Using Obscure Words

Let me worry (in moderation), or remain mindful of it--you know, it probably won't make my posts much shorter anyway ...  　(-_-;)

真, long may you unload, that's what I wanna say! There's nothing to apologize for, that I can see anyway.

I hope you won't worry about 'keeping posts short' or whatever. Always interesting to read your words.

I certainly did unload here last week and I apologize for that.

I wasn't offended or anything Paul I just didn't understand what you meant.

I felt not a responsibility but a personal need to respond to Baba (and
I suspect any frustrations he might feel are not his alone here).
I did go on too long as I often do.  As far as I can tell, my being Japanese has nothing to do with the problems I have keeping my posts short and little to do with feeling 不好意思 for unloading.

Paul I think it may have been the 'tone' you used in that paragraph which caused Changye some discomfort. It did seem for a second like you were misconstruing zhen's meaning in a less than genteel way, (and do bear in mind that manners, being indirect, are absolutely central to the Japanese mind.)

Hi Zhen, I was just bemused by the headings in your two long posts and the "wishing Baba" ending in your second post i.e. 

1st post: Bababardwan (et al), we're getting close to the end--!

2nd post:Bababardwan, this is the End! Yay!

In any case, I wish you the best.  加油 Baba!

说完了！

It sort of gave me the impression that you've unloaded all that you wanted to say and sort of discharged a sense of responsibility and can now say, good luck, the end. But actually you were just sort of apologizing ahead of time for the length of your posts?

@Changye, are you saying my impression of the Japanese culture is inaccurate or something else is not jiving in the first paragraph?

Hi paulinurus

I was impressed with your latest comment, except for the first paragraph.

Sorry Paul I don't think I'm understanding what you've said to me.
What I do feel bad about is going on way too long (not like it's the first time for that to happen) and being unable to edit myself more. If I did plan I'm sure my posts could all have been shorter.  I'm not saying "bye now Baba have a nice life, you're on your own" if that's what you mean. I just thought everyone would be relieved to know that was, at long last, the end of my rambling.

Baba, don't worry about replying!  I've imposed my Chinese-studying history on you (all). 

@Paulinrinus, I'm pretty much with you on the imitating.  My first five years of Chinese was strictly imitating.  Of course, the problem was that I wound up speaking a mixture of Mandarin, Shanghaiese, and Taiwanese.  Still, native speakers always seemed to understand what I was saying, and it put dumplings on the table, so to speak.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone in a classroom situation, since it won't necessarily get you very good grades. However, it is very effective in daily life.

zhen,paul,changye,

Thank ye all for all your helpful advice.I'm listening.I want to reply properly but I know that I could gab on all night and I have some pretty pressing things to attend to over the next few days.I might get the chance to drop by now and then,but not sure how much time to post.

Zhen, I've heard that that Japanese people are very organized and particular to details but it is still a surprise and amusing for me to see you say "this is the end, yay" of what you want to say about this topic and then wishing Baba well. Seems to me you've felt some responsibility of imparting everything you want to say to help Baba, planned what you want to say, write them down, post it, and sort of say "that's it Baba, that's all I have to give." Would I be presumptous to say that "responsibility" is a core value in the Japanese culture? It is so different from the western culture where the core value is "actualizing yourself" even to the extent of being irresponsible toward others, including even family members, when necessary (i.e. if they are impeding your self actualization progress).

On the topic of picking words to communicate in Chinese when one is learning Chinese, of course the recommended approach which any foreign language book or teacher will tell you is to just practice what ever you know, not to be shy about it or care too much about whether you're using correct words or gammar, and hopefully you'll receive help from others within the environment (classroom, language site, friends, co-workers etc.) of better words or phrases to use when they realise what is it you wish to communicate about.  

The approach I've taken is just to "imitate". Fortunately for me (I think) is that when I started learning Chinese at beginning of last year, some people in the my evening class mentioned Livemocha. It was a very lively site last year (not so now) and I just kept writing and speaking Chinese in the weekly language exchange exercises for a year before coming here. I see how the Chinese natives corrected my Chinese (and hopefully they see how I corrected their English) and I imitate as much as possible their sentence structures when doing the weekly exercises. 

Baba, everyone has his/her own way of learning then practicing a foreign language. Mine is to imitate as much as possible. With over a thousand Cpod sentences now in my computer there is a large database for me to "copy" how to express what I wish to say in Chinese. But it is not easy or not time consuming to find the right structure. Also, after finding the right structure/words, remembering them is another thing altogether. I guess it is a journey like everything else in life and if we keep on going, we'll just get further and further to our destination.

Hi bababardwan

Chinese is an isolating language, which has no word inflection/conjugation. So, unlike other languages such as German, English and Japanese, it's relatively easy even for elementary learners to make a simple Chinese sentence with the help of a dictionary, regardless of whetehr it's natural or not.

Actually, I did the same thing before I "officially" started learning Chinese. There was a young Chinese guy who worked at a factory of my company. He managed to understand (perhaps) what I wanted to say through my "mock Chinese", but I'm sure they were very bad Chinese, or something looks like Chinese.

Bababardwan, this is the End! Yay!

After a while one probably has enough Chinese under one's belt to make oneself understood with such workarounds using simple language [as kids do],but at the same time not being able to precisely say what one is trying to ... at the same time I think if one is to try and progress one should try to find more ways to express things,stretch a bit even if one makes a dog's breakfast of it all.
I think simple language workarounds are very very good exercise for us not-yet-advanced learners--that is stretching (and pumping iron) too! When we can get our meaning across using our simple basic vocab it is not only instant gratification for us, it reinforces our foundations too. Of course this exercise is only possible when the person we're speaking to is patient and kind enough to help draw out the meaning our minds.
As for more ways to express things, it does take time--in my case two years--to finally begin having "synonym sets" and a few different ways of saying the same thing to choose from at one's disposal. I think until then, we just have to use the most basic (high-frequency, default) words or phrases because those are the most important to have. Then we can add, little by little, to that.
It will come, no need to rush it, as long as we keep exposing ourselves to Chinese. Again, reading. CPod podcasts are good for that too I think, listening to Jenny talk about the lesson content and vocab is really good for learners of our level.

I'm trying to say that could be very time consuming and inefficient and not always easy to interpret over a single word.If I were to take this advice too much on board it could be quite discouraging from giving it a shot at expressing myself in Chinese.Do you think that I should only post stuff in Chinese that I've double and triple checked?
Personally I think it's best to try and learn from one's mistakes than to spend a long time trying to produce something very simple and perfect from the start.
Believe it or not, I post very little stuff in Chinese that I haven't double and triple checked--the people who have read and seen how inaccurate my Chinese is will be shocked to hear this. And you know Baba, more often than not it wipes me out, to make a couple of such posts. I am serious--I believe the reason I can't seem to put on weight is Chinese, not just how I eat sleep and exercise.
I agree that it's not reasonable to require ourselves to be perfect every time. However as I've already said up there somewhere, I do think it is easier for people to offer their help (suggestions to improve, corrections) when we have made our sentences as clean as possible and mistakes minimized.
I do think simple, but clear and mistake-free is a very desirable quality.
Of course you see me apologizing all the time for my Bad Chinese. I certainly don't believe I am posting mistake-free Chinese. But I do aim for it. (Times when I just couldn't resist rushing off with something I know is wrong is when I say "Sorry--I know this post contains a lot of Bad Chinese!")

Baba, I think any struggle we go through as beginner and elementary level learners (and even intermediate) because of our desire to express ourselves and our lack of ability to do so--it's all valid, it's all necessary, and it doesn't last forever. Chinese toddlers are going through it now as we speak--aren't they?  Well actually the struggle probably lasts and lingers long after we're past intermediate level, but once we get over the initial painful bump, it won't be this acute. It will become more like a stiff neck or lower back pain maybe. haha

There are times when I may go the extra mile to try and sort out what's going to be most fitting,but other times either too lazy or too pressed for time to let one word hold me back and so just give it the best shot I can.I think that's generally preferable to switching to English words when I'm not sure what to use because there is zero potential from learning from that ...
You have a point that there is zero learning potential from reverting to English. This is true.

Baba, I obviously have a lot more free time than you do. I truly admire that, your having two jobs (! this which I did not know) and being a husband and a father to three kids, having other interests and still making the time to study Chinese, and sharing your enthusiasm for it with us all the time. If it were me, I honestly don't believe I could.
I'm repeating again, but I want nothing said here to discourage you from making the effort to learn and improve.
I see you in Activity Stream a lot now, that's really great--and I do hope our teachers continue to give you good feedback there, though I know they have a lot of work on their hands too.
And now if you do start on the Guided Plan, I'm thrilled for you! Getting speaking practice and counseling from a live teacher! 

I really appreciate your responses so far, and your listening to my copious ramblings and not taking them as patronizing or preachy.
Unfortunately I've taken up so much space talking about myself--sorry about that everybody. Just was hoping some of that might provide perspective.

In any case, I wish you the best.  加油 Baba!

说完了！

Hi bababardwan

I fully agree with what zhenlijiang said above. I think "bite off more than you can chew" is not necessarily a bad thing when you read something written in a foreign language, but not so recommended when speaking and writing. Please try to write Chinese using plain words as much as possible. You've already learned a lot of such words and phrases here in Chinesepod. Of course, you can use a word you see in a dictionary for the first time, but you have to be careful not to use "out of place" ones. Now, how can you tell plain words from rarely used ones? This argument seems to go round and round, hehe.

Bababardwan (et al), we're getting close to the end--!

I suppose I could extensively research it,looking for sample sentences on google etc but then this could become a very time consuming exercise over a single word that is listed in a dicitionary.
Baba you know, it is time-consuming for me to put together the simplest posts in Activity Stream for instance. I dictionary-hop (J to C, C to J, E to J) like mad for one word I don't know how to say in Chinese, then usually go to Baidu in my case and see what I've found will bring up (collocations, whole phrases usually, as opposed to single words). As Changye has said before elsewhere, just because some usage exists in significant numbers in Google / Baidu that is no warranty of grammatical correctness. You do get an idea of "whether native speakers are saying that a lot".
And native speakers will tell you too--when they're talking on the net very often they will be sloppy in usage, opting for speed over grammatical accuracy. Still, I find the Baidu check helpful and go to it all the time.

Also I think one should try to express oneself in Chinese even if making lots of errors and coming out with unnatural stuff...hoping to be corrected.If I was worried about such things I would not venture to write much beyond ni3hao3 which I think holds one back.
On the other hand (as opposed to doing the time-consuming checking and looking up words that I want to say)--are there merits to limiting my Chinese writing practice to the vocab and constructions I do already have, which would mean not expressing myself (= as John said, talking not about what I really feel like talking about because everything is dumbed down to my language ability)?
Yes--to an extent. In my second year of learning Chinese we had to write a few sentences about some given topic as homework every week. I would "need" to say "what I wanted to say" and go bury my head in my dictionaries and sweat for hours because I had to look up literally every other word I "wanted to say". And my sentences, when I read them in class--first of all my classmates couldn't follow me at all. Nobody was appreciating what I was saying, mainly because I was using so many non-high-frequency (for our level) words. Plus my usage was "foreign", a patchwork of phrases grabbed from dictionary examples and hopefully, but without the foundation needed, strung together. Our teacher would listen, show appreciation for my effort to tell a funny story or whatever. But I noticed she always praised my classmates more. They were not using fancy vocab. They were making themselves understood and writing shorter and simpler but clear sentences within their own means, and our teacher was commending that. The point was of course that we had by that time been taught enough basic, important constructions (been given the building blocks) and ought to be able to say things (though of course, not "be ourselves as we are in our native languages") making full use of those resources.
She would tell one of them sometimes--you should read more and make an effort to expand your vocab. About me she was a bit more concerned. She said I really had to be deliberate about this, to focus now on expressing myself with the material and tools I did have at my disposal--esp as my vocab was growing all the time. Otherwise, I was not helping myself build a solid foundation.

回头见！
orangina glad you like it, though I think people who know my ways find it more ominous--as in, "I'm not finished yet, promise I'll be back w/more!"

changye,

Actually the paper thing was really just when it comes to paper dictionaries vs online dictionaries.I didn't think I was likely to go off and read a dictionary [but I just might now to check it out and learn a new skill after consideration of this discussion] on it's own for hours on end the way I would a novel or some other book.I see a dictionary more as a reference tool.But children's story books I would love if I had some good ones to choose from.You can read many novels online now for free,but I would still rather actually have a hard copy and go and read it in a chair or bed.

Hi zhenlijiang

There are a lot of "very easy to read" books for Chinese children at a local bookstore here in China. They even show you pinyin, which is really helpful for us foreign learners. Unfortunately I couldn't find this kind of materials online yesterday.

It seems to me that bababardwan doesn't like "paper things" very much. So I think podcasts and online texts are most appropriate for him. I don't recommend elementary learners use pera-kun. Nick seems to be better than the pop-up dictionary.

Hi zhenlijiang

Thanks a lot! That's a cool Japanese translation!

Changye,　

（調べものをしていた）辞書の方にハマってしまい、もともと読んでいた
記事には戻らずじまいになることが、しばしばある

Apologies for my strange Japanese but I think you get the meaning. You should have asked Tvan to paraphrase himself, either in English or Chinese!    Oops and I was late anyway.

Hi xiaophil

I got it now. Many thanks!

changye

I know I'm not zhenlijiang, but I think I can help you.

He means that when he looks up a word in a dictionary, he sometimes continues reading the dictionary and never goes back to what he originally was reading.

Hi zhenlijiang

Would you kindly translate the sentence below into Japanese for me? To tell you the truth, I didn't understand what it said ....

I sometimes never make it back from the dictionary to the news article that I started off with.

Tvan, never make it back from the dictionary--yes that does tend to happen. A lot.

Changye you should have a group in which you consult and give personal recommendations for dictionaries and reference books! And we could repay you by ... ? I don't know really what you could possibly get out the deal, just that it would be great for us!

But so you don't recommend that Baba read certain books because they might a bit too difficult--I thought it sounded like you were saying you encourage elementary readers to use perakun.

I should think there is more than enough reading material that isn't too difficult ...
Of course I don't know what it's like in Brisbane. The children's floor at the public library near me has a small but for me fascinating Chinese corner. And there's a Chinese corner in the library because there's a sizable Chinese community here in the first place.
I did buy books in China including three by Dr. Seuss (I think these had both the E and the C) which admittedly would not be the best to learn Chinese sentence structure at all, but they do make delightful material just to practice reading out loud.
I hope you can find some nice things Baba, whether searching online or elsewhere (asking Chinese people you meet if they know?), that can engage you and maybe you can read with your daughter (she can help you!).

Hi tvan

I wish it were an all-in-bopomofo-order dictionary, hehe! Actually, there is an all-in-pinyin-order Chinese/Japanese dictionary in Japan, which was edited more than forty years ago. It doesn't show index characters, and shows all the words in a pinyin order, just like English dictionaries. Probably the author was deeply influenced by the romanization movement of Chinese in those days.

P/S. Do you have a 同义词词典 (for Taiwanese people) published in Taiwan?

Ha Changye, you caught me.  It's organized by radical, then stroke count like most Chinese dictionaries.  It uses bopomofo to order combinations.

I do have a Taiwanese-flavored Chinese dictionary.  It is useable for me (barely), and your suggestion is a good one.  I need to get past my "hacked" Chinese, especially writing.  The all-Chinese dictionary is very good practice in that I often wind up looking up characters, so that I can understand the definitions.  However, I sometimes never make it back from the dictionary to the news article that I started off with.

Hi tvan

Many thanks. It's the first time I ever see a Chinese dictionary that employs bopomofo arrangement. Just interesting. I'd like to get one someday!

Far East Chinese-English Dictionary seems to be very good for upper-intermediate and advanced learners, since it contains about 120,000 words, but not so good for elementary learners. There are not enough examples shown in the dictionary.

Do you have/use a Chinese dictionary that ordinary Taiwanese people use? With your Chinese, I believe that using it would be very beneficial for you. This kind of dictionaries usually show you a lot of example phrases and sentences.

Hi zhenlijiang

Chinesepera-kun is very helpful. I always use it when reading Chinese news articles and essays online. I just don't want to waste time when my purpose is reading/enjoying, but not learning. Incidentally, I use "Pop-jisho" when I read English materials online.

That said, honestly, I don't recommend elementary learners use the pop-up dictionary, mainly because it sometimes shows you an incorrect pinyin even for very basic characters. As for multi-reading characters (多音字), I must say it's just disastrous, hehe.

Very thankfully, there was no "pera-kun" when I was an elementary learner. I mean it.

I think it also depends what your purpose in reading a particular passage is. To study Chinese vocabulary and syntax I read a paragraph or two of Chinese and translate the specific words I don't know, looking them up in a paper dictionary and writing in the English above the word (very tiny.) If I am following a conversation here in the comments, my goal is to figure out what is going on. Perakun makes this process much less painful and I enjoy my time here. If someone uses a word or phrase I like, I write it down in a small book of words to study. For example zhenlijiang used 那回头见, which I had not run across before and thought was brilliant and will add to my vocabulary!

那回头见!

Perakun is very helpful for exactly the reason bababardwan said.  That said, if one wants to practice 阅读, one ought to turn off or close all dictionaries and just read and see what one knows.  After that, going back and using the dictionary is acceptable. 

My 2 cents.

zhen,

If you don't use perakun there is a possibility here that you may not know the difference between it and google translate.Forgive me if you do already know,but in case not,here it is.I agree with avoiding google translate as much as possible as there is next to nothing to be learnt language wise with that [depending on how you use it of course].As you saw the other day and can just copy and paste a huge swathe of text into google translate and thus get the gist of a conversation [when I'm too lazy or pressed for time to work it out sentence by sentence].Perakun on the other hand is like a dictionary...but rather than having to leave say a post here on cpod ,I can just hover my mouse over a word I'm unsure of and a dictionary like definition instantly pops up above the word..magic stuff.So I don't hover over every word.I'll try to read as much as I can from what I already know and then just hover when I get to a word I haven't encountered before.It's not perfect and I do sometimes still have to go to an online dictionary when perakuns definition doesn't sound right.But despite this ,often it is good enough for my purposes.

tvan,

Thanks for your encouragement mate.Yeah,I intend to give it a shot soonish.

Changye--maybe I'm misunderstanding--are you saying that Baba should not be trying to read without pera-kun?

I've never used such aids myself so don't know what it's like, but it seems to me that we learners should generally try to stay away from them, at least when we're practicing (and not pressed for time to understand and reply to something, for instance).
Or is this just me?

@changye, I guess I'm still sticking with my Far East Chinese-English Dictionary, which is arranged in by radical with a supplementary pinyin index.  (It's not suitable for most learners, since it focuses on tradititional characters and bopomofo.)  I agree with you that a pinyin lookup is much faster.  Of course, that only for works for characters that you recognize.

@bababardwan, IMO identifying the radicals is a difficult, but worthwhile pursuit.  Don't feel discouraged if you struggle at first.  Lots of Chinese have the same problem.

changye,

Thanks for looking anyhow mate.I actually do have one.But I got it from Chinatown in Sydney.Came with a CD too.I've read it..it was very simple,but I must check out the CD now that this thread has reminded me.

Hi bababardwan

I agree that reading books for children is beneficial for learners of foreign languages, but I don't recommend you buy paper books of this kind. You can't use pera-kun when reading them. I've just tried to find some easy children's stories online, but it seems there are no appropriate ones available. I'm afraid they are all a little too difficult for you. Let me try again later.

Hi tvan

That's right. Furthermore, you will be able to look up a word faster (without using radicals) after you've learned a certain number of Chinese characters. You know, characters and words are listed in a pinyin/alphabetical order in Chinese dictionaries.

tvan,

Thanks mate.The point about radicals is a good one.Actually that is probably going to be the selling point for me.It will be a new skill to learn just how to look up words via the radicals,and the radicals are one area I am very interested in and the need to know them in order to use the dictionary may just be the impetus I need.I'm less sold on the definitions being more comprehensive [unless perhaps if it's backed up with good examples in sentences].At my stage I just want to know what the most common meanings/usages are.

Re: paper dictionaries, they do definitely take more time.  However, it also requires practice identifying radicals, something that the online "cut-and-pasters" miss out on.  One final plug, definitions in a good paper dictionary are much more comprehensive than those in the online variety.

If you do use a paper dictionary frequently, I found it pays to memorize the radical set that it uses in the order listed.  It's one more chore, but it pays dividends in speed.  You can just flip to the radical listed on the outside edge of the page.

zhen,

I tell you what.All this talk is getting me interested to at least go and have another look.I love books and bookstores though must admit that dictionaries aren't high on my list of what draws me into them.I have briefly had a look before but not much more than cursory.If there's one that looks ok and not too expensive I may even fork out,particularly as I think Pete mentioned there may be some lesson coming up about how to use a dictionary [or did I imagine that?].I like to give anything a go.Trouble is I'm not a big fan of waste though and I fear I may not end up using one much simply because these online dictionaries [and I saw John recommend one for the iphone that I must check out] are so convenient and generally up to the task at my level.I also trust these online and electronic forms,whatever their current perceived limitations are now,are only going to improve in time.And yeah,if I travel someday to China,I'd find it much more convenient to have one on my iphone then lugging around paper ones...space and weight.But your mention again of children's books has me once again longing for some of them.Can't find any here in Brisbane as far as I can see.Must improve my online ordering I think.I've never really got into that.

Now you were saying:

"please bear with me just a bit more".

..I'm waiting;let's hear it.I'd love to hear more.Thanks for all your feedback.

Bababardwan, for what it's worth:

The thing I find with the grammar is that the syntax has not really held me back to any great degree from understanding the Chinese,only from constructing it.Somehow I can't quite link the two,but hopefully in time it will come.
Baba I still believe reading as much as you can (w/out pera-kun or similar aids of course) is the way, because we find the same constructions and expressions again and again and will be assured of what they can and do convey. At our level, simple writings are good. CPod dialogues are different, they're very good for teaching us spoken Mandarin (but our spoken will improve too, through reading/writing). The good thing about books for children is that they take few if any liberties with the language, they're not slangy; they're written very "correctly" so not-yet-advanced students can feel comfortable and "safe". I won't lie to you; I'm dismayed all the time at how often I have to consult a dictionary just to get through a picture book for five year olds (I could get the meaning and re-tell the story in my own English words no problem, but there will be words I haven't yet learned). But by making that type of material the core of my "training" reading, I can build on my base in manageable bites.

As for paper dictionaries,once again a good idea I'm sure,but with the convenience of online dictionaries I haven't seen a great advantage in having one.Generally the online ones have been good at my level.Are paper ones really that much better? You've gotta remember I'm not anywhere near your level and won't be going in depth into things the way you do.
A friend who began studying Chinese later than me was considering what dictionary to get as her first one. She was decisively going for a very basic (however I would not describe it as basic, but very limited) one. Her reasoning was that she was a beginner and what use would she have for a "full-scale" one, the basic one should serve her basic level just fine. I looked at it and said she shouldn't waste her money on a dictionary like that, as it will only keep proving to be limited and dissatisfying to use.
She got that limited paper one. But so soon also ended up buying an electronic one (which contains the "full-scale" comprehensive ones), like I did--nervous at my impending trip to Shanghai with scenarios in my head of sitting with the Chinese guests at my teacher's wedding banquet and being unable to speak. I didn't want to make my suitcase heavier than it needed to be, or lug around 2-3 printed volumes in my bag wherever I went. And my electronic lets me jump from J-C to C-J and back etc., has a stylus and handwritten character recognition and gives me audio for pronunciation which is nice too.
But I agree with Tal--you can't read electronic ones like you would paper ones and you miss out, by not reading also the 上面and 下面 in every lookup chance you get (yes that means more time spent of course).

As for online ones, I've said I go to nciku all the time. Yes. But nciku is certainly not omnipotent. It has strange English sentences sometimes too. I still like it enough to go to it all the time.

And this should not contradict my advocacy of dictionary use at all--but dictionaries in general are not omnipotent. That's why so often I look in them, cross-reference, back-translate, do the Baidu check, in short, do everything in my power at the time--and still end up not nailing it.
I haven't had my error-ridden Chinese corrected much here--in the form of outright correction. But I've noticed sometimes poddies and teachers have kindly responded to my posts incorporating "re-works", using the term I wanted to correctly, or using a different term that says what I wanted to more appropriately.  I'm grateful for that helpful feedback, and realize too it is easier to offer after I've worked my post to minimize the mistakes.

Most of us will never be Changye-level dictionary connoisseurs. But we can look to him (and Pete too) as an example of how much is to be learned from having on hand and getting to know at least one good dictionary.

Baba, anybody else still reading, I'm so sorry. I can't seem to be briefer. Or finish what I want to say ... please bear with me just a bit more.

Hi chanelle77

No wonder your husband didn't want to extend your stay in Japan.

@ Zhenlijiang, well everywhere in 東京! Maybe it was the bīru ;-)

zhen,

"which makes me think, seriously, that I need to reconsider my idiosyncratic choice of vocab and sentence structure in Japanese."

..I wouldn't think that at all.Google translate is always good for a laugh.Particularly with longer sections it never gives better than a rough idea what is being said and needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt IMHO.Much better to try and translate things word by word in my opinion.I only resort to use it for long passages that I'm too lazy to go through the more laborious task of translating bit by bit.

Xiaophil, if only I could truly thrive and "be all that I can be" in my mother tongue, that would actually make me very very happy.

haha Baba thanks for the laughs! I sound even less intelligent via google translation (Changye came out of it much better) which makes me think, seriously, that I need to reconsider my idiosyncratic choice of vocab and sentence structure in Japanese.

Tal, that "itchy" idiom (hand reaches the itchy spot) describes something very very good; it finally leaves nothing to be desired. My J-C dictionary gives 无微不至（地照顾）--don't know if that is spot-on for the nuance though.

(mm Chanelle, where exactly did you see those good-looking guys during your short stay? I've seen you refer to them and it has always made me curious.)

Changye I'm sure you're right. What publishers want is to sell books. They play (or prey! either way this time would work) on Japanese learners' anxieties and fear--I'm not really like that but many are so eager and serious and so ready to believe they're born hopeless at languages. So whether that is really the author's original drift or not, they like to sell books with titles like "300 Common Errors by Japanese Learners of Mandarin". You point out however that such "common Japanese errors" are actually just common errors by foreign learners of Mandarin in general. We Japanese are such self-flagellators (so, no wonder we're terrible at languages!).
Thank you again for taking the time to recommend those books. Still do feel slight trepidation because I'm stubbornly convinced my limitations are what keep me from going astray. And though I'm not linguistically talented I guess I like to think there's an "intuitive learner" in me that needs to be protected from too much reasoning and analytic thinking.
But I am definitely interested, particularly in the synonym books, and will look them up. You need to venture, to learn. And they look like interesting reading anyway, not just dry explanations of grammar rules.

那回头见！

Changye,

You are absolutely right (as always haha)!

Now I keep my big 口 shut and go back to work :-)

Hi chanelle77

I'm afraid the global financial crisis might affect negatively the launch of Japanesepod. For the time being, let's concentrate on learning Chinese, hehe.

Hi zhenlijiang

アマゾンでは『日本人の誤りやすい中国語表現３００例』に対する書評が一件だけ掲載されていますが、あれは書名の似た別の本に対する書評を誰かが間違って投稿したものですので、参考にしないでください。その似た本というのは『中国語表現３００例』ですが、こちらはかなりの上級者向けでしょう。私の場合、この本を書棚の飾りにしてから既に数年が過ぎております。汗

As soon as there is Jpod, I'll start :-)!

(to be able to hit on Japanese men *wink wink*)

changye, zhenlijiang

I think it is cool seeing Japanese here.  Although, haha, I find one of my previous comments ironic now:

"I really admire you, changye, for being able to thrive here without ever resorting to your native tongue."

(This goes for you too, zhenlijiang.)

changye,

No worries at all mate.Post away.It's very interesting also seeing how a lot of the curvy kind of characters look completely different to Chinese Hanzi and then amongst that are some characters identical to the Chinese hanzi [and I note from google translation...same meaning too].I know there is a histrory there...didn't Japanese get its characters from Chinese and then changed things around from there? Anyway,we're not on a lesson thread so I think anything goes hey.If Praxis ever gets JPod I'll definitely be interested.

Guys

I'm sorry for posting a comment in Japanese again. My comment below is about Japanese books on Chinese grammar. I hope that our Japanese comments here would encourage some of you to start learning Japanese, hehe.

Hi zhenlijiang

『はじめての中国語の文法書』につきましては、確かに分量が多く網羅的ではあるのですが、個々の文法事項に対して余り突っ込んだ分析がありません。それで、マニアックな貴女（決めつけています）には些か物足りないのではなかろうかと思った次第です。その点、『誤用から学ぶ中国語』の方は間違いがありませんので、是非ご検討ください。本書は、実は私のネタ本でもあります。笑

そういえば、もう一冊、かなりマニアックな文法書の紹介を忘れていました。相原先生執筆の講談社現代新書『謎解き中国語文法』です。否定詞"不"の位置によって文全体の意味がどう微妙に変化するか、"可以、能、会"の使い分け等など、ネィティブスピーカーは本当にそこまで細かく考えて発話しているのですかと疑いたくなるほど、深く濃い分析がなされています。まさに謎解き。

謎解き中国語文法
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E8%AC%8E%E8%A7%A3%E3%81%8D-%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E%E6%96%87%E6%B3%95-%E8%AC%9B%E8%AB%87%E7%A4%BE%E7%8F%BE%E4%BB%A3%E6%96%B0%E6%9B%B8-%E7%9B%B8%E5%8E%9F-%E8%8C%82/dp/4061493426

「日本人がよく間違える云々」などと自分で書いておきながら今更言うのも何ですが、日本人によくある文法エラーの大部分は、おそらく他言語の話者にも同じように見られるのではないでしょうかね。当サイトでのコメントや質疑応答を見ている限り、そう思います。「中国語の悩みは人類共通」ということなのでしょう。笑　さあ、勇気を奮って「禁断の書」を手にしてみては如何がでしょうか。

類義語の使い分けは確かに大切ですね。類義語のニュアンスに触れていない辞書は、もうそれだけで「アウト」だと思います。その点、日本で発行されている英和/和英辞典は進化し尽くした感がありますが、中国語に関しては今一歩というところでしょうか。先にも触れましたが、中国では類義語辞典が充実していますので、訪中の際には、是非とも一冊入手されてください。できれば、分厚いものを。

追伸　「日本人がよく間違える」というのは、要するに出版社の戦略的キャッチコピーなんでしょうね。英語圏など海外にも類似のタイトルがありますか？

Are there also grammer books titled, for example, "common grammatical errors in Chinese made by Americans" (or something like that) in other countries?

Google translate rocks! I can't wait for the day I can just have a Google chip fitted inside my head somewhere, then I'll just be like "get the itch to get what it are carefully described"! Banzai!

paul,

hehe,yeah I love that expression from the Mexico lesson.For what it's worth,here's how google translate renders the above Japanese convo [gives a rough idea]:

changye says link to this comment
     6 hours ago

      Hi zhenlijiang

     Itadakimashou written in Japanese from a long-awaited them. Laugh

     (1) Zhenlijiang but may be unsatisfactory to Mr., is a favorite pastime, this book is absolutely first. 380 grammar is run in the voluminous pages, very comprehensive, I think as a perfect reference. I initially分厚introductory book I have been tired of this one book and now very dependable. One of the authors is that Mr. Aihara.

     WHY? Respond to the first Chinese grammar
     http://www.amazon.co.jp/Why- respond to the first Chinese grammar - Aihara - Shigeru / dp/4810200345/ref = sr_1_1? ie = UTF8 & s = books & qid = 1251300753 & sr = 8-1

     (2) In fact, I recommend the best of me, which is called a "Japanese people often mistake -" a genre of books. Because the author is a Chinese native who teaches at a university in Japan, and the weakness of the Japanese learner knows (?), Astonishing us so we stumble in matters of grammar, you get the itch to get what it are carefully described.

     Chinese learn from misuse
     learn from Chinese http://www.amazon.co.jp/ abuse - from fundamentals to applications - Kuo - Guizhou Spring / dp/4891745274/ref = sr_1_1? ie = UTF8 & s = books & qid = 1251301016 & sr = 1-1

     (3) by the hands of teachers of Chinese Language and Culture Institute of Beijing "Collection must not", but that is explained by physical Grammar (2) and unlike the book, here are arranged in order to pin the word usage and error-prone are. 170 pages and is smallish, so we get a concise description of the required per word, you just have to learn a nice flip through.

     Japanese fallibility of 300 cases of Chinese representation
     Japanese Chinese representation fallibility http://www.amazon.co.jp/ 300 cases - Lu - year-old `s / dp/4332820134/ref = sr_1_1? ie = UTF8 & s = books & qid = 1251301701 & sr = 1-1

     (4) Finally, focusing on usage of synonyms, in Japan, two of the unique books. In English is a common type of reference, in relation with the Chinese, I think probably more than sales or liquidity. Here in China, the so-called "thesaurus" literally "sell more" you keep the bookstore. Intermediate learners than if I would be quite readable.

     Nuances of Chinese Synonyms
     http://www.amazon.co.jp/ Chinese - nuances of synonyms - Aihara - Shigeru / dp/4497954633/ref = sr_1_1? ie = UTF8 & s = books & qid = 1251302285 & sr = 1-1

     Chigau do? Nuances of Chinese Synonyms
     Chigau http://www.amazon.co.jp/ do - the nuances of Chinese synonyms "2" - Aihara - Shigeru / dp/4497200035/ref = sr_1_2? ie = UTF8 & s = books & qid = 1251302285 & sr = 1-2

     We hope you find to help you.

     PS You look Yappari write in Japanese is easy.

     Avatar

     zhenlijiang says link to this comment
     5 hours ago

     Changye a great player is nice of you to introduce our very polite Wow.
     Thank you! Sorry to hear that I feel free to ask about.
     1), 2) both the title and the author tells teachers to watch a lot also. 1)
     I just was not enough what he might mean?

     Problem "Japanese fallibility" but what I mind my English
     I think the Chinese have a foundation, what is the mind or Japanese-based learning is not well understood. It would be unfounded, but I like the idea, not "error prone Japanese" Bakkari saw in the book, was clear recognition that long-awaited "polluted" the feeling that they are unwilling to somewhere like that, but this was the kind who did not even touch the eyes with it ...
     Emissions might have been too many mistakes in writing a native susceptible Chinese rather than English, and not enough.

     To those particularly interested in the nuances of synonyms. It was only in the intermediate learner's own experience, to represent one thing (although still poor and) I think with a little sense to learn vocabulary and expressions to choose from several new ones are so fun It opens up.
     Find a representation of work that it deems appropriate, and while pulling the dictionary, there's a synonym end shopping.
     Always in English, intense, and I love using a thesaurus.

     But in any case, you introduce shortly a reference book for the actual hand
     I would like to see.
     Thank you for your very valuable advice. Chosen is always hard to study them (I did not mean to take something to put assay ...)。

     If so I disabled the Japanese are afraid that you can see, I'm actually hard to write as much as English. Would be quite difficult even in English, Japanese is too difficult!

哇！我看过那么多鸟语！什么鸟语的意思呢？

Bababardwan, first and most important--I want to say that nobody, esp not one as enthusiastic and positive like yourself, should be discouraged here from making efforts to improve and learn. I was a bit concerned when I saw how this conversation started and then seemed not to be meshing--then Pete came to the rescue, clarified the points and also shared with us John's well-expressed thoughts on simply trying to talk in the language we're learning.

I just wanted to get that in and also say I'm still writing one last post--my thoughts about things you've said in this conversation.
Have to get some sleep now!

Changye 大先輩、わー大変ご丁寧なご紹介をいただき恐縮です。
ありがとうございます！つい気軽にお願いしてお手数をおかけしてしまいました。
１）、２）ともタイトルはよく見ますし著者の先生方もわかります。　１）が
私には物足りないかも知れないというのはどういう意味でしょうか？

問題の「日本人が誤りやすい」ものですが、私は自分が英語マインドを
基盤に中国語を考えているのか、或いは日本語マインドをベースに学習しているのか、よく分かっていないのです。これは杞憂だろうとは思いますが、思いつきもしなかったような「日本人が陥りやすい誤り」を本で見たばっかりに、せっかく澄んでいた認識が「汚染」されるのが嫌だという気持ちがどこかにあるようで、それで目に触れるのさえ避けていた種類の本だったのですが ...
むしろ英語ネイティブが陥りやすい中国語作文の誤りを私も多く排出しているのではないか、という気がしています。

類義語のニュアンスものには特に興味があります。自身の経験でも中級学習者になってようやく、ひとつのことを表すのに（まだまだ貧しいとはいえ）複数の表現から選べるような語彙や感覚が少しだけ身についたと思いますが、そうなると新しい楽しさが開けますね。
そして辞書を引きながら適切と思われる表現を探す作業というのは、結局類義語ショッピングですよね。
英語でも常に、激しく、大好きなシソーラスを利用しています。

いずれにしても、ご紹介いただいた参考書を近日中、実際手にとって
見てみたいと思います。
貴重なアドバイスをいただき本当にありがとうございました。いつも大変勉強させていただいています（アッなんかとってつけたようになってしまいました ...）。

ご覧いただけるとおりですが日本語が恐ろしく不自由ですので私の場合、実は書くのは英語と同じくらい大変なんです。英語も相当難しいと思いますが、やはり日本語は難しいです！

Haha, this just completely bears out what John says in his post. Changye has a different personality in Japanese (and I suppose I do as well)!  I love the 'all people in their right places' honorifics and 'space-creating' devices we have in Japanese. But I also love the egalitarian nature of English--it's a wonderful thing--where we can launch straight into the you are you and I am I, simple as that.
And Chinese has some of both I guess?

 Hi zhenlijiang

せっかくですから日本語で書かせていただきましょう。笑

（１） Zhenlijiang さんには物足りないかも知れませんが、まず絶対に外せない一冊がこれです。３８０ページにも及ぶ大部の文法書ですが、実に網羅的で、レファレンスとしても最適かと思います。私も、入門当初はこの本の分厚さに辟易しましたが、今では非常に頼りになる一冊。著者の一人は、あの相原先生です。

WHY？にこたえるはじめての中国語の文法書
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Why-%E3%81%AB%E3%81%93%E3%81%9F%E3%81%88%E3%82%8B%E3%81%AF%E3%81%98%E3%82%81%E3%81%A6%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E%E3%81%AE%E6%96%87%E6%B3%95%E6%9B%B8-%E7%9B%B8%E5%8E%9F-%E8%8C%82/dp/4810200345/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251300753&sr=8-1

（２） 実は、これが私の一番のお勧めなのですが、俗に言う「日本人がよく間違える～」というジャンルの本です。著者は日本の大学で中国語を教えているネィティブですので、日本人学習者の弱点は知り尽くしており（？）、凡そ我々のつまずきそうな文法事項に関して、それこそ痒いところに手が届くよう丁寧に説明されています。

誤用から学ぶ中国語
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E8%AA%A4%E7%94%A8%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E5%AD%A6%E3%81%B6%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E%E2%80%95%E5%9F%BA%E7%A4%8E%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E5%BF%9C%E7%94%A8%E3%81%BE%E3%81%A7-%E9%83%AD-%E6%98%A5%E8%B2%B4/dp/4891745274/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251301016&sr=1-1

（３） 北京語言学院の中国語教師陣の手による「べからず集」ですが、文法事項別に説明されている（２）の本とは異なり、こちらは用法を間違いやすい単語がピンイン順に配列されています。１７０ページと小ぶりですが、一語当りの説明が簡潔で要を得ていますので、パラパラとめくっているだけでけっこうな勉強になります。

日本人の誤りやすい中国語表現３００例
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E3%81%AE%E8%AA%A4%E3%82%8A%E3%82%84%E3%81%99%E3%81%84%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E%E8%A1%A8%E7%8F%BE300%E4%BE%8B-%E5%91%82-%E6%89%8D%E3%80%93/dp/4332820134/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251301701&sr=1-1

（４） 最後は、類義語の使い分けに特化した、日本では異色の二冊。英語ではよくあるタイプの参考書ですが、おそらく中国語関係では余り見かけないのではないでしょうか。こちら中国では、いわゆる「同義語辞典」が文字通り「売るほど」書店に置いてあります。中級以上の学習者であれば、かなり面白く読めるだろうと思います。

中国語　類義語のニュアンス
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E-%E9%A1%9E%E7%BE%A9%E8%AA%9E%E3%81%AE%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A5%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9-%E7%9B%B8%E5%8E%9F-%E8%8C%82/dp/4497954633/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251302285&sr=1-1

どうちがう？中国語　類義語のニュアンス
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%81%A9%E3%81%86%E3%81%A1%E3%81%8C%E3%81%86-%E2%80%95%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E8%AA%9E%E9%A1%9E%E7%BE%A9%E8%AA%9E%E3%81%AE%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A5%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%80%882%E3%80%89-%E7%9B%B8%E5%8E%9F-%E8%8C%82/dp/4497200035/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251302285&sr=1-2

お役に立てれば幸いです。

追伸　やっぱり日本語で書くのは楽ですねえ。

Ah I see. Changye what specific grammar book do you recommend (in either language; thin would be nice)?  I might take a look and invest if I like what I see, as my footing is still wobbly in the G area.

Tal

You got me.  To tell you the truth, I was going to blame my error on studying Chinese.  After all, we are always talking about 'complements' around here, aren't we?  But the truth is, I no be goode spellar.

calkins,

Thanks heaps mate for your encouragement.Much appreciated. :) I suspect my gobbledegook is harder to unscramble than Chinese kids who are better mimicks I'm sure and more to the point,than my cluttered cross wired cross cultural confused syntax mixture.But I agree with the forward and upward philosophy and just keep babbling thing.Yep,just need some very patient,loving,and energetic parents now to guide me.What's the deal with adoption and the one child policy? hehe,that reminds me.I told me kid about getting the guided deal and she was like..what..your getting counselling? [Hey,I'm glad that shocked her at least]

Hi zhenlijiang

Grammar books are not "don'ts" books, but "how about using this phrase?" books. They teach you how to use basic patterns systematically and comprehensively by showing useful examples. Grammar books are helpful and interesging especially after a few years of learning.

Let's say that you learned "今天比昨天冷" in a Chiesepod lesson today, and when will you learn (or encounter) "今天不比昨天冷" or "今天比昨天更冷"? Tomorrow? Or, next year? God knows. If you take a glance at a (thin) good grammer book, you can learn them at once today.

I have several "don'ts" (or common errors made by Japanese learners) book for Chinese, which I think are very useful for intermediate and above learners. You can enjoy experiencing a lot of "aha" moments when reading them. These books can serve as your private tutor.

I think that linguistically talented people don't need to rely on using grammar books and even dictionaries (?), because they can learn (or feel) grammatical rules instinctively and inductively through random conversations and readings, but I can't do this, unfortunately.

Hey baba, don't give up on your sentence writing here!  Have you ever heard a 2 year old talk, or a 4 year old, or a 6 year old? (Of course you have, you have kids).  Their sentence structure is terrible...but do they stop talking?  No!  And they don't read grammar books either ;)  They just need constant practice and constant correction.

We are like little Chinese babies here (but we're much uglier)...keep practicing and hopefully the good folks at cpod will correct our mistakes (though I know that's a big task).

@真-就是表达宇宙不断的改变，我们这些人类不断的搜查呀！

@baba - there's a little Monkey in you too mate!

到底是什么东西，将弄他的头像完成，我想知道。

sorry--this is certainly a Bad Chinese sentence!
For the record, I too welcome corrections on my BC--and BE, BJ as well--but do understand that poddies can't be expected to have that kind of time or take that kind of trouble ...

tal,

hehe,very witty yet again mate. :) I think it would be complete if you became the embodiment of the great sage,equal of heaven and after uttering your obscure Chinese words,you did that ..what do you call it?...action where you blow out and wave 2 fingers in front of your mouth as you summon your cloud.After all,the nature of monkey is IRREPRESSIBLE !

@xiaophil

I think you would sound more like your true self if you used slightly obscure words while speaking Chinese.  (That's a complement by the way.)

Cheers mate! So what makes it complete?

changye,

Actually you are right as far as I know.I have not seen example sentences on mdbg and it's a very good point that I think I should utilise.I must admit after finding a word in mdbg it can be a bit of a guess how to use it/whether it's appropriate and I think I definitely should look for example sentences.I must familiarise myself with nciku.Thanks,that's actually been extremely helpful I think. :)

Hi zhenlijiang

for the first six months we didn't even really do grammar, we were busy learning how to make sounds and say our own names

This must be the most ideal way to start learning Chinese, although it could become rather boring. I really admire both the teacher and her (?) students for their patience. I mean it.

I think nick is much better than MDBG as the latter shows no exmaple sentences (am I right?). I dare say that MDBG is just "useless" for elementary and intermediate learners. 

Hi tal

"Tuttle" seems to be good. It shows only important words and phrases, and examples and supplemental explanations shown in it is very useful. Probably you can use it for a long time.

Tal

I think you would sound more like your true self if you used slightly obscure words while speaking Chinese.  (That's a complement by the way.)

I really like the Tuttle Concise English-Chinese Dictionary, it really stops the papers blowing around on my desk, (the fans are always on in Guangdong in the summer.) Seriously though it has lots of example sentences. Sometimes I'll just pick it up and browse, and it's surprising how just doing that, you'll pick up lots of little things you didn't know, and you can't really browse any 'electronic' dictionary in the same way.

I'm sure if baba chose to study grammar from a book it couldn't do his writing ability any harm, (there has to be a certain amount of fairly mundane 'looking at language' mate if you want to really improve your skill), but I do agree with zhen that reading (just going over and through sweet and well-written sentences again and again) can teach you a lot. (And you can do this with a good dictionary.)

Changye, I don't know that it's a good grammar book that Bababardwan or other learners in a similar place need most at this point. Of course I always recommend that learners get into a small group class or find a good tutor--unlike you I'm not confident enough to try to learn a language without at least one good teacher holding my hand. But I understand that this is not realistic for many people.

The grammar I have learned (and like I've said before, for the first six months we didn't even really do grammar, we were busy learning how to make sounds and say our own names) has been through using readers that show us constructions and usage, and being required to write our own sentences as homework--no strictly-grammar books to date, and I've been studying now nearly three years. 

You point out that Japanese dictionaries are also good for learning about grammar.  My other (very good actually) grammar source has been the NHK (Japanese public broadcaster) radio Mandarin courses that come with texts every month. These courses are solid and engaging, very well designed and lessons well written. And it's good to make the time M-F, 15 min each lesson to listen, if you do nothing else. Each half-year course would have about 100 points to cover (if I remember correctly the first two weeks or so is mainly pinyin and pronunciation). I've listened to those for about two years and have begun to tire of the repetition esp at the beginning, but they always have something for the intermediate learner as well. The difference with CPod lessons is that the dialogues are mostly much more textbook-y of course, but they do cover grammar well, and take the absolute beginner in manageable steps through to what I think is high elementary level in that half-year.
I wish that all learners had that great a source, wherever in the world they're studying.

But grammar books--I think that's more for more advanced (otaku?) learners. English grammar we first did I think in middle school (? my memory isn't too hot), ages anyway, after we were already fluent and using it to communicate. We weren't learning grammar in order to become fluent in English; we were learning the terminology and learning how to deconstruct sentences (make diagrams) and talk about them. Many grammar books I see in Japan, from the titles I just know I don't want to be near them "Common Errors by Japanese Students of Mandarin and Why They're Common" and such (the author just wants to show slower students up!).

What I do think is helpful instead is to read a lot of young children's literature--that's just right for our level. Try to get an illustrated Chinese dictionary for young children and use it.  I know not everyone loves children's books like I do, but I'm assuming Baba for one wouldn't mind that too much ...

And writing now--that's another thing altogether. Which I will get to.

sebire,

I've not really had a good look at nciku before ,but I just had a look and if they're the stars I think others are referring to ..if you mouse over them then it says it is referring to the HSK number.So once again I'd say mdbg has it better than nciku on this front because the hsk numbers are just easier to see in mdbg than these faint yellow stars in nciku and trying to work out how many are coloured in.

What on earth are those star things on nciku, I've never worked them out. Everything seems to be 2.5 stars. I unfortunately find nciku ridiculously slow, so I use it at times, but recently have been going to dict.cn.

I quite like my Oxford English-Chinese mini-dictionary.

I must say,while my usual dictionary is mdbg [I just prefer the layout..find it visually clearer,and I like the scissors tool of breaking down characters] I have on occasion gone to nciku when I just couldn't find a word in mdbg at all like today I couldn't find carotenaemia in mdbg but nciku was up to the task on this one.So I have kind of come to the conclusion that nciku is more comprehensive ,but generally for me mdbg is fine and I like the hsk ratings also.It would be great for it to go beyond hsk ratings and have a more precise frequency of usage rating and an oral/written indication.Also,there are probably many features of these dictionaries that I have just not gotten around to exploring at this stage.

duh--nciku does use the star system. That's probably why I like them.

Ah I hardly know where to begin. OK, with the dictionaries then.

First, a 'disclaimer':  I am a huge fan of paper dictionaries. That said, the dictionary I use most frequently--and I use it very very frequently--is my electronic one containing one J-C, two C-Js (between which I jump back and forth trying to pin down one expression I want) and a few 'extra' not-as-commendable dictionaries like "new business terminology", "IT terminology" etc (= bound to be outdated v. soon).

I looked up "wonder" on both MDBG and nciku, my preferred English-Chinese dictionary. So I can see now how Bababardwan came to choose 忖度.  But compare the search results--don't you think nciku does this more intuitively (go to Examples for their long list of English example sentences rendered in Chinese), in this case at least?
This is just me personally, I've looked at MDBG when I first heard about it here and for some reason didn't like it enough to ever use it, even though everything is nice and large and easy to see.  nciku on the other hand I go to all the time  esp when I'm "composing" one of my dog-breakfast Chinese posts. I do have paper English-Chinese dictionaries, but both (Langenscheidt and Concise Oxford) are too concise, too pocket though I did use them more as a beginner. As for Chinese-English, I have the large ABC edited by John DeFrancis one, but that has virtually no examples (=not useful)!

I never really gave thought to this until Changye mentioned it; I think we Japanese learners take for granted what our dictionaries so helpfully provide: markings, color codes, something indicating the frequency of any character or word that is an entry is only one of such features. We often see the star system. Entries with three stars we know are most high frequency. In fact I have heard a scholar--who has himself been on the compiling team of several Japanese dictionaries of Chinese--say, you know you're doing well even if you study only those terms with three, two and then one star (for starters anyway), as those are the most important.
The point is, in fact you should study those first. I also agree with Changye that our exam-oriented approach has made our publishers as competitive as they are and our dictionaries so GS (good service)--Xiaophil, I have to say I don't agree that we generally have less material in English because the need for English speakers to learn foreign languages is less acute or urgent.
Yet, or rather precisely because of, the Japanese approach (thinking in terms of efficient exam prepping) we're terrible at foreign languages, sad but true.

And whether in a class or working with a tutor, teachers in my experience always tell you if any word is 'for writing' and 'not oral'.  That's essential in learning Chinese, we're taught that early on.  Not to have that information would be like studying French nouns without their genders.
But so are we seeing that this is a major problem area with English dictionaries of Chinese in general?
That's kind of a serious problem IMO.

Changye and Origina

I had an Oxford Chinese/English dictionary.  I thought it was pretty 'horse horse tiger tiger'.  Although I completely agree with what you guys said, I think there is another factor.  People in English speaking countries don't have the need to learn other languages like other countries do, so the material is just simply more limited no matter what the language.  I really admire you, changye, for being able to thrive here without ever resorting to your native tongue.

Hi orangina

I have never seen an English/Chinese (or C/E) dictionary that good.

I suspect so now. As you said, Japan has traditionally produced a lot of scholars who have profound knowledge about classical Chinese literatures, and this probably made editing Chinese dictionaries relatively easy. Actually, the largest Chinese dictionary (to be exact, Chinese/Japanese dictionary) in the world was edited and published by Japanese. Please just take a look at "history" in the Wikipedia article below. It's very impressing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_Kan-Wa_jiten

Additionally, Japanese scholars and publishers have been very keen to make language dictionaries targeted for students and learners, partly thanks to so-called "university entrance war" in Japan, which has consequently evolved this kind of dictionaries drastically, especially English and Chinese ones, in the past few decades. Ironically, Japanese people are known for not being good at foreign languages despite a lot of good dictionaries sold in Japan, hehe.

Changye, I have never seen an English/Chinese (or C/E) dictionary that good. And I check whenever I go to a bookstore. Not that that means they don't exist. My dictionary has often received the wall treatment for not telling me if a word is only used in written Chinese. Seems like such a simple thing to include.  I have a feeling there is much more cross scholarship between China and Japan than China and England. (I have also not run across a dictionary that uses American English. Only a problem when I can't figure out which English word to look up!)

Its cool guys, it was actually quite interesting. What I'll do is delete the comments from the post but link to this post from the lesson.

This way we can maintain the new method yet save all your comments. :D

Hi bababardwan

I have very good Chinese/Japanese (and J/C) dictionaries. They show a lot of grammatical, cultural and historic tips, including distinction between a written and colloquial word, suggestions about synonyms and important grammatical structures. These dictionaries were edited in collaboration with a famous Chinese publisher which is well known for 《现代汉语词典》 that shows a sort of the standard vocaburary of modern Mandarin.

I believe the latest editions are better than mine (published in 1992). There are several good Chinese dictionaries available in Japan. Honestly, I know almost nothing about how good Chinese dictionaries are in other countries. Of course, I also often use online dictionaries, as well as google, especially when I look up a new word. I need both paper and online dictionaries. Paper dictionaries can't catch up with the times.

Hi matt

Many thanks for your consideration. We should have done this earlier, sorry!

xiaophil,

Still,she's in less of a position to decline his very unambiguous request than if he'd more circumspectly asked to be excused. :) Is there also a cultural difference at play there,rather than a language difference? But it's a good point that I get,hehe.

Hey Matt,

Thanks for moving that mate.I'm sure you realise I was not trying to be drivelly or stray,it just went that way.Sorry about that.I'll have to learn to flick the switch to a new separate thread earlier next time.I think there's one more comment from changye there that needs to be transferred here,then maybe you should delete it all from that thread.I don't think I can do it properly from this end.

One of my friends was teaching class when a Chinese student asked, "Ms., can I please go defecate?"  I know this is a bit crude (and I am a bit sorry for that), but still, it is a perfect example of exactly what is being talked about here (and a bit funny as far as I'm concerned).