Let's talk SRS

http://blog.sartak.org/2010/01/on-learning.html

is a good article about SRS-ing and usage of Anki.

As far as the sentence decks I have go, I am happy to share with anyone if CPod okays it.

I have to tell you that there is no sound. I haven't bothered to figure that part out. 

Well, querido, that's very interesting. Studying mandarin definitely requires various attacks on many fronts. There is just so much to master. Flashcards are only one tool, of course. I reinforce my flashcard study with the audio tapes of the sentences. And also the wonderful lessons on CPod. Without the lessons explaining word usage and grammar some of the sentences make no sense! I'm working up my ability and courage to have chats with native speakers.

This community is very inspiring. I find I am more motivated to study after reading other folks' thoughts on how they approach their own studies.

Somewhere, between the initial memorization and the later real language usage, there is a breakdown in the logic and wisdom of flashcarding.

At the short-term end, these programs seem extremely good. At the long end, the item in effect graduates out of the daily routine- 人 at 2+ years is not a problem. In the middle is the morass of items recognizable with effort. As the deck grows and this burden increases, it becomes more obvious that some "real language" program is necessary, for example simply reading and listening to the materials from which the deck was build. Let's say this should have been done all along. So, the flashcards will graduate quickly, *but not because we've stretched the memory* a la the algorithm/theory, but because we're seeing the items periodically. I see 人 dozens of times a day = the 2+ year interval is nonsense. So, a reading/listening program renders the algorithm nonsensical.

人 eventually doesn't matter, but the thousands of reps of the partially-remembered items, when instead I could be reading/listening, is a huge problem. Should there be a cutoff/graduation/suspension of items? With enough supplementary reading the items are *eventually* effortless enough, but *until then*, they are a workload of "reading" in the form of flashcards. My opinion is that this is unnecessarily punitive. So, yes they should.

Someone might reply that with the whole-sentence method, one is reading all along. Yes, maybe it is a practical compromise, but it looks like just one step that suggests more, as follows:

As a brand-new newbie, dissect everything into tiny bits as necessary. As soon as something becomes readable/listenable, put it on a schedule to do exactly that- real reading/listening. What should the schedule look like? A graduated-interval scheduling would be nice!

[Begin extra credit assignment] Take some large body of text and/or audio. Parse it recursively. (The fullest solution would parse all the way down into strokes/phonemes.) Generate flashcards of the leaves. As the smallest bits are mastered, back up to the parent. Make a flashcard of the parent, suspending the leaves. Continue. In the end, the entire original work is scheduled for reading/listening. Implement this and be rich and famous. [end]

I have a practical idea too for graduated-interval scheduling of whole texts. My first try mixed such cards into the deck. They interrupted the routine. So, make a separate deck. It would have cards assigning the reading/listening of whole texts- whatever you're capable of. Then you could suspend all of its constituent bits in the main deck. Keeping strict track of the details of this leads to the algorithm above, but it doesn't have to be that complicated: If in your readings you can't understand something, unsuspend the item, maybe, or just look it up and say "ah, I knew that".

Conclusion: For the initial memorization to intervals up to (a few days? 30 days?), flashcard programs are powerful tools, but the learner should be reading/listening to real language as soon as possible. Then the cards for the "bits" of the readings/listenings could be, and I argued above should be, suspended. I haven't actually done this yet. This being a new year, I might try it now. Doing more "real language" is why I joined CPod.

matthiask,

A HSK pack sounds really useful too.It could be a good way of testing where we're at at the same time.I'll have to check that out.Thanks :)

I would join in, if allowed.

So far I found this HSK Sentences pack and it seems quite funny (though not perfect, found already a pinyin mistake in the first 20 sentences.

Very good!

Sure linda.I'll respect whatever they decide and get back to you,and thanks for your generous offer.

bababardwan,

Sounds good to me. Do you mind doing the checking with CPod? I would be happy to share my decks. I have two decks of sentences so far. I'm planning to add to the second deck because it is kind of short. 

linda_b,

I copy sentences from the dialogue or expansion sections of Cpod

..this does sound like a great idea.There are so many sentences in CPod though that it would be a gargantuan effort for one person,so I wonder if we could start a group where such Anki decks could be shared amongst fellow users.I think before such sharing though ,it would be best to check with CPod whether this was ok or not[I'm not suggesting this is necessary for an individual..I'm only referring to being sensitive about sharing their resources in a potentially public domain..I think it important to protect their intellectual property].Better still,it would be great if CPod could consider incorporating this ability at some point down the track into there upcoming SRS system which I'm sure initially will be just for vocab.Anyhow,food for thought.

Actually, the idea of using sentences is actually striking. I guess I give it a try.

Oh, as far as I know, the SRS for the chinesepod flashcards is on the way (I hope, this is also true for the mobile applications)

I use sentences in Anki. I love Anki. I feel I have progressed much faster using spaced repetition.

I, too, am afraid of creating bad sentences so I copy sentences from the dialogue or expansion sections of Cpod. Anki gives the pinyin and/or translation. Otherwise I copy and paste it in as well. I double check the tone marks because sometimes they are incorrect. Sometimes the English translation is goofy so I change it if need be. I like to make an audio tape of the same sentences so I can practice them on my commute.

It is easier to remember the chunks but I find I have trouble with individual characters so I'm practicing them also. I think it would be good to use a set of similar sentences and vary the vocabulary so I can't 'cheat' since the reviewing the sentences can become somewhat predictable. If I know most of the words I can guess the character I have forgotten.

Sebier, I believe the idea is "lexical chunks" or "language in context," but I almost feel I would need to be a native speaker to create good phrase or sentence cards, so I use single word vocab cards. I just wondered if anyone here had tackled this problem.

Having a tutor would be great!

What's the reasoning for having sentences and phrases?

If I were to just dump random lines from a dialogue into a card using the English translation as it is given, I'm sure I would translate it back into something completely different. Then I get paranoid about whether what I had done was just another way of saying the same thing, or whether it was just wrong. I need a tutor.

daniel70,

oh right.Great tips.Thanks mate.I knew I should have spent more time reading through the instructions.Really useful advice;much appreciated :)

baba,

You can make changes while in review mode.

ctrl-shift-s will suspend a card

ctrl-del will delete the card from the deck

ctrl-e lets you edit the card -- do another ctrl-e to go back to reviewing

you don't need to be in browse mode to do these operations, you can do them while you're going through your flashcards.

kimiik,

Good point.Anki blows words that you keep ascribing easy to out to years I think,but I think it should have another option button as you are going through your flashcards to say don't ever show me this card again.You can manually go through your deck deleting words you've mastered,but I think it'd be nice to be able to do that on the fly.

SRS技术，可能对学习语言有帮助，带还是不能代替人做来的努力的学习，每天的增加一点一点，一年后 就可以知道很多了，能学习高级的语言了，everybody，come on！Stick to it，the surprise will come to you，believe me。I had the experience from chinese ABC to advanced 。。。

SRS技术，可能对学习语言有帮助，带还是不能代替人做来的努力的学习，每天的增加一点一点，一年后 就可以知道很多了，能学习高级的语言了，everybody，come on！Stick to it，the surprise will come to you，believe me。I had the experience from chinese ABC to advanced 。。。

Around the net, many people insist that you should use sentences or phrases in your srs deck. I've been using words ... primarily because they are easier to input. I have a second deck which is just characters.

Does anyone here use sentences and phrases?Any opinions on this?

I bet it's less useful for people who are surrounded by the language every day. Of course, it's handy to force you to learn how the write the characters. I think for us lot in the non-Chinese speaking world, it's pretty handy. However, it can get dull - you need a bit of will. It works for me, because I can see a nice upwards graph with all my unique characters. However, I do dread those days where I have been away, and have a stupid number of reviews to do.

Only 350 unique hanzi in my Anki at the moment. I wonder how many cards I need to achieve "fluency", rather than number of unique characters, which is clearly a nonsense measure.

Hi Simon,

In my opinion, you only need artificial SRS for low frequency vocabulary. I learn regular vocabulary and structures through natural SRS : many lessons giving many exposures of the same words in different contexts.

To answer you question:

To be honest: I think it is boring :-). It is not my cup of tea to spend time on things over and over again, I need fresh input, or a fresh context. I noticed that high freq vocab will appear anywhere (podcast / irl), anyway. Also I do not feel the need for it, luckily I don't have much problems remembering sounds / words. Unfortunately this does not go for character writing haha!

Besides that, the words I forget, most of the time are not "too important" (to me) right now. I often joke that 刷卡，is my first Chinese word.

However, I find that if I see the words I just saw / learnt / encountered from Cpod / txtbook IRL, and think "hey", here it is again and then yes!, it stick much better! So, I rather go "out there" then use software or flashcards and learn in a natural context.

So, I agree with SRS, but not maybe in an actively or fixed framework, for me, that is. ;-) But if it works for you or someone else, hey that's great!

I think they are using some SRS. Quite often I see words that have appeared in recent  earlier lessons. Whether it is a deliberate policy I don’t know but I think it is helpful.