Media level...is there a higher level?

thanks for this mate.I too have tended to relegate writing to the hols. I like your "happy student" comment. I think it's much more enjoyable with this approach.

Thanks for the link to your translation project.Cool.Is it mainly contemporary stuff? I'll have to check it out later. Have you seen the Poems with Pete podcasts here which dealt with Tang and Song dynasty poems?

Try here.

the kind of saying is popular today i think.

There's a great selection of dictionaries on the second floor of the book center kitty-corner from Teem Mall in Guangzhou, if anyone is located there...NOT in the "learn Chinese!" section aimed at foreigners, but nearby. Aisles and aisles of dictionaries. Bliss...

Pretty sure it must be available in Guangzhou, I got mine in HK. It's my favorite amongst all the Chinese dictionaries I've seen.

Thanks for the recommendation! I will keep my eyes open for that one.

From time to time I enjoy recommending the Tuttle Learner's Chinese-English Dictionary. It contains a wealth of the most frequently encountered Chinese words with lots and lots of example sentences. Sometimes I do just enjoy reading it like a book for half an hour or so. It's used in Pleco too.

There's a cut-down version and a longer version. It's great.

*sigh* Frequency should be indicated in any worthy dictionary.

I am jealous of your high quality dictionaries. I have never seen frequency indicated in a paper English-Chinese dictionary. And online dictionaries are not great for reading.

Good insights damon re extensive reading--I'm probably trying in vain to read way above my current level.

I have to say though, I really think your student's problem was not so much reading the dictionary as wanting to stock up on a lot of slang (and too early). That's never a good approach for language learners, whether or not it involves reading dictionaries. I advocate dictionary reading myself but not cover to cover. Frequency should be indicated in any worthy dictionary. Learners should just go over all the most frequently used terms first. I say it's not a waste of time, because the first time we encounter a 生词 isn't usually the time it sticks and becomes part of our vocab; something sticks only after it's recognized in a subsequent encounter. And if we've "read" it already in the dictionary, the first time we encounter it "in the wild" can actually be an opportunity for re-cognition (hey I know this word!).

thanks Damon.Good advice.The dictionary advice makes complete sense to me and I'm not going to read one cover to cover ever. Yeah,I'd be interested in seeing such Chinese readers if anyone has a link.

Ah! You know me so well...

was it orange by any chance?..when you were yourself that is

sounds handy for those around you...."xiaoxin dajia,orangina T xù biànchéng dao hongse !!"

No, it is true. Though I have to say fashion here in China makes what I remember from my childhood look pretty classy. But my hypercolor t-shirt was pretty cool.

Oh right! Please excuse me. That's really cool, that your dad is like that. More than made up I bet, for having had to grow up in the eighties (sorry no offense meant but really, that to me is a most unfortunate period in our cultural history. people with taste had nowhere to go.)!

啊哈哈！Well, according to your stated age range I will be eligible for 中年吧 in a few months, so mainly grew up in the eighties, but with an appreciation for fine things of all eras. I recently watched all of Rocky & Bulwinkle on Hulu... classic! And as far as the technology goes, my dad is a bit of a retro-geek. It is one of my favorite things about him.

Yes that is a great page! Of course the pictures are magical just in themselves ... but I do think the music and the irreverence of the words make the English powerful in a way the translations can't be--so maybe not!

I'm envious. How great, that you have a four-year-old bilingual friend who likes reading with you! Kids aren't just phenomenal learners, they're such great teachers aren't they, so kind (well maybe once they're a bit older like 5 or 6) and eager to share what they've learned with you. They cheer you on and genuinely delight in any success they see you having. Their enthusiasm is infectious ...

My four-year-old bilingual 小朋友 has 一条鱼 两条鱼 红色的鱼 蓝色的鱼 and he thinks the page with "I cannot hear you, and I know why. A mouse has cut the wire, goodbye!" is the bee's knees.

We read it together (in English, he doesn't have much patience for my Chinese) and he looked at the picture for a good thirty seconds, then burst out into laughter like it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard. Wonder if he would have laughed as hard if we'd been reading in Chinese...?

(wa Orangina did you grow up in the 70s too? I thought you were like, young, just really knowledgeable.) I bought a cassette tape player a couple of years ago actually, the littlest and cheapest one I could find, because a Chinese textbook I was using only had their audio material on cassette. The book was from post-2000. You wonder what the publishers were thinking. Then there's my ballet teacher who has never been online, she doesn't "do computers". When she gives us the music to practice for recital it's on MiniDisc (and she genuinely thinks MiniDiscs are the best thing ever to be invented)! I begged her to let me borrow the CDs but it's her policy or something and she wouldn't. So I had to go get a MiniDisc player for that (everybody else in the class apparently already had one), could barely find one three years ago. There are people out there whose lives may never be touched by MP3s, MP4s or iPods.

You've convinced me, it doesn't translate well. :)

Well, I remain skeptical... but I will give it a try. You are right, reading it in Chinese does not mean it isn't still there in English to enjoy.

My dad had Dr. Seuss stories on reel-to-reel tape and we used to listen to them when we would visit. They were voiced by some really famous voice actors of the 60's, including Marvin Miller (He did voices in Bullwinkle and the Pink Panther, among others.) As a gift when I was a teenager, my dad recorded it onto a tape cassette so I could have it to listen to on a more practical medium.... Oh dear!

Oh I was looking forward myself to Tal's Tales (your own real-life stories!) ...

呵呵，thanks for the encouragement fellas, looks like it's a goer. Snow White should be ready for the ball in a couple of days, so keep your eyes peeled.

Avatar? Hmmm....

Southern end?

Tales with Tal gets my vote, and the avatar, well how about the southern end of that monkey Tal is so fond of? (Although this may give Bodawei nightmares.) Readings by Raygo might work as well if you remember Tal's other pseudonym. But then what avatar?

ps I really like the name "tales with tal"...has a great ring to it. No biggie,but I'm thinking as the name is a little similar to your other famous group,I hope the avatar will be quite different so we don't get em mixed up.I also hope that the group avatars will appear on the left side of the converstions page so it's easy to navigate to them [instead of poddies avatars].Am I alone in this? I don't mind if everyone disagrees,but it'd be nice to get feedback here:

http://chinesepod.com/community/conversations/post/8498#comment-175687

Definitely up for it mate.You've reminded me...I had some really funny kids stuff myself I was reading a few months ago and I intended to do just that..translate some passages of it and post it..but promptly to forgot to do it.Aiyou,I just have too many plans on the go and thus get nowhere,hehe

For the magic of Seuss (Tal never a big fan? *gasp*) you need to read the English of course, but 《绿鸡蛋和火腿》 is one of the Chinese translations that worked the best it seems, because the language itself is very straightforward. I just had a look at my copy (bilingual, simplified characters) and once again was unexpectedly moved at the end! I also have 《穿袜子的狐狸》 and 《一条鱼 两条鱼 红色的鱼 蓝色的鱼》 which I hadn't really read yet, but I see now these are very good, we can learn not how to convey that nonsensical funniness in Chinese, but how to say very basic things, like

Hello there, Ned. / How do you do? / Tell me, tell me / what is new? / How are things / in your little bed? / What is new? / Please tell me, Ned.

I do not like / this bed at all. / A lot of things / have come to call. / A cow, a dog, a cat, a mouse. / Oh! what a bed! Oh! what a house!

* The rhyme and rhythm get lost in the translation. As far as I can see only the names are transliterated, like "Ned" in the excerpt above, "Nook", etc. and not all names are transliterated. A "Yop" for instance, in the Chinese is called a 跳跳. I look at it this way Orangina--we're privileged, to be able to read Seuss in English and get every bit of that delightful nonsense. Then with the translations we don't get to learn how to spew forth that kind of magical nonsense in Chinese, but we do get to learn how to say basic things in Chinese correctly and colloquially. （＾ｖ＾）

Ok, so you phonetically transliterate the nonsense word, and translate the real word? Do you disregard the rhyme, or change the nonsense word to rhyme with the chinese translation of the real english word? I see this as being fraught with ethical dilemmas.

I was never a big fan of Seuss, but you've reminded me that there are a couple of lessons on that theme here on Cpod, The Cat in the Hat and Green Eggs and Ham.

Incidentally the other day in Walmart I bought a cute little collection of Grimm's Fairy Tales in Chinese (格林童话) and today for fun (!) I've been transcribing one (白雪公主). I'm planning to post a link here soon for everyone to enjoy it with me, so look out for it. Come to think of it, there might even be the makings of a new User Group in it. Tales with Tal, what do you think, anyone up for it?

Phonetically. It definitely loses something in translation, but still...it's Dr.Seuss!! In Chinese!! I need to pick up another copy of my all-time favorite, Mr. Brown Can Moo! to brush up on my Chinese animal sounds...

呵呵。The thing with Seuss, is that much of it is not English. How do you translate 乱话？

hi orangina

I did a 'review' of the Cat in the Hat as a speaking test way back when at university in Sydney, essentially just reciting the story in my own words, holding the book in my hand as a prop, showing the pictures. I don't have it any more (storage?) but I think it was published in Taiwan so it has the Taiwanese pronunciation guide. This is when I learnt the character 戴 as in 戴上帽子. :)

And, yes, I can remember that some things do not translate well. Actually anything particularly funny in English does not translate well. But it was easier than trying to recite the story of Xi You Ji!

I simply do not understand how Dr Seuss is translated! I will have to find one and take a look, but I just don't believe it.

Thanks Jen for 十万个为什么, I will have to look for that.

Another book that some learners might enjoy reading for practice is called十万个为什么 shi2wan4ge4 wei4shen2me. It's a book for children, pretty widely available at bookstores throughout China. It has both simplified characters and pinyin...which could be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on one's level. Even if you're past pinyin, though, it's still an interesting read.

I think that Tintin (and Dr Seuss) are popular with foreign learners because the context, and humour, is familiar. But I can't speak for all foreign learners. Much less Chinese taste in comics. 'Original' Chinese comics have a culture difference that makes them that much more challenging. Easier than Xi You Ji but still challenging.

nothing against tin tin,but no Chinese original comics that are popular?

I will look for them, thanks a lot!

Try 丁丁历险记 Ding Ding lixian ji (Les Adventures De Tintin). Translation of the famous French stories. A popular series among learners at around Intermediate level. You should be able to buy these at any good bookshop in the West that carries Chinese titles. Or in Shanghai.

Not exactly comics, but if you go into any Chongqing Carpenter Tan Handicrafts shop - the 'comb' shop - you should find their series of small illustrated books - free to anyone that asks. Stories like 'advice for health' - quirky and not too difficult to read.

Any store like 家乐福，好又多 etc usually has a book section with an array of kids comics. Some Japanese comic characters are popular - translated into Chinese.

bodawei, what comics do you read, where do you buy them?

This releases politicians from election driven thinking and permits long term strategic planning

...well there's something to be said for that,a definite problem in our society.

Sounds like an interesting book then.Thanks RJ :)

RJ - thanks, I should get the book but I haven't seen it in English (see my comment elsewhere that my Chinese reading stops at comics and newspapers.) I am always trying to understand more of the process of government broadly speaking, down to the election of class monitors. And having to adjust my understanding. It is hard for a foreigner to learn about this 'flow of ideas' he is talking about.

Living here it is evident to me that there is often quite enlightened thinking, sometimes (often?) stymied by local politics and self-interest. But I also like the bold steps taken in China - eg. big thinking in developing infrastructure. Things you don't see often in a 'horizontal democracy'.

Well the short answer is that in China personal accountability is not as important as relationships with the people around you. Politics is not run by rival parties but by consensus in a top down, bottom up process. The leadership frames a broad concept for the society as a whole that incorporates bottom up ideas. This releases politicians from election driven thinking and permits long term strategic planning with a constant flow of ideas up and down the hierarchy. Top down strategies are supported by bottom up participation.

For me it was enlightening to note that the leadership in China actually made a conscious decision to encourage people to switch from subordinate thinking to emancipated thinking. A process that is ongoing.

RJ. It is in the bookshops here in China, in Chinese of course. You could do a compare and contrast. :)

I've heard him speak but really forgotten anything he said. Can you elaborate on a 'vertical democracy'? Is that one where everyone knows their place?

thanks for that mate. Yeah, I was wondering what the second photo was all about so thanks for explaining. Yeah,would seem incongruous,which would add to the appeal...love stuff out of the ordinary like that so thanks for posting it.

In the top photo yes; this place 火焰山 is described in the book Journey to the West (it is on the Silk Road.) The bottom photo (50 - 80 km away) is in fact a snow boarder, also on the Silk Road, but I don't think that there are any snowboarding references in Journey to the West - I threw the photo in because it kind of looks like Monkey (you have to use your imagination!) Also because it is totally incongruous - it is hot desert country with snow capped mountains, and nearby there is ice on the ground, lots of it. With the temperature maybe in the mid 30s you are walking around surrounded by snow that has hardened into ice. (I don't get it, but I also saw this in 长白山 - the ice takes an awful long time to melt.)

oh cool. I take it these are your pics from your recent travels. That's great.hehe,yeah I love that it was just popping up in the middle of the desert.Was it on the route they were meant to have taken?

I consider myself tweaked.

红楼梦 is a "chick flick"?!? Err... sorry, can't take that seriously.

Havent heard of 水滸傳? Every male in China has read this. And you really need to let that monkey thing go :-). I only mentioned it to tweak Tal :-)

I am referring here to the distance between written and oral Chinese

...gotcha.I guess it comes down to knowing just that about the material you're reading...what is it's relationship to currently spoken Chinese...which bits are transferable and which aren't,which of course may be very difficult if not impossible to tease out.I guess I would conclude that it's important to be aware of this gap [as changye has pointed out in the past as well] and thus not to automatically transfer it over,that it's not the most efficient path by any stretch to oral fluency,but that if one is cautious I don't think it can harm and if one does then strike something in oral Chinese vocab wise for example that one has read than it has helped a bit.

RE: I don't think that reading this stuff improves your Chinese fluency

Your comment: ...really? Even a modern version? I would have thought it would help though.

I am referring here to the distance between written and oral Chinese (covered elsewhere I think by Changye.) This does assume a connection between 'oral' and 'fluency'. I suppose that there could be some sentence constructions in a modern version of Xi You Ji that are helpful - but ... I may read classic English literature to improve my written expression; I think I have, doesn't it show?. ;) I wouldn't go to Xi You Ji to improve my Chinese.

outlaws of the marsh is definitely the best. This was Mao's favorite. San guo is also good. Hong lou meng is a chick flick. Women like this book. And you know what I think of our monkey king.

yeah,I have struck the high cost of getting stuff sent before including from HK .Yep,I'm gonna try hard and get there one day.

I also thought that you might find some reading material at Chinatown in Brisbane?

I have looked there before about a year ago and was surprised to find that there was nothing to find as far as I could tell.There was one store that seemed to have mostly Korean stuff.Also had no luck in Sunnybank, but I'm not sure I covered everything there.

Do you have a Kinokuniya in Brissie?

..no,I had to get some Japanese manga sent from the Sydney store late last year. I actually rang them and was very impressed with the service.It looks like an awesome store too from what I can make out from the internet.Actually it's a good reminder though mate if I do venture down that way sometime.

well probably just because I've heard so much more about the other 3 [and as Bodawei points out ..the cultural references] I would have put that 4th on my list,but it's cool to hear your recommendation. Sounds worth a look then.

水浒传 【also called water margin] is one of the 4 Chinese Classic novels. Actually I also had only heard of the other 3 until I saw it mentioned in this lesson here:

http://chinesepod.com/lessons/the-monkey-king/vocabulary

and then I think sometime later [my guess is it was about a year ago] I have a feeling there was a lesson on it,but either I'm getting mixed up or the search function isn't helping me too much

A rough guide is that the thinner the book the easier the Chinese.

...that would have been my guess,but it's nice to have one's suspicions confirmed.

Yes, some are written in a more modern style.

..cool.I'll have to get researching then,and see if I can find it online.

I will stick to the TV series Monkey. :)

...well I've said this here before,but I loved that show.Didn't know you were a fan too.

I don't think that reading this stuff improves your Chinese fluency

...really? Even a modern version? I would have thought it would help though.

you can enjoy it for what it is

..oh,I agree with this mate.I don't believe in voluntarily reading stuff you don't enjoy.

there are Journey to the West references everywhere

..yeah ,I'm aware of that and have struck many of them myself.

Hey RJ Baby, Who are you calling a rude monkey?!

Yeah rude. And in our family we have no fond feelings towards monkeys at all. Haven't heard of that other one you mention, but I have no real aspirations to read anything more testing than the newspaper.

Cost is a thing to be considered - I sent a 5 RMB DVD back the other day; it cost 30 RMB to post. A standard letter is 6 RMB. You would probably get a couple of comics for 30 - 50 RMB postage. To scan the comics and email would probably end up about the same, and that would be illegal. :) You just going to have to pay a visit Barbs. I also thought that you might find some reading material at Chinatown in Brisbane? Do you have a Kinokuniya in Brissie?

I have read the english version of Journey to the west. To me he is just a rude monkey. :-) I much preferred 水滸傳 (outlaws of the marsh).

There are a number of different 'Journeys' to the West. Various abridged versions and children's versions. A rough guide is that the thinner the book the easier the Chinese. Yes, some are written in a more modern style. To my mind they are still difficult because I keep on asking 'why?' I will stick to the TV series Monkey. :)

What else - I don't think that reading this stuff improves your Chinese fluency. But you can enjoy it for what it is. And there are Journey to the West references everywhere. Even here in the middle of the desert, said to record the highest temperatures in mainland China:

Hmmm - can't put photos in, will have to make a separate post. Kind of loses the flow, but stay with me?

just had a better squiz at it.Brilliant.This is just what one needs. They do it paragraph by paragraph with pinyin and translation.Bookmarked it. I'm gonna give it a shot. I hope to see more of this sort of thing on the net. Anyone got any Chinese originals on the net?

oh yeah,thanks tal. It was more modern Chinese well written literature [originally written in Chinese by Chinese] that I was looking for.However that looks awesome too. Yeah,I remember zhen and you discussing it before,but I'd forgotten to follow up on it so thahnks for reminding me. Thanks for the link also which makes it easier to access. So handy that it's online too.

It's been mentioned here before mate, but there's online Alice in Wonderland at nciku.

blurb on a bottle of soft drink. Or the saying on a billboard.

..I guess the same thing happens in Chinese as it does in English advertising...a lot of artistic license and distortion of the language for dramatic effect...to make people remember etc. Wasn't there a DA or early lesson anyway on how careful people have to be in marketing because of all the homonyms etc and potential secondary unwanted meanings?

definitely easier to achieve a high standard of reading

...I think you are likely right,though presumably there is some variation between individuals.Of course there have been uneducated natives in each language who can speak fluently but can't read or write.But that's a different story altogether.

For me, spoken fluency is the most rewarding.

..I agree.Much as I love reading books, when it comes to Chinese,it can't compete with that social interaction.

Otherwise it becomes disheartening if you only understand 10% of what is written without resorting to dictionaries.

..and very quickly I'm sure. Thus,I'd love to have a ebook ...something I could access on the computer and then use rollover tools in the main. Anyone know a good source of a modern classic that can be read online?

For me, I still find the many comics available challenging enough.

...I'd love to get my hands on some comics,kids books etc.Trouble is here in Brisbane it just doesn't seem to be available without ordering from o/s via the net. But I guess I must look into that sometime.I think it's likely an expensive exercise due to the cost of shipping.

bodawei,

been wondering where you've been mate.Good to see you back.Thanks for this.I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment,but I'll just quickly say this.I've been meaning to read Journey to the West for some time and have every intention of doing so.However,given hennings helpful comment about Dream of Red Mansions [chamber] being more different from modern Chinese than Shakespeare is from Modern English [and Journey to the west is much older],I don't think I'll bother with tackling it in Chinese ,but rather English [unless maybe there was a modernhua[ised] version of it,or maybe even a kiddie version written recently...unless that's what you're hinting it...is the abridged stuff still written in the old style?].

yeah,perhaps like a shift in the bell curve between cultures.An outrageous Chinese person might be like someone who's par for the norm here,hehe ;)

I agree with you,everyone's individual. So I didn't mean all,I was listing the difference between the cultures.

I thought you might say something along those lines. Do you really think that 1.4 billion or the best part thereof follow this stereotype? Is it as cut and dried as that? I'm just curious...you'd know better than me and thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter.It's amazing the degree of influence culture has on character. Seems to me from what I've seen of Western culture everyone's individual and we have all types.I can't agree that westerners all fit the "sensibility" mould [but maybe viewed through Eastern eyes we do appear more homogenous and also it's all relative to the reserve you profess]

Do you mean any thoughts re. 洗脑/brainwash?

yep,and agreed,seems more than a coincidence.

Agree with what you say about 俗语 and thanks for that word.However,I also love it when you have a distinctly Chinese saying.Often underlying concepts are similar but they can have a unique way of expressing them. I do love the stuff that's different though.

Have you ever watched the BBC TV miniseries:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/prideandprejudice/

..so well made.Hilarious and fantastic dialogues. Nah,gotta admit,I love it.

I've seen those books in the bookstore and had a peek and thought it looked funny. I'd love to find the version you speak of.

I never read Roots, but I did see the TV series, which impressed me greatly as a child.

...I think I only saw snippets of the TV series as a kid.When I read the book as a young adult I then had to go back and find that TV series which I greatly enjoyed.Very moving ,and I cheered along with the main character in the end.

i see.thanks tal!

I am a reserved one!

含蓄 = reserved.

e.g. Chinese people are more reserved than westerners about expressing deep emotion.

It's generally quite true, but there are 含蓄 westerners out there.

ok,let me try in English.

Generally speaking,Sence is the way how Easten people treat love,Just like the elder sister in the novel Sence and Sensibility. While Westen people would prefer to choose be more "Sensibility"when he or she founds someone worth to love. They may just speak it out. But the traditional Easten people may be a little more含蓄(han2xu4),they just keep the words in heart.

ps.how do you say 含蓄 in English?

Do you mean any thoughts re. 洗脑/brainwash? I think that can't be a coincidence, just too similar. But certainly proverbs and 俗语 seem to reflect ideas and concepts common to people everywhere, so it's often not difficult to find equivalents of the same one in many languages.

呵呵，Jane Austen. I'm afraid I've always been to Austen as orangina is to the Great Gatsby. I have such an antipathy that I never managed to get through a single one of her books, and bluffed my way through the module on the 19th century novel at 大学 by relying heavily on those little books of 'Pass Notes for Students' that various publishers do!

ps care to expand on this?:

it is just like the ways of Western people and Eastern people do when facing love

hehe,yeah it's great when the poddies get a rollicking good convo rolling.

ps I agree. Jane Austen was a wonderful novelist.

wow,thank you so much for all this useful discussion.And yes Zhen you are right,i am not alone.hehe.

I thought my biggest problem in The Great Gasby is that I still wonder did FitzGerald want to express such ideas like"Gasby is the only guy who had been long for the true love among the other people including Tom,Daisy."

And thanks for the information about American Literatrue,I have known that i still have a long way in this.

I 've tried the English version of Mark Twain and Dickens,but all failed at last.

I like Pride and Predudice! And Sence and Sensibility,too. I find it very interesting that we can see two different ways to express your feelings in Sence and Sensibility,and it is just like the ways of Western people and Eastern people do when facing love.

Hey tal,

remarkable how many of these thoughts and ideas have equivalents in many languages, proof (if any were needed) that all humans are fundamentally similar in the way they feel and reason.

...it was funny seeing you write this last night because I've been meaning in the last couple of days to make a comment here:

http://chinesepod.com/lessons/love-tangle-6#comment-175210

..which as you will see is along similar lines to what you're saying.I held off because I haven't had a chance to listen to the whole lesson yet and wanted to make sure I wasn't just repeating something that was said in the discussion of the podcast,but as you've raised the topic,I thought,what the heck I'll post it now. Yeah,I agree its amazing how the same concepts often pop up ,sometimes seemingly independently in different cultures [though even in ancient times I guess it's difficult to exclude how much these ideas could have travelled].I do think it underlines a common humanity. I do think though in the example I'm referring to,the fact that the concept was expressed in the same terms strikes me as more than a coincidence.Any thoughts?

Cool! I'll look out for it myself.

A friend's 10 year old daughter introduced me to them while we were on a vacation. I read her copy one evening and it was pretty clever! So when I saw the dual language version here I had to get book one. (I think there are four?) By Jeff Kinney. It also has little margin notes in both the English and Chinese side, meant for English learners, but good for me! I do think whichever one it was I read before was a bit better than book one, but I'm happy.

呵呵，我也是。I still stick with pretty basic stuff for reading practice. Never heard of that Wimpy Kid, sounds interesting.

哈哈！我喜欢！Perhaps one day when I have time floating around unused I will have another try.... but I doubt it. :-) Good thing there is more than one author in the world.

Back to Baba's original question... I have bought "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" in a dual language edition... Hardly the greatest literature of our day but a well written kid's book. I was very proud to almost understand the first page. When I checked the english side though, I had missed the overall point. But then I am hardly at a point where I am concerned about what is beyond Media!

Spot on, jiangcheng. (That means you're quite right!) In fact it's remarkable how many of these thoughts and ideas have equivalents in many languages, proof (if any were needed) that all humans are fundamentally similar in the way they feel and reason.

There's a collection of these sayings in Chinese with English equivalents here for those interested.

多谢你的确认

晚安长夜

I know one corresponding English saying......."One man's meat is another man's poison." Am I right?

That's basically it mate. The literal meaning is something like: Turnip, cabbage. Some like one, some like the other!

晚安，changye.

It's strange. I found that I double posted and deleted one. Then, both disappeared. I don't know why. Good night, guys.

Is that like a chengyu mate [or double chengyu]? I've seen it before [ I think it may even have been you]. I guess it means ...each to their own...horses for courses,deng deng.

Yeah me too. And the thing is I agree with Tal about Fitzgerald. I adore his writing--but I consider him a master of the short story. A collection of his short stories will always be among my Top 10 (English) books. Have you read any? Found those painful to get through too?

Anyway suansuanru--you are not alone here! In fact, many people who read English as their first language don't "get" Gatsby!

萝卜白菜，各有所爱！

Pride and Prejudice.

other than the pain, and that these people didn't interest me in the least......Though he is one of the authors that broke me of the idea that once a book is started it must be finished, so for that I thank him!

lol !

hehe,yeah,maybe the reason I don't recall it so clearly is that it was so painful that I've had to block the pain.

... and I have always liked Shakespeare. But then, Shakespeare is not so high-minded as he is often made out to be. He tells simple stories with a nice turn of phrase. Perhaps a difficult turn of phrase because of language changes over time... I don't remember much about my experience with Fitzgerald other than the pain, and that these people didn't interest me in the least.

Though he is one of the authors that broke me of the idea that once a book is started it must be finished, so for that I thank him!

hehe,I was the same with Shakespeare. School for me was very good at turning you off things [but of course a great teacher is gold and can really inspire you and ignite a fire in you and all that...just depends on the luck of the draw].I "discovered" Shakespeare of my own accord a few years after school and was amazed at how good he was and wondered why I hadn't discovered him earlier.

I remember that movie, classic film. The movie, just like the book, was good at creating certain scenes and images that seem to stay with you forever, (e.g. the scene where they throw all of Gatsby's expensive shirts around the room.)

I never read Roots, but I did see the TV series, which impressed me greatly as a child. (There was some controversy about the author misrepresenting facts as I recall.)

Dickens was a great storyteller, (and a terrible snob - lol), but I find his language a little too convoluted in that very Victorian way for my taste!

What don't you like about it? I used to have feelings like that about Shakespeare when I was first 'exposed' to him, later I understood why he was so great. Perhaps in the end reading a book and getting something from it is a subjective experience.

I have tried to read The Great Gatsby and just cannot do it... I find it very trying.

you know what mate? I have a confession.I don't clearly remember reading the Great Gatsby.I do clearly remember watching the movie [and Robert Redford and Mia Farrow ] at school as part of our study of the book at school and I think I probably read it also [ I know I was meant to]...I have a vague notion that I did but it was a very long time ago.Seeing what you've written,I should give it another look.

As for Uncle Tom's Cabin,that was also a long time ago [though in this case only about 25 years ago]. I don't recall how good or otherwise I thought it was in terms of a work of fine literature,but what I do strongly recall is the impression it had on me,how much I both enjoyed reading it and was moved by it,and as you allude to ,the power of the novel.Roots is another Novel probably in a similar class.I don't recall it for it's high level of language,but rather for it being a very moving tale.

As far as novels that are fine pieces of literature are concerned I have read some Dickens which has been extremely well written for example.I think what I've read there would be hard to better.

If I had to make a list of the 10 English novels which have left the deepest impression on me, The Great Gatsby would certainly be on the list. Why is it a masterpiece?

One reason is the prose style, Fitzgerald writes like a dream. Perhaps this is something only a native speaker of English can appreciate. Translating great literature into another language changes it, perhaps reduces it. I have known Chinese people to refuse to consider that Tang poetry may still be beautiful when translated into English.

Another reason is simply that Fitzgerald was an artist, able to express the tragedy of life and still make it a thing of beauty.

Sorry baba, Uncle Tom's Cabin may have sparked off the US Civil War, but great literature it is not.

Ok,I could be shot down for saying this,and as a caveat maybe I was too young to appreciate it at the time [or maybe just because it was "forced" reading by school] but it never struck me as being all that either.But there are plenty of other fantastic American novels.One of my all time favourites was "Uncle Toms Cabin" .Maybe you could try some of Mark Twains works also,but that's just the tip of the iceberg of American literature of course.

good point.

Yes. I also am "choosing" to learn it, as I can't follow students' grammar questions. CPod won't translate for us "dummies"(maybe just me) that can't read chinese, even on good questions.

I don't think it is a choice. At least for me, it is the combination of reading and listening that pushes me forward (slightly).

..I agree.For me they go hand in hand too.If I hear a new word I have to see it in writing before I have a sense of accepting it and owning it.

You need to "inhale" some South Park for that :P

...nice turn of phrase henning ,I like it.

RJ,

I'm greedy and want both,but have no idea if it will ever become a reality.I do intend to just stick at it though and continue to enjoy the ride.At a pinch,if forced to choose though I think I'd rather be able to follow tv and movies than read.

btw I love the image you conjure though of reading Kongzi in the rocking chair.I'd love to join you mate ,and as we'll both be a bit deaf I'll have to yell every few lines " Hey RJ,whaddya make o' this mate ?"

Cheers :)

I wonder if the number of westeners who can enjoy Confucius in their rocking chair is more than single-digit. Some journey to draw joy from, there.

Besides that, I don't think it is a choice. At least for me, it is the combination of reading and listening that pushes me forward (slightly). Most of my English vocab I acquired from reading - but that doesn't deliver the feeling for the language. You need to inhale some South Park for that :P

thanks changye.Good reminder..I think I've seen him mentioned on these boards before this thread [was there even a lesson on him?].This wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Xun

says:

"Considered by many to be the founder of modern Chinese literature, he wrote in baihua (白話) (the vernacular) as well as classical Chinese."

...I'd like to work out which were written in the vernacular [or did he mix the two in the same piece?] and find them online.

Yeah,short would be good.

Hi bababardwan

I recommend you read classic essays by 鲁迅 (Luxun), for example, as a starter. They are humorous (but authentic), and most importantly, very short.

I agree changye.That's why I'm particularly interested in good online sources.Know any?

Hi bababardwan

The best way for you is to read on-line materials using Chinese-perakun. Actually, reading paper books with the help of a dictionary is a very tough job.

多谢你的建议

“近20年来,中国都没有可以称得上"大师"的作家了....悲哀~”

是可惜

I'm with you rjberki! While I may be moving home soon, I'm finding it increasingly important to be able to read as well. Afterall, I can't rely on my chinese wife all the time, and when I need a bus.... the stops never have Pinyin, only once on the Bus (when you learnt you are wrong!) do you find readable words.

有啊,太多了...不过你喜欢什么文风的,还有,有的比较难读懂的,你大概要什么程度的?我个人最喜欢的作家是钱钟书.鲁迅的也很好,不过近20年来,中国都没有可以称得上"大师"的作家了....悲哀~

hey mate,do you have any modern classics,or modern fine works of Chinese literature you can recommend?

Thanks for confirming this mate.

Henning,

even further apart from modern Chinese than Shakespeare is from colloquial modern Englisch

..oh right.Thanks for that insight.I thought there would likely be some difference but I didn't realise it was that great,esp given that Shakespeare is closer to twice as long ago.

Each sentence took me as much as an entire Advanced dialogue.

wa! So I guess it was hard to find a good resource for the old words,plus I guess the grammar and style has changed which must have further obscured the meaning.If it was that hard then all I can say is what a champ you are for sticking at it as long as you did then. I have read an English translation of the book. To be brutally honest I can't say it rocked my socks [no disrespect intended. I suspect I might be better suited to the 3 other classics more ] but maybe there were fine nuances that were lost in translation.In fact I strongly suspect that to be the case and that being able to extract the meaning from the Chinese may have been a revelation in itself.But having read the English translation which I think would be an advantage in trying to follow it with the aid of your helpful analysis I must find the time sometime when I'm feeling energised to have a look at your posts there.I hope they weren't lost in the recent system change?

I left Flatland and entered Spaceland. If you really have some time, I would encourage you to do it.

...cool. I like the sound of that. Thanks for your encouragement. Well ,yeah,if I can I'll try and take a proper look at your group on it if possible.That would be my starting point. In fact that was obviously such a sterling effort that I'd like to nominate it for resurrection and highlighting in the next N&F.

reading news is really simple compared to reading even simple novels.

..ah right,thanks for answering that question.Even simple novels hey? Well I wouldn't have guessed that,but I suppose it stands to reason.News is often pretty formulaic whereas a novel is usually quite an individual work of art that will have its own style,themes,tangents,creativity,etc. Oh right,I see you have chengyu and specific/rare vocab and emotional expressions as the main factors. Yes,well this is confirming my point about media generally avoiding higher level vocab,etc,and that this occurs in Chinese media as well.

confidence boost. Those computer science nerds do not tend to include any of the above mentioned obstacles in their language.

..lol :)

Thanks mate ,I appreciate it. :)

I agree with this completely ."reading news is really simple compared to reading even simple novels. "

Thanks changye, that's all very interesting and informative,particularly to get the comparison to English:

distance between colloquial and written styles in Chinese is a little larger that that in English

I think it's really worth trying to challenge.

...I agree.

improving reading skills is easier than improving conversational ones.

...well that stands to reason.Spoken language is subject to confounding factors such as accent,speed,pronunciation,volume,hearing,distractions [eg background noise],and you generally get one shot at it,whereas reading has it all set before you clearly and you can take it at your own pace and refer to resources.

Thanks mate.If you do come across some good works of literature on the net,be a chum and post a link here if you get the chance.Cheers :)

"It is your attitude not your aptitude that determines your altitude."

..good saying mate.I agree.

"I didn't pay one pence to learn English,and I started it almost 2 years ago,I totally taught myself,and I am able to read The Economist or The Time with some help of dictionary work.

..are you kidding? ..that's pretty amazing !

I oppose those who hold this viewpoint,"If I spend a lot of money on it,I must succeed"

..agreed.Though to take CPod as an example,I think spending some money can certainly make things a lot easier if you find a good resource such as this,but certainly motivation is paramount.

try to recite the whole dictionary.

..once again,are you kidding? wow,you are ambitious. I believe in aiming high,but this I will not be doing [unless I can find a very very small dictionary,hehe]

how should one define 'fluency'?

..yeah very good question mate.I found myself pondering the same thing some time back. When folk learn that you are learning Mandarin it is often the one of the first questions they ask...are you fluent? I always have no hesitation in saying that I am a very far way from it.But it also struck me how it seemed that in the questioners mind it was clearly defined but how this was a very hazy notion in my mind. No doubt there would be a wide degree of variance in what it would mean amongst others I feel.

not necessary to achieve fluency

..yeah,I certainly don't think being able to follow great literature will be necessary for fluency and nor is it my aim.I was just curious and think it would be nice to look at some contemporary excerpts just for edification. I think being able to follow media, and have conversations with the man on the street so to speak will be my yardstick and dream one day,though I'm more journey than destination focused.

if you already have the ability to get into that

...no ,far from being able to follow media at this stage but it's nice to have a peak into the future occasionally and just see where it's at ,what the level is like and maybe even stretch oneself in a major way sometimes....good exercise.

Upper Intermediate

..actually I find this level ok to follow.Now if I could only remember all that stuff esp when it comes to the construction side of things then I'd be very happy.I agree,if one could have conversations that were conducted at this level then I think that'd be great.But for me there seems to be a huge gap between being able to follow such a lesson and conduct conversations at that level.Also ,this site has the luxury of replay buttons,and all those tools set in front of you that make it so much easier.Still very necessary for learning ,but I think thats at least partly accounts for what one can follow here and how one goes in the wild.Of course I think that it's a case of plugging away here and then continuing to practice/practice/practice in the wild and eventually that goal should be obtainable.Oh yeah,I've just read on [was replying on the fly] and see you've just said the same thing.

Thanks tal for this mate. :)

That was an amazing article.You are so right,tal_.On talking of that Chinese classic,the "Dream of Red Mansions",only a small percentage of Chinese college students have ever read through the whole book.( BTW,I read through the 'three kingdoms' for at least 10 times,it's a must-read for teenage boys according to the previous generation.) Due to the influence of Information Technology,handwriting became less often among the young generation.Just take a close look at what Chinese young students are reading now,you will find it's not literature or other meaningful books,but low-quality vulgar novels full of unrealistic love stories or animations.

In my philosophy,what foreign language learning really needs is your attitude,a saying goes like this,"It is your attitude not your aptitude that determines your altitude."I didn't pay one pence to learn English,and I started it almost 2 years ago,I totally taught myself,and I am able to read The Economist or The Time with some help of dictionary work.

I oppose those who hold this viewpoint,"If I spend a lot of money on it,I must succeed"

Totally expose yourself to this language and try to recite the whole dictionary.