Cross culture communication

haha, very good. But yes, when jokes backfire. Stefanovic probably wished he could be one with a hole in the ground after that. One with the crust you could say.

Hi zhenlijiang

You make good points; I don't think that there is much pressure with self-censorship - if pressure is significant then is it is no longer self-censorship, right? The editors know what is likely to attract some direct action - a good editor has the right antennae for this kind of thing. I think that is how it works anyway.

At one level I am just trying to right the balance - foreigners love to complain about this and that being blocked or banned. So for poddies who don't live here - I think many would be surprised about what is discussed here in various media. This commonly expressed concern about censorship overlooks the fact that people rely on online sources more so than TV. Of course online material is harmonised but it is sporadic, inconsistent, often temporary, and/or triggered by a fairly narrow set of triggers (certain words that almost everyone knows will attract a block.)

At another level I am trying to get to the truth about banning and censorship. Any comments and contributions welcome!

Hi Bodawei, editorial and business decisions are one thing. And I don't think I'm that interested in what is banned in China (because I don't live there), but it almost sounds like you're saying all self-censorship is voluntary.

Out there in the Chinese internet I'm finding great freedom of speech and expression, people with a voice. Things that would get us immediately invited out of the Community here--profanity, blatant racism, vile personal attacks, a bunch of guys ganging up to threaten a woman just for saying she didn't like a certain actor they apparently regard as godly--go unchecked, unremarked upon. Then there are the unspecified "sensitive" topics that you are warned by website administrators not to bring up (you do, you get harmonized). The latest on Mtime--some posts and comments on "Beginning of the Great Revival" are being 河蟹ed and the site is lying, as of now still saying "this movie has not been rated yet". That's self-censorship by the site and they're doing it because they don't want any trouble. OK--to be fair, I didn't ask them that.

But can you give me an example of a broadcaster, website or publication in China that self-censors where there's no pressure to? I ask because I think you would know. Or are the media also paranoid like your students, only imagining the perils of publishing or hosting totally uncensored content?

Most cities now ban motorbikes within the inner areas, defined by one of the ring-roads. However, the reason you still see motorbikes comes down to two or three main reasons: grandfathering of old registrations (this explains the old bangers you see - they wouldn't pass today's emissions requirements either) - there are not many and they will gradually disappear as the bikes fall apart or the police impound them for polluting; some old/disabled people get around in 3 wheelers - special arrangement I imagine, did not look into that; and .. the big bikes? If you can afford the big bike you can afford the fine. Quite a lot of people just take the risk - police are often not fussed about enforcing the law (paperwork?) but occasionally they will pick someone up to make an example for the others. I would be interested in comments if other poddies have some more information/experience on this.

China makes some Honda models - not sure about the CBR 600RR - check out the Chinese motorbike mags. They make my beloved Hornet but only a 250 version last time I looked.

I too would love a bike here. :)

Actually can you fill me in on the motor bike situation there? When I was in beijing all i heard is that bikes were all but banned outside the 4th or 5th ring. Yet I would occasionally see a bike in 三里屯 just chilling. Not a small one either, it would be a full on sports bike or big 1000cc+ cruiser. I have also seen those WWII style bikes as well. At one point I had looked at what it would cost to import a CBR 600RR out of curiosity and the process seemed quite involved.

Hi epyon18

'I think the issue with shows like South Park, Simpsons, Daily Show, Colbert Report, etc. is that we like to poke fun at our society, our government, and specific people in power. '

I get the drift of what you are saying (yes, we poke fun at our leaders in public more than the Chinese) but in what sense are these shows actually banned? I can watch American TV shows and I live in China. Just because something does not screen on CCTV does not make it banned.

some of your claims above about banning stretch credulity so to speak ... ;)

Actually this has been discussed at some length elsewhere on the site - do you remember those discussions?

'images of blood and skeletons'

Have you any statements about banning by the Chinese Government - that would be interesting. I chased up Government statements about the banning of motorbikes from certain areas of cities for some research - that was terribly interesting, to trace the reasoning and the actual public statements.

There is a lot of blah about banning in the media but not much in the way of concrete facts - my students think that every essay they write is scrutinised (someone must sit on QQ all day reading very boring student essays.) That I believe is total fancy on the part of my Chinese students, but it is fun to chat about it.

I find it more interesting & instructive to discover what is permitted on Chinese media than what is not permitted (the latter is almost random, rarely justified, often temporary, possibly highly decentralised - particularly as most censorship is self-censorship.) What is permitted is more reflective of contemporary Chinese culture than what is banned.

Check out some of these bans in China:

My Favorite, China bans Time travel shows because no one can rewrite history other than the govt :)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1376771/Great-Scott-China-bans-time-travel-cinema-TV.html

You might have seen this parody of 中国话 about a year ago. Pretty scathing, but was immediately removed from Chinese websites when it released. I still couldn't find it on toudou or youku.

全球都笑中国傻 The whole world laughs at China's Idiocy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkPkeizBG-U

I couldn't find this one on the Chinese websites again. I remember it came out last summer and my friendin Beijing said it would only take 2 days for it to be "harmonized". And it was

Red Army Plays Beat it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSPtz7wVDHI

Another Classic was the Banning of World of Warcraft: The Wrath of the Lich King because the game contained images of blood and skeletons. But it didn't make much sense to me considering all my students also played Counter Strike where they would cheer at head shots all day. 爆头 for those who want to know :)

BUT!! not to sound completely doom and gloom, here's a great standup sketch from 大山. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzzpQWSU354 If you're around intermediate then you can probably understand it.

I think the issue with shows like South Park, Simpsons, Daily Show, Colbert Report, etc. is that we like to poke fun at our society, our government, and specific people in power. It's the kind of thing I think the Chinese govt would shy away from greatly.

Well they might have got off on the wrong foot wanting to take a red door [China's fav colour] and paint it black....otherwise taking everything and painting it black would be a big boost for paint manufacturers, painters and the like in that industry

No worries, hope I don't mis-lead too many people! Actually this discussion has caused me to reflect a bit and it just occurred to me that one (natural) assumption made by observers is that because they don't see something on Chinese TV it must be banned. Another possibility is that it is not there because the Chinese public doesn't want it. (Rating systems are highly developed here, the technology with cable makes it easier I understand.)

So my example of the Simpsons above - if The Simpsons rated through the roof in Chinese living rooms then it is my belief that it would be on every station (probably with several repeats during the day.) As foreigners we often can't conceive that Chinese people don't want to watch our classic entertainment products. Hell, I play my students the Rolling Stones classics and they just look at me like I'm an alien. What's wrong with them??*

* Ok, the Rolling Stones have very little to do with economics but I can find a connection.

thanks for these insights as always mate. Interesting

'state owned television stations'

Even this statement needs a little interpretation for foreigners. National CCTV stations, based in Beijing, are the closest to qualifying as 'state-owned'. They are heavily funded by taxes. However, the majority of stations, while 'state-owned' in name, are also pretty much self-funded. They operate commercially and have to find their own revenues. The CCP has an interesting role in the oversight of these commercial operations but it is more advisory than direct control. Think of it as 'default' - if everything goes along without a problem, they don't get involved.

The concept many foreigners have of a monolithic Chinese media is way off the mark. To put this in context I think that there are 15 national stations (correct me if I am wrong?) I have about 100 stations on the most basic home subscription and most of them are run as businesses. Then there are a host of other stations you can pay extra for, without counting community level TV in some parts of the country.

Hey epyon

I gather from this you live in China, Beijing? You seem to have all the facts and they are swimming around there but the message I get from you is a bit misleading for the average poddie who doesn't live in China.

The truth is that you can watch just about anything in China because the primary source of media is the internet and entertainment media on the internet is not closely monitored.

All those shows you mention are regularly viewed by Chinese people without censorship on-line. The fact you don't see them on regular TV is beside the point as .. as a friend who works in the media says often .. 'no one watches TV'. (He is particularly sensitive to this because his bonuses depend on ratings.) Some areas of Chinese media are closely monitored true, but there are several safety valves in the system - and in my view this is not an insignificant fact. It is the main point. The system here works that way by design. So in reality people can see pretty much whatever they like .. even that show discussed recently here in the Media lesson.

Also, about censorship .. big subject .. but it does not work like most foreigners earnestly believe. The truth is much more interesting. My mate produces one of those movie shows on TV and censorship as we understand it is rare. Most is self-censorship, and most of the effort goes into avoiding prosecution for using material they haven't paid the rights for. Actually there is a directive currently in place surrounding celebrations for the 90th anniversary of the CCP. Sex and violence is OK.

Even on TV I would say the 'censorship' here relating to violence and prime time is not as strong as in Australia.

BTW I'm curious why you would say that Simpsons would certainly be banned in China ..?? It's not on TV because it wouldn't rate and it is all about ratings in China. But the idea of it being banned is beyond me - it just wouldn't interest the average Chinese person.

Simpsons, South Park, Family Guy, etc, all those are great shows but for sure would be banned in China. Sure to us they are tame, and say a skit or stand up routine from comedian Dave Chappelle, George Carlin, Chris Rock, Etc would be guaranteed to be banned as well. Political, Sexual, even PG-13 in nature stuff here is just not acceptable for the state owned television stations. Hell, even when I saw Iron Man 2 in Beijing they edited the word "Russian" out of the movie. That is the level of censorship you're looking at. Of course there are other mediums out there, like online videos and it's great to see that Chinese have a sarcastic outlook at things too. Some of it is very tongue in cheek too. I’ve had many Chinese friends who were extremely funny and one that was very sarcastic.

I guess I shouldn’t say all comedy routines on TV are bad. I forgot about the New Years specials and from what I could understand from the skits, some were funny. There are also some really good comedy skits I’ve seen on youku from people in Beijing night clubs. But it seemed like when I was watching a lot of other skits on TV, they were pretty painful to watch at times. I guess it just takes time. That said though, there’s a reason that most all of my Chinese friends went online to places like youku and baidu to find translated versions of American, British, and Australian shows because they find the local broadcasting too boring.

Also I will also admit that American primetime comedy shows have nothing on shows like Peep Show. We still can't say F*ck on cable tv. Though I heard Australia Banned Mortal Kombat for PS3 and Xbox360. Lol I guess we all have our problems. In the US naughty language is bad, but over the top insane violence is fine :P.

I'm not at a level to appreciate those comedy routines so I don't even know what you mean by 'it was terrible'. I wonder if the concept of 'stand-up' is unlikely to take hold in China because it almost by definition lacks the kind of perfection required of Chinese performance. Ricky Gervais may be an exception - his stand-up is nearly perfect. Anyway, it might sit on the fringe of society (if it exists) like rock and roll and tattooing.

'can't have anything too risky'

I'm showing my ignorance about US comedy but what we get in Australia is pretty mainstream (Simpsons, SouthPark, King of the Hill, American Dad, Family Guy) - don't get me wrong I enjoy them, but there is nothing we get that is too risky as far as I know. But then we might have different ideas of 'risky' - are you talking politics? Innovative? I'm not sure.

Here's a question: something we define as 'risky' in our own society, is that so specific to our society that no-one else could possibly appreciate it? Actually, in your own society the majority don't want risky. (Unfortunately they want Two & a Half Men.)

Can you give us examples of risky US humour? I'd like to have a look..

Our home-grown humour is probably the riskiest I've seen anywhere so far - in the sense of gross, tasteless, non-politically correct, etc, (eg. Pizza) and even clever/innovative (Chris Lilley). But that is probably because, when it comes down to it, I will appreciate our own humour more than someone elses.) I guess that would reciprocate in the US, if your networks every bought anything from us.

是的， 因为女人非常喜欢危险，当然不喜欢打赌自己的生活，但是你的就行。也许女人不坏男人不爱也是对了。

顺便，我刚发现“吊胃口”是“吊”加“胃口“。很有意思的，因为吊也有俚语的意思。

“but all y'all better keep your hands off mah daughter" *cocks shotgun*”

哈哈，就是， 说得很好

而且，通常在这个情况下女儿吊胃口

both can be correct. Like "hey y'all! welcome home" and "Hey, all y'all just gonna stand there like that" or "Y'all are welcome to stay here, but all y'all better keep your hands off mah daughter" *cocks shotgun*

I believe "y'all" is often singular; "all y'all" is plural. But perhaps there is regional variation.

哈哈大笑

As in "Ya'll cousins and ya'll still got married, ain't that sweet, hey jobe, ain't that sweet. Yeah he says that's so sweet." ;)

"you" does indeed have a plural, and it's "ya'll."

I understand #31, but I guess that would make me a New Yorker (which I am not).

RJ here looks like Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxnhhvv_tYo

I will say that many Americans just don't share the same sense of humor that Australians and those from the UK have. I was shown Peep Show from a friend of mine and loved it. I tried showing it to my friends here when I got home and they all thought it was stupid. Same with the jokes in Top Gear, most of my friends just don't get them. Can't win them all I guess, but that's Number Wang :)

Those wacky Americans. Too bad Richard Glover doesn't look like anyone on Saturday Night Live.

Well, I read the original article and didnt have any trouble understanding it, nor did I find it offensive. I am weary of hearing about global warming though, so them wild birds you mentioned, I hope they pay Mr Glover a visit.

Time for my 3 min checkup, got to go.

Yes, I guess it is a little unfair to paint 'Americans' in general as capable of mis-reading Australian humour on the strength of a few thousand emails full of vituperative invective.

However, it would be hard to conclude that he, Glover, just 'doesn't get it'. He makes a good living from words (books, newspaper columns, radio show) - I would think that we can safely assume that he understands what he read. After all we do all speak English. What he is pointing to is that the American emails lacked any sense of understanding the humour employed. This does ring true to me - we have significant problems understanding each other's humour, particularly that of the Glover kind, satire.

I do think Richard got excited that so many people are now reading his column!

Incidentally, a Glover aside suitable for a language-learning web-site - he has made a name for himself making up words - words that should exist but don't. This is one part of his humour that I don't get into but lots of people do - most of his material seems to come from suggestions written by his fans and listeners. Examples:

Grating (gray' ting) noun. The tight, grim smile given to someone you pass for the fourth time in ten minutes in the office corridor, the first three meetings having already exhausted the 'Good morning', 'Working hard!', and the hilarious 'We must stop meeting like this.'

Testiculation (tes tik' yu' lay' shun) noun. The male habit of giving one's testicles a quick squeeze or prod at three-minute intervals throughout the working day, just to check they haven't suddenly disappeared, or been pecked off by wild birds.