I have progressed!

H Simon,

Just wanted to reply to something you said earlier, I agree it's possible to make it pretty far without speak practice.  (And in fact, I think early on it's better not to waste time trying to speak to native speakers, especially if you aren't Chinese-looking, since they'll otherwise just switch to English on you first chance they get.)  The difference is for me, I could only go as far as the easier Intermediate lessons without real-life application.  When I first started studying upper Intermediate lessons, before I had any speaking environment, it was a complete waste of time.  That is a reason why I am so impressed.

Again, good job!  I don't think you're being excessively mushy or anything like that either, I think reflecting on progress and study strategies is crucial to making further progress and well worth it.

You should be able to set up two decks. I've definitely done that. You should be able to select which files you want to import into which deck. So for your vocab deck, you can just import from the CPod text file. Then create a new deck, and import your radicals into that one.

Ok,I've got the Mandarin Toolkit installed and working by istalling the advanced Pinyin toolkit first.Is there a way of studying separate decks though? Initially I installed a shared radical set and then I just added my newbie vocab,but it seems to have lumped them together.

Thanks again Sebire.The CPod blog is really helpful.I'll follow the instructions there.Regarding the Pinyin Toolkit.Within the downloaded programme I clicked on file then download.Initially I then clicked on shared decks which gave a choice between simpe and advanced pinyin toolkits.Also that menu had an option of a deck called viruses.Crikey.Anyhow,I went back to file..download...shared plugins and there the only option was an advanced pinyin toolkit.Also there was the Hanzi statistics,so I think they're both the ones you're referring to 对不对？ 。。But I couldn't see the "Mandarin Model" you were referring to.Ah,don't worry,I've caught up with John's blog which explains it. :)

Er, apparently if you're a premium subscriber, you can sync it somehow. You'd have to check the CPod blog. I just dump the key vocab off the HTML transcript out into a UTF-8 encoded text file and import it from there. You need to download the Pinyin Toolkit and Hanzi Statistics to get all the cool stats and features. Also, you will need to download something called the "Mandarin Model", which basically gives you three fields to fill in rather than two (for character, pinyin and meaning). I think you have to do that first really.

Ok,I've downloaded it.Any tips on the best way to import my vocab from my CPod vocab tab?

Thanks heaps Andrew,Simon,and Sebire.I love the sound of it..spaced repetition,HSK level references and graphs.I'll give it a shot.

I don't use audio with Anki, as I just "hear" the pinyin in my head.

baba, I'm in the process of loading the key vocab for lessons I've done in the past few months back into Anki. You don't have to "tick" vocab you've done, because you just tell it whether you found it easy/ok/difficult to remember a word, and if you're clicking easy all the time, it'll get scheduled to review in x months, or you can disable it altogether. It's slightly confusing to set it up at first (there's a couple of plugins you need), but once you've worked that out, it's brilliant. I particularly like the graphs that say how many characters you've loaded from any particular HSK level, and also how many words you've seen from the character frequency lists (e.g. how many from the most common 500 characters, the 501-1000 etc.)

The web integration is good too, but you don't get the graphs. You can also load the desktop version on various computers and get it to sync with the server. It's great!

I don't know anything about Anki. I'm using a software called StudyArcade. It's an iPhone app (and only that, no computer). It's great because it automatically syncs with ChinesePod, so there's no need to manually add the vocab. There are SRS programs for the computer, too, like SuperMemo and Mnemosyne (and Anki, apparently), but in the past I've found it hard to do the studying only at the computer at home. With SA I can study on the bus, at lunch breaks and so on. Very convenient.

StudyArcade does support audio, but I don't think it brings it along during the sync. Then again, I don't add words from the lesson vocab lists (where there's audio connected), but by clicking all the unknown words in the dialogue tab (where there's no adio connected to individual words) or by adding them manually (like when I'm studying from my measure word dictionary or replacing the dialogue nouns with versions with added measure words). So if it did sync audio, I wouldn't know about it.

Baba: if you do start using an SRS software, there's no need to mark words you've "mastered", since the program will keep track of it for you. I mark the words with the name of the lesson, but that's for purposes of Skritter practice, not StudyArcade.

it has a web-based interface which works pretty well on the iphone, http://anki.ichi2.net/account/login   it syncs automatically with your desktop installation.

Reading through this I am once again reminded of the importance of reviewing vocab and that I need to get my act in gear.Two things seem to hold me back from getting around to doing that.Firstly I always chose to listen to the latest lesson rather than review and as I have trouble keeping up with the latest lessons I never find time to getting around to reviewing.Secondly I haven't figured out how to organise my vocab here,so there is like this mountain of vocab.I'd love it if there was a way of sorting through it and marking off words you'd mastered.I suppose I could just add tags to the words but I haven't figured out an efficient system of doing that.I'm interested in this new anki app.Is that only for folk with certain types of mobile phones ,or can it be used on your computer? [I hope so]. Can it be used on an iPhone [I suspect not]?

are you guys using Anki able to do it with audio?  It would be a lot more helpful for me it was like that.  I can't remember tones for the life of me without actually hearing it.

比特尼克之诗呀！

Yes, Anki (SRS) has changed my life in the past month. Can't believe it's taken me this long to discover it!

I find I understand the banter far more readily at intermediate than I do the dialogue. I listened to the dialogue of that hotpot lesson about 6 times without seeing it, and was still struggling to process it at full speed. Some of the men spoke so fast! Or maybe I was tired. I don't know. I can't follow the banter at UI because I don't know the words used to explain the words, so I have decided (for the upteenth time) to go on a vocabulary bender (except this time I have Anki so maybe I will be a bit more successful).

To be clear, I've had great help from the lessons previously. Up to Intermediate level they were quite useful, as they helped me to make sense of what kind of contruction was used and what was a set expression, and so on. Nowadays, I can mostly figure it out by myself.

And to be fair, I don't use the exercises, the supplementary vocab, the audio review or the PDF, either. They're just not part of my method. This in no way means they're not useful to other people. It's just that my method is based on having a dialogue, a transcript and a translation. That's all I need. Plus a forum to ask questions in, sometimes. I'm sure there are lots of people who find the lessons very useful at the upper levels. The strength of ChinesePod is the variety of tools it offers so that people can customize their own learning routine.

As to speaking practice, I don't think it's that essential. Speaking practice is useful for practicing speaking, of course. But you can get pretty far in a language without ever speaking it. You can read, write and listen. I've had little speaking practice at all with my French, to be honest. When I took the oral exam at the University, I hadn't spoken that much at all (and never with anyone else than my teacher). I had, however, watched a ton of movies in French and walked around thinking in French in my daily life, so it was no problem. The teacher commented on my good flow and pronounciation and wondered how it had improved so much in the weeks before the exam (as I had been less fluent previously). The answer was many, many hours of watching French movies.

As to retention, well, I use an SRS software on my iPhone. Thus I never forget a single word. Ok, I do, but I'm reminded of it sooner or later. So I have, in the long run, 100% retention rate. It's really that simple. Use an SRS system and you just don't forget. You can't. I have every single word used in every single lesson I've studied memorized.

It does, however, mean that I review hundreds of words every day. At times, like today, I have so much review to do that I don't have time to study a new lesson. That's no problem, though, as the need for review shrinks if you don't add new ones. It's self-regulating!

Andrew

Well yes the lessons are entertainment and I too use the dialogue sentences, the audio dialog, and the expansion sentences to do most of my studying by repetition, but I wouldnt go so far as to say the lessons have little educational value. John points out many things that I find extremely helpful. But you are right, the real work is done elsewhere. I also have the same experience as you, until I use it, retention is very fragile.

Good job!

I'm particularly impressed you've made it so far without speaking practice.  For me, speaking practice is the foundation of any progression I make.  If I am not using it in real life, I can study lesson after lesson, and as soon as I've learned one lesson, I've forgotten the previous lesson.

I agree about the lessons, they're not very useful.  I listen to them mainly for fun, because I really like listening to Jenny and John, but they provide little educational value compared to practicing the dialogue, vocabulary, and expansion sentences (with literal translations provided).  If it's an old lesson prior to John's arrival, I skip it all together.  If I have any questions, I can usually consult an online dictionary or just ask a friend.

I do not find the banter completely understandable, no. I get the gist of it, but often, the words Jenny are using to explain a vocab word are unknown to me. But I don't really listen much to the actual lessons. They're fun and all, and give me some listening comprehension practice, but I don't really have much use for them at this level. I mostly use the dialogue-only audio for my learning.

And no, I can rarely understand a lesson the first time I listen through it. On average, there are maybe 35 words per lesson that I don't know, which is quite a lot. I listen once, then read through the transcript and add all unknown words to my vocab. Then I study them and shadow the dialogue the next day. Intermediate lessons I can usually understand completely the first time I listen to them, barring a few unknown words here and there. That's why they're not the right level.

Simon

Do you find the lesson banter between Jenny and John completely understandable as well or are you referring only to the lesson material itself? And when you say the lesson is just right, does this mean you can listen blind and understand, or that you can get through it by reading?

Well done Simon.

I'm beginning to believe that this is a not-to-uncommon ChinesePod user experience!

@John

I'm an Intermediate learner, but made my first ever breakthrough in UI with the Dinosaur lesson. I don't even like dinosaurs, but I absolutely loved that lesson. Now, I'm trying to exploit all the 'easy' UI - I have Badminton and Getting a Library Card bookmarked!!

Thanks for the details.

Good work Simon.  I made a similar 'mushy' post about a month back.  The difference was, I had tons of opportunity to talk with Chinese people as I live in China.  I really admire that you've gotton so far without actually being in an authentic environment or attending structured classes.

Simon,

Thanks for the details.  How did you get started learning the characters?

Wow, really valuable details.  Thanks, Simon!

Your progress and dedication are very impressive. I feel both inspired and ashamed! I wholeheartedly agree with you about the SRS algorithm. I use Anki everyday to review vocabulary, and it is absolutely invaluable.

Simon

Your approach to reading is certainly different as well - i am always reading stuff that contains characters I don't understand for sure.  There is a lot of guess work in reading Chinese in my approach, helped by learning meanings normally associated with certain radicals, and context.  If I think that my understanding of what I am reading is hampered by this approach I look some key characters up in a dictionary, and if that doesn't help I try and ask a native speaker.  I find that I learn quite a lot about written Chinese this way.  

BTW I have never used software that has a pop-up definition (except where it happens on ChinesePod.) I can see how it could help in certain situations - but of course it is not available for much reading material.  But I also find it can be a bit of a distraction, something like text with pinyin under it distracts.    

It occurs to me that I am not in as much of a hurry as you!  

I do like the challenges you are throwing out - to received wisdom, poddies etc.  

I forgot that you mentioned you were a southern styles practitioner.  Have fun in Guandong province.

Regarding the patterns/grammar, that will be interesting to see how you pick that up, although i'm sure with 3 languages under your belt, you'll do better than me.  What I noticed the few times I was in the region is that enough people were understanding mandarin so it wasn't an issue. But for me, they were speaking way too fast (in other words, normally). 

On review: Spaced Repetition Software. It's that good.

For those of you who don't know, SRS uses an algorithm to calculate when it's time for you to review. You test your knowledge, and if it's easy, it'll take longer until it's time to review again. If you do poorly, it'll make you review the word again soon. All the vocab I study is entered into my ChinesePod vocabulary tool, which is then synced with StudyArcade in my iPhone. SA uses SRS to decide which words I need to review each day.

To me, the advantage is not just the fact that it makes sure I never forget a word, but also that it tells me when I don't have to review anymore for the time being. This way, I can be sure I'm on top of things and thus add new vocabulary.

Also, I don't "waste" time (in quotes because my learning style is certainly not the same as yours, so it might not be a waste of time to you) trying to read through stuff that has characters or words that I don't know. I don't read comments written in Chinese on this site, because they're likely to contain such words. Or, actually, I start reading them, but stop when I encounter unknown words or characters. This is also why I don't use the Activity Stream. If there's a text I want to read, I add every single new word or character (except names, at this moment, but I'll have to start doing that, too) into my vocab list.

Also, please note that just before I get to China and especially when in China, my method is likely to change. For now, I want to learn lots of vocab. I gather that patterns and grammar will be quickly picked up when in China.

Simon

You seem to have an unusual brain (that's a complement)! Maybe there is a 'cross over' with your martial arts - does the discipline learnt in martial arts carry over into language learning?  I don't think I was ever able to learn more than half a dozen words a day even when learning intensively.  I find it incredibly boring for a start.  I could learn more (for dictation, tests, etc.), but would not remember how to write them just a week or two later.  Then there was a period involving memorising whole passages!  Also quickly forgotten, but I would pick up grammar patterns this way.  Then this becomes boring too.  Now I am incredibly unsystematic and enjoy the learning a lot.   Incidentally I can't imagine how I would have proceeded without speaking practice (I love the sound of the language and even in Sydney I found opportunities to speak Chinese every day) - but then my brain obviously works differently to yours!! 

Argh, you've put me to shame. I need to buck up and start concentrating. How do you review the vocab Simon? Or is it the sheer amount of Chinese you hear that keeps it fresh in the mind?

Matt C: How many hours per day is yet another difficult question. I shadow dialogues for 30-40 minutes of walking a day. I listen to a lot of CPod at work, though lately I've been going through the Dear Amber episodes instead. I do revision at the bus and at home, sometimes with a notebook to write the characters on. All in all, maybe 2 hours on a slow day, 8 hours on an intensive weekend day, plus listening at work, 1-4 hours or so (though this isn't always very active). Add to that trying to think in Chinese.

Pretzellogic: Regarding 10-30 words a day, it's usually closer to 10 than 30. Average around 15, maybe. Yeah, it's been several Intermediate lessons a day lately. I haven't been doing this breakneck speed for five months, though. Just the last month. It demands a lot of revision, but it's doable.

The kung fu will be done in Foshan. I'll be training Wing Chun. From what I've been able to gather, "kung fu" in China usually means "modern wushu" (including what's left of the Shaolin temple), which is not what I'm interested in, but Wing Chun seems to be an exception, so that's what I'll be studying.

Hi simon

Gee, I just shouldn't have asked that question. You're really a fast learner, who seems to have a good listening comprehension ability.

simonpettersson, this is totally cool.  10-30 words/day too.  Nice quantifiable metric.  And it sounds like you were able to sustain that type of pace for about 5 months or so.  Tribute to your dedication.  Curious if your 10-30 words/day is over 5 days/week or 6 days/week?

10-30 words/day sounds like 1-3 intermediate lessons per day.  Interesting.

Gives us all something to shoot for.

Curious if you'll be trying to study with the monks at the shaolin temple in Zhengzhou, or you will be going to the multitude of martial arts schools in Zhengzhou?  I know there are plenty throughout China, but curious where you'll be studying.

@simonpettersson Nice work mate. Roughly how many hours a day of exposure to the Chinese language have you given yourself during this more intense period of your study?

John said:

Wow, that is great to hear! Sounds like you've made really rapid progress. Have you had opportunities to practice speaking?

None whatsoever, except for a Singaporean masseuse a year ago on a switchover on my way to Australia. I might buy a Guided subscription for a month before I get to China, but in my experience, active skill will readily follow passive skill, especially since I'm memorizing vocab both ways (Chinese-English and English-Chinese).

If you don't mind my asking, which UI lesson was it that revealed your breakthrough?

Saved by the Gong: Tai Chi.

Vallance said:

Heres a question. At what point did you move from Newbie to elementary? How many words did you have memorised?

Back then, I was just listening and not actively memorizing, so I really have no idea how many words that was. Probably took a long while, though. Can't remember. There was some Pimsleur, too, but that didn't work so well. But it probably helped a bit.

Bababardwan said:

I'm even more impressed with learning French in just 6 months.By learnt I take it you mean you're now at a fluent level? 了不起！What were your methods/resources there? Did you ever use FrenchPod? How would you compare learning the two?

Well, I had been taking French in school for many years, but that never really worked. I still couldn't say anything in anything but present tense. As for "fluent level", I haven't really had much opportunities for using it, but the few I have had have worked without problems. I can watch French movies without subtitles. Though now I'm worrying I'm not maintaining it enough, what with my focus on Mandarin and all.

Comparison-wise? French is a molehill, Chinese is a mountain. It's a world of difference. In French, just as any European language, there's a large "international vocabulary" stemming from Latin. No such thing in Chinese (in fact, loan words are even harder to remember than ordinary Chinese words).

However, I think I have a distinct advantage in knowing three languages already. I have little trouble memorizing new words, which I did have in French.

Methodology-wise, French was mastered through an unforgiving teacher and full-time studies at a local college, but mostly by watching tons and tons of French movies, starting with cartoons and moving through dubbed films to original French ones. I didn't have to worry much about reading, since French spelling is pretty consistent after you get used to it.

Wow, that is great to hear! Sounds like you've made really rapid progress. Have you had opportunities to practice speaking?

If you don't mind my asking, which UI lesson was it that revealed your breakthrough?

Well done Simon.I'm even more impressed with learning French in just 6 months.By learnt I take it you mean you're now at a fluent level? 了不起！What were your methods/resources there? Did you ever use FrenchPod? How would you compare learning the two?

Wow...well done! I think i will have to up my game...

Heres a question. At what point did you move from Newbie to elementary? How many words did you have memorised?

That's a very difficult question, Changye. I actually started listening to ChinesePod pretty much a few months after it had started. But back then, I only listened to some newbie lessons, didn't learn any characters and didn't memorize anything. Long periods of not doing any studies intermingled with periods of listening to CPod. I tried some other methods, but couldn't stick to them. They were too boring.

Then I learned French in six months intesive studying (after six years of shool learning which didn't give me much). No Chinese then.

Then some more CPod, until they changed it so that only paying customers could access the lessons other than the newbie ones. By then I was at an Elementary level, and didn't feel like paying, so I quit learning.

Then about six-seven months ago I decided to take it up again, and paid for a subscription. I started doing some flashcard stuff with my iPhone and listened to lessons. This is when I started actually learning characters. I was at Intermediate pretty quickly, but remained there. I had a lot of words that I knew but didn't know the characters for.

About a month ago I started my current intesive study schedule, since it became clear that I'll go to China to practice kung fu for a year starting March. Now I'm adding 10-30 words each day, learning a bunch of new characters and reviewing hundreds of words every day, through spaced repetition (which is the best thing ever).

So, uh, how long have I been studying Chinese? Depends on what you mean by "studying" and wether you count long stretches of time where I didn't do any of it.

Hi simon

How long have you been lerning Chinese? Please kindly don't say "half year"!