enough to provide effective guidance initially, and inertia took over from there. In any case, these lessons tend to discuss things that Chinese people are currently discussing, or cultural topics. This includes a fair amount of self-criticism of current Chinese society and circumstances, maybe a bit less so recently, but it is there if you look, and quite interesting.

One of the more interesting aspects of these lessons is that it gradually becomes apparent that Chinese people are not necessarily concerned with the same topics as the average, studly, ex-patriot adventurer, that the lower level lessons target, would think Chinese people should be concerned about.

I have also found that in discussions with Chinese friends, I often have to be careful about political topics (not just the three t's, but also, say, their impressions about current events in Syria, some islands near the Philippines that were recently in dispute ... ) . The truth about people is that when it comes to politics, we mostly like to hear our own point of view reflected, if we don't, the discussion can get heated, or offend pretty easily and quickly. That kind of discussion might prompt more posts to Chinesepod's community section, but I'm not sure it would promote language learning.

"Support of folk like yourself makes the journey so much more enjoyable and it's so encouraging so thanks for that."

Same to you, mate. I let my subscription lapse for a while, but just paid up again recently so I'll be around for a while.

"shy away from more interesting, cultural and socially based lessons"

...I was going to ask "like what" but I see you've explained this with "politics and economics" ...hmm, well apart from the fact that some say you do have to tread somewhat carefully in China with topics that might be deemed sensitive [political...the 3 t's] to those who control the great firewall [ do I recall correctly that it has been said the cpod site was once shut down a few years ago...before my time?] I haven't particularly noticed any shying away from stuff they could get away with. As for many people asking for these topics, all I can say is speak to pretzellogic....there have been probably thousands of lesson topic suggestions that have never been taken up [with suggestions way outstripping production], so I wouldn't tend to read too much into that. I agree with you about the business related material [but at least there, I can see there would be quite a market for those topics given the number of people learning chinese for business...can't imagine them not doing it really] but personally I don't find politics and economics much more interesting [ though I'm open minded and may find that indeed a rollicking discussion on such a topic is indeed interesting ]. Having said all that, I haven't taken careful note of such matters and grant you that if you have and you've noticed it, you might be right that they're avoiding some of those topics. I don't know that that would equate with ignoring "more serious learners" though, but rather it would constitute ignoring learners seriously interested in those serious topics. I guess someone like Mark would be best positioned to comment there, as they're the sort of topics that probably belong in the Media level lessons [and I think he's covered lessons from all levels including all the media ones] and I only rarely find the time to venture there. Anyhow, I get your point. Good luck with it mate. :)

I think though that their emphasis on lower level casual language learners causes them to ignore more serious learners and cause them to shy away from more interesting, cultural and socially based lessons.

Not everyone wants learn solely about business related material and narrowly focused day to day language. There have been many people who have been asking for more lessons about politics and economics in China but they seem to stay away from that.

ah, you see, very insightful comment yet again. I was aware they had a facebook page, but I rarely go on facebook and hadn't considered that. Very good point and could well be a big factor at play here. Personally I'd like to see more comment here in one place, but that might be just me. I can see the sense in them wanting to keep more social stuff there and keep it more learning focussed here, but for me the two should go hand in hand and not be fragmented, but I know others see it differently, so what do I know, hehe. I'm trying to think why I don't go for facebook as much and I'm thinking it might be partly also because it's just not as userfriendly as here [obviously millions of happy facebook users would disagree]. It's harder to type and set things out in there little boxes, and maybe harder to navigate, and as I've alluded to above, it's nice to have it all bundled here together in one place. Well I guess for me it just shows how well set out this site is, in comparison.

Hi bababardwan,

That's nice of you to say!

So I accidentally clicked on some link on the cpod homepage earlier, and it took me to cpods Facebook page. I didn't know they had one, but there actually seems to be quite a lot of discussion going on over there, with multiple posts a day and people discussing some of them pretty extensively in comments...

Perhaps some of the discussion has moved there? Though then again it seems there might be a very different crowd....I only log onto facebook once every few weeks, and have probably only 'posted' there a few times a year, mostly to wish someone a happy bday when I get a reminder of it when logging on...

I do have some nostalgia for memories of how active the board seemed to be some years back...though then again a lot of the posts were things like posting vocab lists, or asking for vocab lists, or additional info or explanations, things they seem to be covering in lesson documentation.

hehe, well I know I've been less active/distracted lately with my finger in too many pies, hehe, [and plan to get much more active with my Chinese once I've got some other stuff up to speed...and couldn't live without CPod, so you haven't got rid of me, hehe ], but seriously I too have felt there have been less folk commenting, but haven't crunched the numbers, don't have the patience for that [hats off to coolp for having the fortitude]. But hey, it's great to see you're still around mate. Support of folk like yourself makes the journey so much more enjoyable and it's so encouraging so thanks for that. I've been lurking a bit and been very pleased to see tingyun is still around also to provide his excellent input so that's encouraging. Also the transcript group were still going strong last time I checked with Chris leading the way with tremendous perseverance and good work, so all encouraging signs for mine.

yeah, good point mate, they have pushed the personal teacher and other course options, and if you had your own teacher then that would be a great way to get your questions addressed.

[if indeed there is a drop off in the number of poddies commenting, and not just a drop off in the number of comments]

come on baba - own up. It's all your fault. You're just not commenting enough these days! :)

I also wonder if more people have a Chinesepod personal teacher these days, so they can ask questions directly to their teacher rather than posting on the boards.

Yes, agreed Adam, I think they do a good job catering to all levels with a particular emphasis on where the numbers naturally are..at the lower levels. But whether the drop off in commenting reflects a true drop off in numbers of poddies or just a drop off in commenting [if indeed there is a drop off in the number of poddies commenting, and not just a drop off in the number of comments] only CPod would know [as pretz has pointed out above]. And I think a distinction needs to be drawn between ones appreciation of the lessons and ones enjoyment in participating in the discussions. I'm coming to think there is kind of a necessary critical number of active participants in a community like this posting comments for it to be worthwhile....to feel alive and like you will get a reply to your questions etc. I think CPod is keeping it's head above water to date, but you wouldn't want a further drop off in commenting numbers. I have kept up some posting on occasion on the other Praxis sites since their demise but it is kind of fruitless and discouraging when there are no responses. I think I was holding out for a resurrection, hehe. They're still great sites, but its amazing what a difference an active community makes. which after all is what language is all about...communication.

haha, I was wondering how this thread will have affected your numbers, but I note that you were just counting comments in the lesson threads only. I think there has been an even greater drop off in comments in other threads and in the number of new threads. Also, in that broader count, I think the difference in numbers would be even more significant if you didn't count the posts in the transcript group.

Sorry pretzellogic (regarding your next to last post), no time for that right now. I wasted my time yesterday and now I have to get some work done. Perhaps next weekend.

Another explanations:

4. Subscriber rates are down across all subscription levels from 2007 - 2009,

a) because the US economy is getting better

b) the zeitgeist around China isn't what it was

c) more Cpod competitors with better content

5. to baba's point, more lurkers are subscribing these days.

CoolP, bless your heart for going back and gathering the data. I've been curious about this also. Now if I can just stroke your ego enough to get you to look at 2007 - 2011, and we can see/characterize/estimate broader trends (At my current job, I have to look back three years, then forecast four years).

I know it must be laborious, but while I too have noticed a drop off in comments, I think to even start to make any sense of it, it would be helpful to analyse it a lot further, breaking down the comments, and comparing apples with apples [how many comments in the first day, the first week and the first month after lesson publication], how many comments were language related questions, how many were cultural questions/anecdotes and how many of these got answered [broken down by poddie answer/ teacher answer], and how many different poddies commented on the lessons, what level were those poddies at, deng deng. If you were to go back to the start of CPod, you would also have to presume there would be a plethora of questions that were subsequently answered by later lessons [esp QW]. The archive is huge now, so it's possible that more and more folk are able to refer to the archive and find answers there [though I've never had the impression that folk do this a lot, but we only base our observations on those that comment, and not on the lurkers].

..no, faner, after an experiment went horribly wrong in the chemistry lab they're all in the infirmary

Just because I haven't mentioned it, doesn't mean that Chinesepod High School Class of 2010 has moved on..... :-)

haha, careful comrade....comes close to cliquey cpod chinese commenter chemistry ;) ciao

"Baba's point that a critical mass of commenters is required rings true for me in principal. But there are still plenty of commenters on ChinesePod - we just don't seem to get those discussions flowering now. "

maybe it's not only the critical mass that's required, but the commenters need "chemistry" between them.

I also think the high level of comment in 2009 and 2010 was related to either controversial or amusing lines of personal experience, and discussion and debate - not so much to the level of difficulty of the lesson or the student's level. There have been some beauties in the past.

As an aside - isn't that why we went through the whole re-design of the boards? We got nested comments so that the long discussions could be hidden from view. Actually, the re-design was one of the most notable catalysts for discussion in the past three years! And the aim of the re-design was to ensure that off-topic discussion did not distract learners. :)

Also, 2009 we were suffering the peak of the GFC - maybe people had more time on their hands. Have we all gone back to work? (Yeah, I'm not serious about that one.)

Baba's point that a critical mass of commenters is required rings true for me in principal. But there are still plenty of commenters on ChinesePod - we just don't seem to get those discussions flowering now.

Another possible explanation is that ChinesePod itself has changed - but I don't give it too much weight. There is a continuing flow of good lesson material, just not enough at the Intermediate and above. I liked it more when there was a more even distribution - generally a new lesson at each level each week. I used to listen to any level - lately I haven't had the time.

yeah, baba, I was thinking the Tea Scam as well. I also noticed that people chimed in with their own experience around the scam, not asking Chinese grammar questions. I suspect over the years, the lessons with the most comments have most of the comments around people's fun experiences, and nothing to do with Chinese language.

yes, Mark, but we subscribers don't have access to the tools Cpod has that allow us subscribers to infer what people are actually doing on the site. We can only see comments, but cpod can see logins, downloads, browsers used, maybe time spent on site, tools used and so on. Using #, type, frequency of comments and so on is the best (legal, ethical) proxy we have.

1. the upper level lessons were on more interesting or inflammatory topics.""

..the recent "tea scam" lesson is a very good case in point here. That was always going to attract a lot of comments no matter the level. I haven't checked but I suspect most of the comments were cultural...that is, related to experiences with the scam, and not language related. I think if it had been at newbie level it would have attracted just as many comments, possibly/probably more. If it had been advanced or media probably a little less comments due to the language barrier.

yeah, good points mark. This is leading us in to the old lurker debate.

I don't know how well the level of lesson commented on reflects the commentator's level. I put the most energy into studying the Advanced and Media lessons, but I comment on whatever level provokes a comment.

My footprint on the upper level lessons is not big in terms of comments , or downloads, but I use them intensely. I pretty much just copy them to my smart phone when they come out, listen to them repeatedly there, then do the expansions and exercises once.

I like your logic pretz.