日语 汉语 英语

I've learnt more

Lovers of Japanese comedy might enjoy this metafilter thread I've recently perused. Oototototo!

Hey if anybody's interested and doesn't mind wading through a mostly Japanese-language website, the Tokyo University of Foreign Languages 東京外国語大学 has some nice modular language learning materials available here. Select the language you want to study from the column on the left, under 言語の選択. Once in the language page, the column on the left will have tabs marked "P", "D", "G" and "V"--for Pronunciation, Dialog, Grammar and Vocab. Unless you read Japanese, I don't think you'll be interested in any of the modules besides D.

Once in the Dialog modules page, you can press the button "EN" to get English text.

Well so for Mandarin--we can listen to (very dry compared to CPod material of course!) Elementary to Intermediate level dialogues in "普通话" "北京普通话" "苏州普通话" and "台湾普通话". (Um stick to the ones that say 教室用 "for classroom use" maybe, because I can't figure out how to use the ones that are marked 学習者用.) Wow. I find the Suzhou-accented putonghua most challenging. Interesting!
You can select out of 4 patterns of playing the dialog. Says pattern 1 is designed to optimize learning one or the other speaker's lines, pattern 2 for seeing the text while you play the audio and try to write down the lines, pattern 3 for learning the entire dialogue, and pattern 4 for role-playing exercises.
You can also choose to show or hide subtitles in that language and Japanese.

For other languages--French for example has dialogues in only "French" and "Quebec French". German has "German", "Viennese German" and "Zurich German".

I guess this resource isn't new or anything; it's just new to me. I like listening to the different Mandarin accents, and thought some others may also.

Hi zhenlijiang

素晴らしいＪＡＺＺのストリーミングサイトを発見、あまりの嬉しさにご報告させていただく次第です。そちら様の音楽的嗜好はまったく無視です。笑　このサイトでは、ジャンル別にチャンネルを選べるのです（ボサノバやラテンジャズもあり）。今はピアノトリオを聴きながらこのコメントを書いています。若い頃からジャズとクラシック大好きでして、よーするに完全にオヤジ趣味なんですが、もし興味がありましたらぜひクリックしてやってみて下さい。翻訳作業のＢＧＭには最適かと思います。アニメ主題歌のサイトがあればいいのですが、著作権の関係で難しいのでしょうね。

http://www.jazzradio.com/

ＰＳ　このサイトのせいで、外国語ニュース「垂れ流し学習」の時間が大幅に減ってしまいそうです。涙　そうそう、ちなみにクラシックのお奨めサイトはこちら。

http://www.wguc.org/listen/streams.asp

本日、当地は（たぶん）今年一番の暑さ。そのため、総経理から「生ビールを飲むぞ」との号令がかかり、病み上がりのくせにハルピン生ビールをジョッキで５杯飲んでしまいました。今の私は完璧に睡眠モードです。幸か不幸か、良い子の早寝は実行できそうですが、肝心の早起きがどうなることやら全く保証の限りではありません。朝目覚めたら、ヤフーニュースで「日本队好不容易出线了」との吉報に接することができますように。売国奴だな、こりゃ。笑

I think there should be a JPod!!!! I see a lot of interested pple here!!!

When will there be a JAPANESE POD?? I want to learn!!!!!!!!!!!

慣行に反したビール抜き観戦が奏功したのか、なんと日本が１点リードしています。前半が引き分けなら「つまらん」と文句を言いながら寝てしまう予定だったのですが、ちょっと欲が出てきました。ちゃっかりしてます。この試合に勝って波に乗り、調子こいて次のオランダ戦を引き分けに持ち込む、なんてのは虫が良すぎますかね。ああ、後半が恐ろしい。

Changye 先輩こんなときに風邪ですか！しかし感冒药鸡尾酒自体、感心いたしませんね。私は風邪はひいてしまったら終わるまでなるべく安静にしてほっとくしかないという考えで、風邪薬というものをもう何十年も使っていません。その上ビールなんて！デフォ、ですね。まあわかりますけれど・・・今日のところは我慢しましょう。そして前半くらい付き合いましょう！

ヤケというか、もう何を望めというのでしょう。トゥーリオ君と岡ちゃんだけでも現地でちゃんといい祈祷師さんを紹介してもらってお祓いしてもらっていることを願うのと、とにかく今しかできないことをするために選ばれた彼らには、輝きを見せて欲しいのです。やってて楽しくないサッカーなんか見たくありません。それでは、もうそろそろピッチに出てきますね。しっかり応援しましょう

Hi zhenlijiang

半ばヤケ気味とも思えるコメントですが、なぜか心に響きます。笑　当方、本日は夕刻より風邪の初期症状で苦しんでおり、先ほどルルとツムラの漢方をちゃんぽんで飲んだばかり。中国時間午後１０時からのカメルーン戦を見ようかどうか、いまだ決めかねております。初戦くらいはビール片手に観戦しようかと思って いたのですが、その前にしっかり感染してしまいました。今日のところは、「隼」の朗報を胸に抱きつつ、「良い子は早寝」を実践してしまうかも知れません。 いくら何でも、薬のちゃんぽんの後にビールはちとマズかろうと。笑　いやなに、サッカー観戦にビールはデフォなものですから。やっぱり、前半くらいはお付 き合いしようかな ........。

中国の悩める日本男児

みなさまこんばんは。

★　日本代表は勝たなくていい、ただ定められた時間のなかで輝いて見せて　くれればいい！　★

ちょっと叫んでみました、アハハ

Hi zhenlijiang

我现在才发觉，“汤婆，锡夫人，脚婆”这些词的含义其实很深，确实“耐人寻味”。冬天晚上睡觉脚冷，很遗憾你是一个男光棍儿，床上没有女人温暖你的脚，那么要怎么办才好？你不必担心，家里有一个代替品叫“锡夫人”！这位“夫人”不仅不吃饭，还不浪费钱，不罗嗦，也可以算是一个男人理想的“老婆”。但是很可惜，这么朴实温和的“老婆”也有一个小毛病。“她”虽然晚上在床上很热情地为你服务，不过第二天早上醒来的时候“她”对你的态度却很“冷漠”，没有晚上那么“温暖”。这是不是有人所说的“一夜情”？

Changyeさん，

你说得这种reverse cultural shock太有同感了！对我而言这种shock不仅来自美国文化，还来自一部分的日本文化，所以是双重shock！让我吃不消了（笑）。

你和Zhenlijiangさん的对话很有意思，新的外来语「ロートル」吗？不过我看你的个人介绍不是说你是中年男子吗？应该不至于称呼「ロートル」吧？呵呵！

我有一个高中好友现在在日本，他本来是到东京一间公司工作的，后来考取了东大和东北大的研究生，最后选择了东北大，就搬到仙台去了。本来我就很想到日本去尽情地玩一下和亲自体验一下那些在动漫和日剧里出现过的场景，看了他在日本拍的照片让我更想去了！去年在成田转机时只有12小时时间而且是晚上，就没有出成田。下次回国时希望能去东京秋叶原“淘宝”一下！

Zhenlijiangさん，

你的中文写作太棒了！我觉得你的中文水平按cpod的level来分的话应该属于advanced以上，读起来很自然，很“中文”，呵呵。

我在上海念本科时班上有个日本女孩子，从大二开始跟她关系比较好。有次她回国时还特地给我带了日本版的fami通和少年jump给我做お土産！要知道对于我这种准“お宅”来说能入手这两本杂志的日本原版可是能让我高兴得跳起来的事！呵呵！

可是大三以后她好像转到别的校区了，再也没有见到她，挺想念的。

我现在在的美国大学里也有不少日本同学，上学期我还参加了日本学生会办的Japanese Conversation Club，认识了几位日本同学。这学期在日本学生会的after callout party里又认识了几位新同学。可是这些日本朋友对我而言只能算浅交，没有机会能和他们深入交往，残念ですね。

你所说的日本文化中considerate背后的“疏远，不亲近”我想之前通过各种渠道有所感受。我想这应该日本文化里なか和そと的概念吧？对于我个人来说，这种文化有它的vertu：比起表面上很热情很亲近，其实内心很见外（比如美国文化和中国文化），这种外和里的概念能让圈内人觉得很有归属感和认同感，而一旦圈外人能付出努力让圈内人真正接受的话，这种类型的友谊和人际关系我想要可靠得多。

去年夏天搭乘ANA航班回国时在东京成田转机，站在入境口的扶手电梯下降时我看到了对面墙上的三行大字：分别是「おかえりなさい」，"Welcome to Japan"，“欢迎访问日本”。这一行 「おかえりなさい」突然让我觉得很感动，同时也让我觉得这是“里”和“外”文化的一个绝好的例子。我google了一下，觉得下面的评论很经典：
「そうだな。「おかえりなさい」ってのは、本来家族の中で交わす挨拶。 だから、成田に帰ってきた日本人は、一気に「１億２千万人の家族」の 一員であることを実感させられる。すげえよな、これって。 
ただね、日本在住の外国人（または外国生まれの日本人）にも、あの 「おかえりなさい」を見て、ジーンとしてる人がいるんじゃないかね。」

这只是我对里和外概念的浅薄的理解，欢迎指正。

如你所说，中国和日本在学多方面都有不同，但是同在东亚共同存在了几千年，我们的文化在许多方面都是相通的，是可以相互交流和学习的。我在想，什么时候在回国时能看到入境口那儿也有标语写道“欢迎回家”呢？哎，不仅仅是一行标语能解决的啊。

啊。。そば吗？我也喜欢吃，但是不怎么会做。有一次买了一包冷冻荞麦面回来，一直没有调料，就白白地放在冷冻室里过期了（哭）。

新年快乐！

Changye，我又不好意思了 ...

すみません！軽率でした。「パンパン」については辞書で中国語起源説を見たような気がしていたのですが勘違いだったのでしょう。大変お手数をおかけしてしまいました。

「デブ姫」（ごめんなさい）様の寝息は見るからに熱そうですけれど、足元にいてもらうわけにもいきませんものね。お布団の下では窒息してしまうので。

とても面白い「湯」と「婆」のお話、ありがとうございます。
中日辞典で「汤婆」で探してみると「汤婆子」（方）という見出しが出てきました。そして锡夫人· 脚婆 · 汤媪　ともいうんですね。暖足瓶。金属制品，宋时已有。　←　百度百科からです。

私が愛用しているのも真鍮製です。
では、そろそろお湯を沸かして休み支度に入ります。

Hi zhenlijiang

興味本位であれこれ調べてみたのですが、どうやら語源の定説はないみたいですね、その「パンパン」には。女性には赤面モノの説も含め、いくつかの語源候補があるようです。以下ご参考まで。

http://wapedia.mobi/ja/%E3%83%91%E3%83%B3%E3%83%91%E3%83%B3

私も熱烈な「湯たんぽ」愛好家の一人です。今年は当地のスチーム事情が悪く、室温がなかなか２０度まで上がりません。我が家のデブ犬と「同衾」するだけでは熱量が不足気味なんです。笑

「たん」と「ぽ」はどちらも唐音なのですが、それぞれの背景にちょっとした違いがあります。婆（ぽ, po）の隋唐時代の発音は"buar"(= ば)でして、それが宋代あたりから"po"に変化しました。

その一方、湯の中国音は古代から現代まで一貫して"tang"なのです。この子音と母音の組み合わせがよほど安定したものだったという証左ですね。隋唐時代、日本はこの音を「たう(とう)」で転写しました。

"ang"という母音が当時の日本語に馴染まなかったため、「う」で代用した訳です。で、後に中国で湯婆を"tang-po"と発音するようになった頃、日本人はその単語と音「たんぽ」をそのまま輸入したのでした。

お粗末さまです。

啊！ Changye 我真的不好意思了！我还是老样子，拼命地‘串词典’才能挤出来这样的拙文，真的。

ああいったコメントをひとつ書くのにどれだけの時間を費やし脳みその汗を流していることか．．．

申し遅れました。
新年明けましておめでとうございます。

アハハ「ゲートル」は今、辞書を引いてみました。 guêtre ですか。私の
世代の人はあまり知らないのではないか、と...　　:-P
ロートルはそうですね、死語ですね。あと、いい言葉ではないのですが
「パンパン」というのも中国語からですよね？

「湯湯婆」は最近また支持されているんですよ、こちらでは。私も使って
います。あ、「たん・ぽ」は唐音、とありますね。
こういうのは「チゲ鍋」、もですよね？テレビなどでも相変わらず「挙式を挙げる」や「日本に来日する」などと耳にすることがありますが、あれは
イラっとしますね。

本年もまた、私たちの知的欲求を刺激してくれる豊富な「余談」と、また
予断を許さぬオヤジギャグ弾に数多く出会えることを心より楽しみにしております。

OK, I guess I've used up my 日语 quota for the month already. But whatever language I can keep up in, it's always a pleasure!

Hi zhenlijiang

新年明けましておめでとうございます。

はい、おっしゃるとおり、すでに日本への社会復帰がほぼ不可能なまでに、私の生活習慣と思考方式は中国化してしまっております。まあ、それが故に中国での長期滞在が可能になっているのではありますが。笑

今では死語となっている「ゲートル」がフランス語起源の外来語だそうですから、たぶん「ロートル」もそうなのではと思う方がいるかも知れません......冗談です。この「ロートル」も死語なんでしょうねぇ、おそらく。

余談ですが、実は「湯たんぽ」も中国起源の外来語だそうですが、ご存知でしたか？オリジナルは「汤婆」だとか。つまり日本語の「湯たんぽ」は「汤汤婆」となり、見事に「馬から落ちて落馬」した状態になっています。

本年もよろしくお願い申し上げます。

追伸　まったくもう、あなたの中国語の進歩には目を見張るばかりですなあ、困ります。笑

Changye 先輩、

逆カルチャーショックですか．．．もしかして、もう日本では生活できそうにない、ですか？

私は今年になって初めてロートルという「日本語」が老头儿だということを知りました。

なんだかんだ言って「紅白」を見ながら、年賀状のデザインを考えながら、平和に新年を迎えようとしております。 Susan Boyle 女史が先ほど歌いましたよ。

本年は大変お世話になりました！

よいお年をお迎えください。

Cheng 同学，你好。

Zhenlijiang 说的很对。中国人和日本人的思维方式有很多不同的地方，不过我认为一般来说民族之间的文化差异越大越有意思，更有研究的价值。话虽这么说，听说有些中国海归回国之后因为不习惯中国生活而不得不返回原来的国家，可见克服文化差异并不是一个简单的事情。其实呢，我这个日本老头也一样。每次回到日本，和同事吃饭喝酒，我就有"独在异乡为异客"的感觉，很想中国的老朋友！

Cheng さん,　你好！

我所发表的没有什么深度的哦～　可能是一种跟 Changye 师兄交流的好效果，呵呵！新来的朋友们一看就会认为我说的话也值得一读（这是让我有点儿不好意思的，我不想骗人） ...

他国朋友讲日本文化‘最有魅力的地方'无疑很好听，因为我是日本人。你平常有机会和日本人面对面交流吗？你印象中的日本文化--细腻，含蓄和体贴--我觉得这些形容词都很恰当。同时，也可以这样说吧： considerate 的背面是‘疏远，见外，不亲热'，可以说有这个方面。我听到过好几次，来到日本的中国人对这方面感到的困惑。他们发现在日本人与人要保持一段（跟中国人际关系并不同的）距离，发现这是可不容易适应的。反过来说，日本人初次到中国旅游的时候一定会发现，中国人容易和人亲近，暖人心怀（如果你会说一点点中文的话，中国人更热情地欢迎你）。初次去中国大陆以后入‘中国迷'的日本人不少啊。

我不是说哪个好或哪个应该改善，而是说这个差异确实存在。

我的历届中文老师们之中，几位是（在日本的大学读研究生的）80后。根据我个人的经验，我也认为中国80后将来是中国的栋梁之材。

中国人和日本人想法，世界观，人生观不同。互相加强理解（和了解）是无穷无尽的题目，也是一种乐趣。我们好好学习，多看多听，积极交流吧！

真是我的中文很乱，哎。请你见谅。

那我要去吃过年荞麦面 ...
祝大家过个好年！

很有趣，很有深度的帖子，特别是Zhenlijiangさん和Changyeさん发表的，让我对日本，日本人，日本文化有了新的有深度的了解。我从初二开始对日本流行文化感兴趣（动漫，电玩，电影），并且通过它们自学了些日语。对我而言日本文化最有魅力的地方是她的细腻，含蓄和体贴（可能不大恰当的形容词，我想表达的是considerate）。可能受日本文化影响较深，最近几年（特别是来美国后）发现跟国人交往时对他们不注意考虑别人感受的做法越来越感到反感。现在的中国大陆的人际关系和主流文化绝对是有问题的，我想主要原因应该是10年浩劫中把人与人之间的信任和一些基本人权、人性都给破坏了。我是80后，我想中国大陆应该会慢慢变好的，等我们这一代人开始成为社会栋梁之时。

Cheng

Ranch99 explained here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Ranch_Market

Hi xiaohu

Yes, some Japanese dialects are very different from standard Japanese. They are too different for Tokyo people to follow/understand. In particular, Okinawa-dialect, spoken in Japan's southern most prefecture, is more an independent language than a dialect.

That said, it's linguistically proven than Okinawa dialect also belongs to the Japanese language without doubt. I think that the distance between Mandarin and Cantonese should be larger than that between standard Japanese and Okinawa dialect.

Hi xiaohu

Japan/Japanese are very different from China/Chinese, although a lot of Japanese things are originated in China.

Zhenlijiang,

I didn't think you were calling me annoying, it's just, sometimes I can be annoying.

No, I'm not from L.A. originally.  I don't think I'll ever get used to life here.  People in this town think far too much of themselves.  I'm sure you've heard this before.

It's interesting what you said about 爱国, here in America we're always spouting off about how wonderful our country is, we live in the best nation in the world, but I don't know if any of us really know what it's like to truly love our country.  But because it's the motherland people just naturally 爱自己的国家.

I thought all Japanese were extremely patriotic, just like the Chinese.  

Changye,

WOW!  Good memory!  

Don't worry about it, I can sometimes be a very excitable guy.  I'm trying hard to mellow out, I've done far too much yelling around here.  I can't get over how great it is to see people here really actively using Chinese to communicate, this is awesome!  Xiaophil, Calkins, present company of course.

Calkins is an awesome C-Pod success story, when he got here 2 years ago he didn't even know 你好, and now look, he's penning stories in Chinese!  

I still like Japanese.  I recall that conversation you speak of, it was between me and a guy who had learned Japanese because he so admired the quality of Japanese engineering that he learned Japanese and lived in Japan for several years.

I remember the stories my translator friend told me about Japan, the way he made it sound was like paradise.

I've never been but would like very much to go.  I was invited once to go with a friend and stay at his relatives house in Hiroshima, but it kind of freaked me out to think about staying at what was once ground zero, so I didn't end up going.  I really wanted to see Osaka.

So, regarding Japanese dialects, are there any that are as diverse as some 方言?  Or are they all pretty close to standard Tokyo Japanese?

Xiaohu,

Ah so you're not from LA originally.
Well yeah that's what I mean by a deceptively easy time in LA for those Japanese I met. Too many of them were aimless, just goofing off. It was all false, as they found out when they weren't young any more.

My point was not that you're annoying. It was that I think most people don't take it well when their country gets spoken of in that manner in their presence. It's not a Japanese thing, a nationalist thing, or even a personal thing really. And it is regardless of their ability to take a pretty objective view of the realities.

It is not my style at all to go around saying I love my country! Patriotism, if any Japanese are even aware they've got it, is generally a very dull blade (we don't get the kind of 爱国 education Chinese kids do, or American kids for that matter). 
I just find I sort of get forced to it around here sometimes.

Changye,

I guess I know that (I don't read everything certainly, but I have read some old discussions around here).
I had to stop and wonder if the "clever guy" you refer to wouldn't have been me, because I do recall saying almost exactly the same myself. But maybe that was a different time you're talking about.

Hi zhenlijiang

I understand your sentiment about Japan very well, which you explained in detail in your previous comment. People love their own countries, including both good and bad points, even if they're on a decline, hehe. Such is the mother country, and the same is true for most people in the world.

Conversely, it's inevitable that people look at foreign countries from the standpoing of "pragmatism" such as economical power, job hunting and hobbies. In general, people who don't have much money, like me, might be able to feel more comfortable in some ways in developing countries than in advanced countries.

Actually xiaohu has mellowed very much compared to before (xiaohu, sorry, no offense!). I still remember that he complained a lot about Japan and Japanese people in his comment a few years ago, in which he praised China and Chinese people at the same time.

Then a (Japanese?) guy responsed to xiaohu saying something along the line of "When you praise something, you don't need to demean other thing." or "You don't need to demean other thing in order to praise something" (sorry for poor English) In this case I completely agree with that "clever" guy. 

Zhenlijiang,

No, I didn't think you meant me, don't worry.  But I've come to realize I am, in fact, quite annoying.

I'm really glad you learned some new words.  That's precisely why I put Chinese into my posts, even if it's mixed in with English.  I have to stick by my own cardinal rule, that we are all here collectively to realize one goal, 就是一起学会中文的目标。Whatever level one aspires to, whether it's to just learn to speak or to learn to read, write and speak, this community is a place to help each other realize this dream.

Actually Tvan taught me a new word today, 简而言之 (in a nutshell), kudos Tvan!  

That's why I always maintain that we really CAN socialize and learn at the same time.  I've yelled loud and long, and made myself look like a 疯子 in process, time and time again in an effort to help people realize that.  说实在的 the thorn that keeps on sticking into my side is when I log into the community and see so much English posted in Intermediate, Upper Intermediate and Advanced forums.  I know that people are a lot more capable then they give themselves credit for, and if they'd just try a bit harder to write whatever Chinese they know, and not fear the difficult phase, the easy phase will quickly follow.

I'm tremendously glad to see that recently there have been a lot more Chinese posts.

Anyway, I'll come down off my soapbox.

I don't know why you'd feel you have no place in other discussions, you have a place in every discussion as a valued member of this community!  I don't know why it's taken us this long for our paths to intersect, but I'm really happy that they have!

L.A. isn't that easy of a place to live in anymore.  

Actually, I don't think I every experienced that easy life you're speaking of.  I moved out of my parents house and came here without a college degree or anything beyond a high school education to become an actor.  I had to work three jobs to support myself and never had time for auditions, so there went the acting dream.  For me, life in L.A. has always been，很辛苦的。

The San Gabriel Valley is the only place in Southern California that I really like.  I felt that way before I started studying Chinese, when I'd come here from Long Beach to find Japanese people that I could practice my Japanese with.  I found that there were surprisingly few, there were only a few Sushi and Shabu Shabu places, and most of those places have closed down, or been purchased by Chinese entrepreneurs. 

I like Arcadia and Rowland Heights, but the heart of the L.A. Chinese community is still Monterey Park, Alhambra and San Gabriel.  I like these three places the best.  Apparently the L.A. Chinese have their sites set on San Marino.  Who can blame them, it's beautiful!  After that, it's on to Pasadena!

No I don't Changye, which is my point.

Hi zhenlijiang

Do you think that "最近どう？/ マジで～？" are polite Japanese?

Xiaohu,

I hope you didn't think I meant you here:

I get quite annoyed by idiotic or rude behavior, and have often very clearly told people off for it.

Just to clarify--when I do call such behavior I will use those words, "rude" "idiotic" etc. in my complaint so there can be no mistake.

Thanks for sharing the "Japanese dialogue" with Masa-san. I learned 滔滔不绝 and the chengyu 唯唯诺诺.
I wonder how much English this Masa-san spoke. That's another thing about LA. I think in those days anyway life there was (deceptively) easy. So I met quite a few younger Japanese who'd been living there for years on only the most rudimentary of English vocab and ability. Then they'd have a terrible time if they tried to come back to live in Japan, unable to adjust back from such an "easy life", so much freedom and space.

Tvan, yes. I would never argue that kanji is not a stumbling block / deterrent.

Changye, I too think it's enough for people to learn to speak polite Japanese. But that seems to be just the problem. There are foreigners who have learned how to say stuff like 最近どう？ or マジで～？ etc. (which are not rude per se) and try to use it all the time, not getting what tone is conveyed when you talk like that, not knowing the difference or what is appropriate for the situation.

Hi Baba, this thread is just a place I started to talk about Japanese in relation to Chinese and stuff. I've used it from time to time since as a place to bring my comments when I felt they had no place in other discussions.

Xiaohu,

I know about the dragon in China. We don't refer much to it in Japanese culture actually. I just don't think of three Japanese united making a dragon. Well, the saying is telling anyhow, it's a Chinese perspective, cautioning against dismissing the Japanese.

I was going to say yes I've been to the San Gabriel valley several times. Friends living in Pasadena at the time took me to Arcadia I think it was for Chinese, and also somewhere else for Vietnamese, we also went to look in a Ranch 99 (don't remember which one).
I also had a weekly appointment with a Chinese acupuncturist in Rosemead but stopped going because I found the 40-minute drive back west after the electrostimulation session (sounds and looks awful, twitching under the infrared heater, needles stuck all over me and electrodes clamped to them, but it was quite relaxing) reversed much of the therapeutic effects.

And it was actually early 90s, not late 80s, that I had started going to LA regularly, so only for about four years rather than six (I was there for the riots, experienced curfew). Anyway, there isn't any place like LA. It's unique.

cy38250

我当然知道李小龙，他就是我最喜欢的中国演员。他的确是个很有魅力和很有想法的人。“截拳道”这个武功式就是他自己创造的。他特别的厉害！

《卧虎藏龙》这部电影有一个人物叫“小虎”，他就是“小龙”章子怡演的人物的对象。不瞒你说，看《卧虎藏龙》时，我一见章子怡的漂亮的脸就恋爱了全中国啦！我知道现在对很多中国人来说章子怡意味着中国被西化的现象，但在我眼里章子怡永远代表中国的魅力。

Dear Zhen, 

Thank you for your response! Actually any suggestion to eat / go is good. We stay in Tokyo for Christmas 24-27 and just looking for some nice places to go / eat. I do have LP and other "city guides", but I like input from "locals" :-P.

Actually, sometimes (few times a year) I do eat meat / fish but it has to be "biological" so I know the animal had a good life etc. etc. :-).

daniel70

None taken whatsoever.

:) 

XiaoHu ... I wrote a comment referring to your post ... I then decided to delete it ... that "translate" link was put in there by the system. I don't know how or why. If XiaoHu means something other than little tiger, it's news to me. I wasn't trying to be clever. Apologies if I caused offence.

zhenlijiang

Please remember that, in Chinese culture the dragon is the symbol of power and magesty.  I believe it's much the same as in your own culture.  United you become powerful, just as powerful as the mighty 龙!

Chanelle--no! And I have a terrible speaking voice anyway.

So sorry I haven't responded yet, trying to get to your question too. Are you vegan, or just not a meat/fish eater? Which dates exactly would you be here? Pls PM me if you like.

The sushi place I go to in Tokyo when I do go is kind of out of the way, and the thing is they really only do sushi so you would not have anything to eat there. Personally I've recently been weaning myself away from white rice and finding sushi much less appetizing than I used to, but let me think some more.

小虎" (Xiao Hu）is a common name in China,it means little tiger ,only some areas in northeast China it means “obtuse”，especially among some youth！It is a common name just like 小猫xiaomao（little cat）小龙xiaolong（little dragon），you may know the actor Bruce Lee ，his chinese name is Li xiaolong~

daniel70

Apparently my Chinese isn't as good as I once thought it to be.  I though that "小虎" (Xiao Hu) translates to "Little Tiger", but apparently, after much exhaustive research I've found that it actually translates to "obtuse" .

Just as the saying goes, you learn something new every day.

I think, I will end up learning Japanese via Chinese someday :-).

Whether it is Jpod or not. Btw. If there will be a Jpod I know 3 excellent host: Zhen, Changye & John (he knows also Japanese right?)!

One of my Chinese textbooks is written in German (English was sold out), so I often find myself switching between German / English / Chinese / Dutch and not only do I learn Chinese that way: also, (still) I learn new things in English / German (started with EN when I was 8 so have been learning that for over 2 decades and never picked up "duvet" :-P).

Another textbook is in English / Chinese AND Japanese and I notice my eyes wandering to the Japanese translations .....looking for similarities / structures etc... so I know it is just a matter of time...

When I was 4 years old my mom gave me a Bobby & Kate jumbo pencil which said "made in Japan". I remember being fascinated by that country far away! Funny how life goes...

zhen, I fear you are just expecting too much of people. So many these days really aren't able to think and/or feel for themselves, and the media stereotypes and petty 'what's hot and what's not' mindset is the best they can manage.

Xiaohu,

I get quite annoyed by idiotic or rude behavior, and have often very clearly told people off for it.
But should anyone ever catch me telling or pressuring someone here not to speak their mind (which can always be done without being rude or behaving like an idiot) then I should get lost. I would never mean that, even if I don't agree with something someone says.

Mmm I'm not sure how best to say this.
It's strange to me you see, that I have to explain that I don't enjoy people describing my country (well within my earshot, and this wasn't at all the first time) as washed-up basically, unattractive, lacklustre, already in the past and still declining. That I have to say I bristle at it being the object of superficial, consumerist attraction anyway. Hard to understand why I have to explain that I don't appreciate my country or culture being reduced to some bandwagon for every Joe Schmoe who fancies it to jump onto. That's just so ... well, offensive to me.
Can you understand?

I'm sure Newsweek presented Japan in the way you described, in the 80s and 90s. But you are not mass media. You are an individual; your mind is supposed to be much finer and smarter, and you should be representing yourself better than that. You can quote something you see in a magazine or news story but you shouldn't find yourself talking as if you yourself are mass media!
("You" meaning us in general but also you Xiaohu)

My country to me is not a commercial commodity; to me it can never be something I decide to "buy into" because it's currently hot in this terrible economic climate. To me Japan is not some ideal I pledge my loyalty to because it looks good to be the center of the world for the next few decades. I can not have that kind of thinking about my country. Or about China either. And I certainly don't care for those predictions that "Japan will rise again".

Is it strange to you that my love of my own country is not conditional on its promise to rise and show the world what it can do again?

Like you say, I guess you're just being honest (except for that prediction--which sounded quite gratuitous to me! and like Changye I don't really agree with the saying either; united we can be a dragon? ...). So you're maybe more honest than most people, and I'm sure many find candidness much preferable to "tact" which can just be another word for "untruthfulness".

So again, I am not saying you should not be expressing those thoughts. It's just that you will hear from me with any objections / complaints I have.

Hope I've made some sense here.

Now if I can get to addressing the other stuff ...

Correction to my dialogue as posted above:

小虎: お元気ですか?

真沙さん: (滔滔不绝的说日语)

小虎: （突然变得唯唯诺诺的）分りません！

真沙さん: （更滔滔不绝的讲日语）

小虎: （脸红了）分りません！

真沙さん: （表现烦心的样子，仍然滔滔不绝的讲日语。突然一下停止）分りますか？

小虎: （脸像西红柿一样红了）嗯，分りません...

真沙さん: 哼！分りません！（转身走开）

(Boy, I really have forgotten everything.  悲哀！)

The thing is, I'm always interested in what people are *really* thinking and feeling, it doesn't offend me if people's views are different than mine, or if someone's opinions are different than mine, I want to hear those things

I agree.Much more potential too for learning something from someone with a different viewpoint.It's late and I've only had a chance to skim over this thread but it looks fascinating and can't wait to go over it again later.I respect anyone who is brave enough and honest enough to speak his/her mind.So I'd say please don't bottle anything up xiaohu.Jiayou mate [and thanks..I always learn heaps from your posts. :)

..and thanks zhen too.This Chinese/Japanese connection has me intrigued.Thanks for your insights.

Hi xiaohu

一个日本人是一条虫，三个日本人加在一起是一条龙。

This saying is popular among Chinese people, but honestly I don't buy this "stereotype" very much. The first part should be a good consolation for some Chinese, but they are forgetting the fact that there are fifteen Nobel laureates and three fields medal recipients among these 虫子 (insects), hehe.

Zhenlijiang,

御免なさい.

When you began your post with 唉，叹口气, my heart jumped into my throat (so to speak).  I honestly don't know how I always manage to elicit these kinds of reactions.  It's not something I set out to do when posting.  Perhaps I don't choose my words carefully enough? Perhaps I have no tact?  Perhaps I'm unknowingly very 粗鲁无礼?

I've been told by some that I'm too direct.  

I honestly don't mean to be inflammatory.  Perhaps you can advise me on what I need to do to get over this, whatever it is there seems to be a certain level of social awareness that I'm not plugged into. 

The thing is, I'm always interested in what people are *really* thinking and feeling, it doesn't offend me if people's views are different than mine, or if someone's opinions are different than mine, I want to hear those things.  Perhaps it's because of my having been an actor, in our classes we were always trained that, regardless of what others may think, good, bad or indifferent, you must express what's really going on inside.  To let people see it and share in it.  Maybe I need to remember how to bottle it up again?

I was just expressing to Tvan about a phenomena that existed, very much like the one he described in that went on in the 80's.  It's something that's still going on today, but has cooled off considerably.  I believe in the 80's it was the time of the highest concentration of "japan-wagon jumpers".  I remember clearly in the late 80's and early 90's in America there was a strong public belief that all Japanese people were extremely wealthy.  If one wanted to be successful in the modern business world, then they must learn Japanese.

I remember talking with my roommate, this was during the mid-90's, about how Japan's youth were unwilling to work, and were rebelling against the rigidly structured society.  At the time our generation, dubbed, "Generation X" was the subject of much media scrutiny and we talked a great deal about Japan's new economic and social conditions.  At the time I was new to it all, but he, having been a fan of Japanese Cinema, (especially Godzilla) introduced Japan to me, it's the first time I recall getting interested in Japan.

Later on I was in an acting class and my good friend at the time was a Japanese translator.  I had gotten very deeply into video games, especially those from Japan.  Because of his proficiency in the language and my growing interest in Japan because of the entertainment and electronic products one thing led to another and I found myself wanting to learn Japanese.  

I remember one night after class, my friend and I went to West L.A. to get some Ramen and he stopped by a newsstand to get a Backstage West (the actors trade magazine), and there was a front page headline on the cover of Newsweek about "Asian Chic", and how it was becoming cool to be Asian.  Specifically Japanese.

Meanwhile on the gamer front, I found that the vast majority of "gamers" at some point try to tackle the language, all my gamer/anime fan friends had purchased Japanese dictionaries, textbooks, taken Japanese classes in high-school or college, etc.

All of them had given up on it after realizing it's extremely difficult!  

The only ones who stuck with it were those who saw the big picture.  To them it wasn't something fun exciting that would help them understand their anime when they switched to the Japanese track on their Ninja Scroll DVD.  It takes being in love with the whole package, the people, the culture, the language not just it's various products like entertainment and electronics for it to really stick.

So because Japanese entertainment products are so cool and unique, it brought a generation of young people to Japanese.

Later on, as Japan's influence in the world of electronics, media and cinema began to weaken a bit, Japan was no longer considered *chic*, and with China on the rise, now the new bandwagon was China's, shall we dub it the "Mando-wagon"? 

I think it's all about timing.  The weakening of Japan (and America too) and the simultaneous rise of China, while at the same time a generation of youth having been introduced to Asian culture through such things as Anime, Manga and Video Games steered the tide towards The Middle Kingdom, who's now enjoying their own renaissance because of it.

Just like with any fad, many will come and a few will stay.  There will come a time when the China fad will have cooled off and the ones that stay will be the ones who were seriously in love with the culture.

Japan will rise again, that's for certain.  The Japanese people are too smart and unified for it not to go through another period of great prosperity.

My good friend once told me that the Chinese have a saying, 一个日本人是一条虫，三个日本人加在一起是一条龙。一个中国人是一条龙，三个中国人加在一起是一条虫.

That phrase speaks volumes about the Japanese people's unity.

The Japanese have a great ability to unite and focus their collective energy to boundless rewards. We've seen what Japan can do when she puts her mind to it.  Growing up, with all the attention on Japan's prosperity, I always wished that we Americans could be so united. 

小虎，

我不是完全同意你，“第二个世纪是中国的世纪。”  因为中国的人口太多，而且他也继续日本的错误，托庇出口反而发展它国内的市场。（Straight English grammar above, so corrections welcome.)  你看现在有的评论者说中国的经济快要超过日本的。当然！中国的人口是日本的人口十倍！那是成绩吗？

简而言之我不知道一百年内会纠正三百年的失政。（我自己希望可以，但我还有疑问。）不过你说的对。“等着看着呗！”

*唉，叹口气*

Xiaohu,

Whether or not our declining star falls off the Global Hot 100 charts, Japan is not going to disappear from the face of the earth and we have no longing to be anything other than Japanese (there are of course individuals who may)--not because we are perversely fixated on Japanalia or unable to see that spending any more time or effort on Japan is a waste. Fickle enthusiasts may come and go. Meanwhile our Japaneseness, our culture, are not commodities or goodies to us. Our language exists for us. They are our identity.
No matter how many journeyers "have been through us" on their way to their current passionate love affair with China, we remain, as ever, Japanese.

I'm not angry here; I just wonder why your enthusiasm for China and Mandarin always seems to have to take this particular turn. I hope this is something you will get over someday soon. You will feel how you feel about China/Japan (Mandarin/Japanese), but there are choices you can make if and when expressing such preferences in public forums.

I commented in the other thread with my doubts that a J-Pod can work anything like ChinesePod does (again, I am always pleased to hear of interest in Japanese). I also felt a need to caution C-Poddies not to expect the same kind of user experience with J. Perhaps I am being too negative, but I think hearing you sometimes makes me want to preempt such "disappointments" if I can.

You asked if my reasons for taking up Mandarin had to do with economics. No they do not, at all. I started in Oct 2006 because I had plans to visit Shanghai a year later and wanted at least a little conversational ability. I'm a translator in Japan working in J to E mostly, much less often E to J. Knowledge and even a little fluency in Mandarin certainly will not hurt me. But I would have to work my tail off for at least a dozen more years before I could hope to do any work in Mandarin. In other words that is not among my realistic goals for study, though I can always dream about it for the distant future (another life maybe).

I too do like that Mandarin is a very important language in the world, now more than ever. I also like the sound of Mandarin very much. I enjoy trying to make the sounds myself. The differences between Japan and China fascinate me. Obviously, through studying Chinese I learn a great deal about my mother tongue. This is why I remain engaged and am keeping at it.

Sorry I don't mean to be rude by answering entirely in English here. That should tell you how proficient I am in Mandarin--I'm not, not by any long shot.

Like most Japanese students of Mandarin (because we use kanji) I don't have a Chinese name; such an option is never really broached with us. It would be nice just to take a name you like as your own. What we do is learn to read our Japanese names in Chinese; that is how we are addressed. And those of us who use hiragana or katakana in our names are pretty much required to take some hanzi in their place. So this is a system that's no fun at all for us. Zhenlijiang is my given name read in Chinese. It took a little getting used to at first, but I quite like it now.

* will address other points later ...

长夜老师，

你说得一点都没错！美国的经济下降了很厉害！

Hi xiaohu

Instead, you are less annoyed by local people who want to utilize you as a free English tutor in Japan than in China. There are two sides to everything, as you might know.

the welcoming and encouraging attitude of the Chinese helps to bring the fold to learn Chinese.  I too wish the Japanese would be more welcoming.

P/S. Exactly speaking,

the 21st century will be 中国的世纪.  That compounded with the economic fall of the US and Japan

tvan

Among young people, there was a renaissance with Japanese in the early part of this decade. Tons of young people were jumping on the Japan-wagon, due to our love of 动漫，漫画 and 电脑游戏.  Due to various factors, that love affair has cooled off, and actually given way to the new love affair that many of us westerners have with Chinese.  I was brought to Chinese through Japanese, (and now I'm almost 8 years into it, and it's become a great passion of my life), and I've spoken with many others who have come to Chinese through Japanese as well. 

I don't know if a new love affair will with all things 日本 will begin or not, I believe it's doubtful given the metoric rise of China on the world stage, with many predicting the 21st century will be 中国的世纪.  That compounded with the economic fall of Japan, the recent Toyota disgrace, recalls by Japanese car manufacturers, and the strange and sometimes outrageous behavior of many Japanese youth, will a new day dawn for the land of the rising sun? 

等着看着呗！

zhenlijiang

Thanks for the Japanese lesson!  ありがとうございます!

I still love the Japanese language, and would like to pick it up again in the future.

I recall I just parroted a phrase in my Barrons travellers guide, veratim.  I wonder if I remembered it wrong?  Maybe it was with the negative, I could swear it was in the positive structure, 話せます.

This sushi place I'm speaking of was a sushi buffet that used to be near the corner of Garvey and Garfield in the city of Monterey Park.  Have you ever been to Monterey Park or the San Gabriel Valley where all the Los Angeles Chinese people live?  The sushi place has long since closed down and become a video store.  You can't get Sushi but you can get a DVD player for about the same price as the buffet was! 哈哈!

The funniest thing is that, after the sushi incident, I met すみません on the street, he struck up an conversation which consisted of:

小虎: お元気ですか?

すみません: (滔滔不绝的说日语)

小虎: （突然变得唯唯诺诺的）分りません！

すみません: （更滔滔不绝的讲日语）

小虎: （脸红了）分りません！

すみません: （表现烦心的样子，仍然滔滔不绝的讲日语。突然一下停止）分りますか？

小虎: （脸像西红柿一样红了）嗯，分りません...

すみません: 哼！分りません！（转身走开）

I tell you, I lived what was the pinnacle of the very thing people fear most about learning a foreign language.  The fear that someone will mistake the other party as fluent, or having some mastery of the language that they don't and in the end get upset. 

At least I got that out of the way early on!

The honorifics in Japanese were literally scary!  So much potential to offend someone if you don't chose your language carefully!  I find Chinese to be easy in that respect, it's a very uniform lanaguage, no need to worry about inflections, tenses, honorifcs etc. 

Chinese however, is very difficult in other aspects.  The tones, pronunciation, aspirates, etc.  Grammar can be challenging in that it's so different from English that one needs to completely rewire their thinking about how to indicate past, future and continuous tenses.

Besides that, one needs to have an extremely large vocabulary to speak effectively because there are so many words that can only be used in a specific instance, Chinese is a less flexible language than English.

And of course 成语.

At the end of the day, the welcoming and encouraging attitude of the Chinese helps to bring the fold to learn Chinese.  I too wish the Japanese would be more welcoming.

Mm Tvan I know! We saw many of those businessmen flock to Tokyo during those years, and leave when it became very uninteresting for them. There were those "suit" types, and the other major group of westerners rushing Tokyo in those days were the design-fashion-arty crowd.

It is kind of sad for us, to think that for many such foreign residents the interest in Japan was nearly pure economics. I've been making the observation thru discussions here at CPod that people who became interested in China and Mandarin initially mainly because "it's hot", because "SH is the place to be now" seem to have developed more real interest and respect for Chinese culture than that (just as an example--it seems that "westerners" demonstrate much more understanding about the need to save face in China, than "they" did in Japan during those bubble years--I noted in a QW discussion months ago).

There is a lot of generalization here on my part of course.

And this brings me to Xiaohu's questions to me in Chinese.

Changye,

Thank you ;-). It is not for me: I don't eat meat / fish, but my husband does: I will stick to (天ぷら) with vegetables that is!

Hi chanelle77

A vegetarian eats sushi? Maybe zhenlijiang would give you some tips about sushi restaurants in Tokyo. At least she lives in Japan now.....

P/S. I lived in Tokyo more than twenty years ago!

Actually I have been there already :-) And no I HATE to get up early! My cats would have loved it! It was very impressive, but (as a vegetarian) I'm not so good with dead animals so most likely there will not be a second time haha!

Changye, do you perhaps have a favourite restaurant /  suggestion there? I am looking for an "insider tip" and rather follow someone's advice / experience!

Hi chanelle77

I know nothing about sushi restaurants in Tokyo, but probably you can find many good ones around The Tsukiji Market, which is the largest fish market in the world. I hear this market is very popular among foreign sightseers now. I think it's just worth seeing for you. Incidentally, are you an early bird?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukiji_fish_market

http://www.tsukiji-market.or.jp/tukiji_e.htm

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Asia/Japan/Tokyo_to/Tokyo-969164/Restaurants-Tokyo-Tsukiji_Sushi_Iwa-BR-1.html

Hi tvan

I hear that nowadays there are some people who learn Japanese because of their "love" to Japanese anime. Personally I love these "otaku" guys far more than "clever" guys who learned Japanese in 80s simply because Japan was economically powerful.

Japanese honorifics are actually very difficult to master even for native Japanese. Conversely, foreign learners don't need to care much about honorifics when they are elementary/intermediate learners. Just trying to speak polite Japanese would be enough for them.

Any good suggestions for sushi in Tokyo? ;-)

@zhenlijiang, Japanese was quite the rage in the States in the 1980's during the heyday of its own bubble economy.  Unfortunately, when the Japanese bubble evaporated, so did interest in Japanese classes, and colleges went back to teaching German and French. 

I had several classmates who took Japanese as part of an MBA program.  They mentioned the honorifics, etc.  However, what really got them was the Kanji!  

Xiaohu (this is part 2),

While in the early part of my Japanese study, I went into a sushi restaurant, mustered up all my courage and in what must have been terribly butchered Japanese, said hello and asked the sushi chef his name.

He responded by telling me who he was by launching into (what felt like) and unending stream of Japanese words.  When he finally finished I politely told him in what was most definitely, horribly accented Japanese,

私は日本語が少ししか話せます

I imagine most of it was pronounced correctly, only with a thick American accent, however I pronounced しか like shi-keh instead of shi-kah, so the chef (I believe he was Masa San), contemplated for a while, not able to understand what I said, although I swore I said it right!  That was the one phrase I made sure I practiced over and over again because I knew before getting a great grasp of the language, I would have to use it over and over again in conversation.

I know you didn't ask for a Japanese lesson; hope you don't mind this.

私は日本語が少ししか話せます
At this timing--after you had already spoken your first Japanese words to Masa-san and he had launched into what seemed like an endless stream--obviously you're not telling him you can speak a little Japanese, rather, wanted to apologetically say "I speak only a little Japanese".
I guess you'd say
（すみません、）日本語は少ししかできません。  or maybe
（すみません、）日本語は少ししかできないんです。

しか～, "only", needs to be collocated with a negative such as ない、
できない、みたことない、食べられない、したくない.

There's also this expression, but it's not appropriate for that situation. You could have said this to initially let someone know you do speak a bit:

日本語は少しだけ、できます
I can speak (just) a little Japanese.

The だけ here is not strictly needed but I personally feel the statement is only (sufficiently) modest with it; I would use it--unless I am at least at a conversationally fluent level.　少しできます in Japanese can still give people the impression you're not half bad.

Hehe, wonder which sushi place this was (this was in LA, correct?)
... and wonder why every other Japanese guy (resident) you meet in LA seems to be a Masa of some sort. My work used to take me to LA twice, three times a year for about 6 years starting at the end of the 80s. Haven't been to very many sushi places actually but wasn't one (a busy one, many Japanese clients got taken there) downtown in Little Tokyo called Sushi Masa? My memory's very fuzzy now anyway.

Xiaohu, I'm responding here to your comment to me made elsewhere Sunday night my time, because I promised the LZ I wouldn't comment there any more. Hope you don't mind me doing it over several installments.

For the record, I don't think you were being rude at all, just telling the truth.  Some people misinterpret the naked truth, in other words, the things they don't want to hear, as rudeness.

I thought and guess what...I don't care if Japanese people dislike hearing heavy accents. I don't care at all and it only makes me happy if I make people angry. How do you like that? (Please don't reply, I don't really want to hear back from you. No offence)--or everything after the first 10 words of that comment--was rude. Not my comments (however unwelcome they may have been), no.

I found the honorific part of the language very difficult and, at the time I didn't understand how much pronunciation is so key to being understood and accepted.

Yeah and when I keep saying the "honorifics" in Japanese I am also thinking tone particles (make you sound like a girl, make you sound overbearing, make you sound respectful, make you rude) etc etc. All those things. Just one reason I keep saying Japanese can be a real pain for beginners is that I keep hearing that, often from Chinese in Japan actually trying to learn Japanese and finding it so hard "because there's just so much to memorize and the honorifics are just terrible".

I am not so daft as to do a simplistic comparison and conclude that Chinese is less difficult than Japanese. But for the beginner--? Surely putonghua has been designed to be simple(r, in many regards than Japanese)?

With regard to pronunciation, we don't demand that foreigners speak beautiful Japanese sounding just like a native speaker though of course we love it, are awed on those rare occasions that we do meet people like that. Yes we would like it if the sounds could approach native sounds somewhat. But what I really want to say here is that Mandarin learners often seem to enjoy much more enthusiastic response, more encouragement, from Chinese people than the Japanese learners from Japanese.

Actually, more important than pronunciation per se in Japanese is tone and degree of courtesy shown. You can't just meet people on the street and start using casual, buddy language with people in Japan--unless you're both very young then it might be funny, and acceptable. That's not because you're a foreigner, that applies to us all. Not that you can never strike up spontaneous friendships in Japan; you just can't talk to people as they would only with friends they've known for a very long time.
As I'm sure you know Xiaohu, this is not hard by any means but you need to know the difference, and use the appropriate language.

Japanese people have a certain level of expectation

Yes I'll be the first to concede, it's unreasonable of us when we're so bad at languages ourselves. I suppose we're just not accustomed to mixing, in Japan. Changes are happening in our society, but there is still a lot of mental resistance. But change today is inexorable and I think we understand that too. 

foreigners should completely adjust to the culture of the people they are trying to assimilate into, instead of expecting others to bend to them.  If Japanese demand this perfection from foreigners learning their language, then we should not make excuses and be obligated to comply.

This may seem totally self-contradictory, but I don't think it's reasonable for most people to aim for perfection, and hope we are quite more lax than that with our "demands". But your 修行者's commitment is admirable. As long as you don't expect others to be like you, or let it torture you needlessly!

After my Sushi restaurant incident, I started to buckle down and only use Hiragana and Katakana which I found to be great guides to pronunciation.  Kanji was something that, at the time was too difficult for me.  At one point I could write every Hiragana and Katakana, it's ashame I've completely forgotten it all!

Will respond re your sushi restaurant incident--thanks for sharing--in a bit.

Thanks Changye.  Not at all criticizing your Japanese (or your wishful notion of the ideal Japanese woman??)--but I don't ever talk feminine like that. I've personally only seen that kind of language in novels, 歌謡曲 kayo-kyoku Japanese popular songs, or black-and-white movies from the 60s starring a pigtailed 吉永小百合 Yoshinaga Sayuri. Well maybe I've heard women a generation before mine from nice families doing that. 我不是深闺高阁中长大的小姐！ Anyway some people here think I'm a guy so it probably doesn't really matter, hehe. Oh well.

And re この大バカ野郎 VS この大バカ者, I agree. So 你这个笨蛋 might be a bit too harsh for the latter? Or maybe that distinction is sort of a fuzzy one.

Hi zhenlijiang

I feel that 大バカ野郎 sounds more harsh than 大バカ者. As for 若いものにはまだまだ負けませんぞ, I don't recommend you use it. It's a phrase that is usually used by an elderly man, perhaps older than 60 years. "今の若い人にはまだ負けないわ" might be more appropriate for you, a woman born in 1966.

changye, would it be any different if I were saying 大バカもの, not 大バカ野郎 (slightly different nuances, these two)?

Also how would you say 若いものにはまだまだ負けませんぞ！  This I would be more likely to actually use.

Hi zhenlijiang

Point taken. Your examples are very clever. Looks like I was half-asleep last night, hehe. Maybe 这个笨蛋(or 你这个笨蛋) is one of the most appropriate Chinese phrases for "この大ばか野郎" in Japanese.

changye, you're right of course. I didn't make that too clear but all those derogatory words that can follow are variables.　I guess I wanted to say that this use of この probably helps make it easier for me to understand the 你这个人 construction.

Hi zhenlijiang

この kono（这个） ろくでなし rokude-nashi good-for-nothing ／ 裏切り者 uragiri-mono traitor ／ 大ばか者 ohbaka-mono big (damn) idiot !!

I think that 你这个人 is much less derogatory than above Japanese words. There are more appropriate Chinese words for them.

changye, yes I think the tone is just right.

Also we say things like (not exactly a 你这个人construction, but):

この kono（这个） ろくでなし rokude-nashi good-for-nothing ／ 裏切り者 uragiri-mono traitor ／ 大ばか者 ohbaka-mono big (damn) idiot !!

The list goes on!

Hi zhenlijiang

"你这个人" might be an equivalent of "あんた(you)っていう人(guy/person)は～" in Japanese, hehe.

(continued ramblings from posts on the Lao Wang in the Doghouse discussion)

I should start by qualifying my earlier observation about "literal" English in the Lao Wang in the Doghouse discussion.

Sometimes literal works. But what I really mean is that there frequently is English that is a perfect fit for, that corresponds to the Chinese--and that's often not literal. It seems like I just stated the obvious, but is it really?

tarcy,　

（無理っす！） lol.  Well, at my age I should never be talking like an immature male person anyway.

That's true--good suggestion about the manga. 谢谢你。 Will try that (priority always on real studying though!).

zhenlijiang，

啊，语气词？！我怎么能解释这么难的东西？我才不敢！無理っす！;-)  其实我对语气词没有把握， 除了一些比较常用的语气词（啊呢等）以外， 别的我都不敢用。

不过我有一个想法。我们可以对照一下某一本日本漫画和它的中文版，看看日语的语气词在中文版里是怎么翻译的，这样也许可以知道中文的语气词是该怎么用的。

我正在在网上看《交响情人梦》和《樱桃小丸子》的中文版，觉得很开心！... 不过，这只不过是一种乐趣，我还没有进行过日中对照呢，哈哈。

skyfx,

You should remember that the と in いとう is not pronounced with a "do" but a "to", because that's the standard pronunciation.

In the northeast esp. and maybe also other regions, people do pronounce it closer to ido actually, now that I think of it--but that's dialect. It is kind of cute when foreigners have that accent, but somehow I have a feeling a young Shanghaiese like yourself doesn't really want to sound like a 日本东北 （我妈的老家在那里）local.

Anyway--I guess roman letters don't work that well for expressing Japanese pronunciation.

"Language is for communication, not comparing"--你说的完全正确。同时，万事都是学习。比较汉语日语这两个语言研究研究相当有趣！ 

tarcy,

Someday, maybe you could give us a mini-course on 语气词s--?  For instance:　「～じゃなあい？」「～だよね！」「～のに！」「～っす！」(← this last one not so high-priority. but I would still like to know. haha) 可以怎么表达呢？ 很想运用自如！

tarcy,

不过感觉这个区别也不是非常大，不仔细听还真听不出来哈

skyfx，谢谢你的指正！

你这次能听出来了，太好了！现在听速度快一点的日语，听不出来也没关系，别着急，你慢慢来吧。

tarcy

这个确实能听出来了，谢谢！但是这个里面念得很慢，我看日本动画上面的都念得很快，基本上很难分辨出来啊。

Plus：这个里面应该不能叫“男生”了，上了年纪的叫“男子”比较合适了。

skyfx，这个视频里的男生的发音怎么样？你能听得出清音和浊音的区别来吗？

http://tv.mofile.com/9U2DVD57/

我刚听了光盘上的发音：くだもの里的"だ"和ぶたにく里的"た"，发现听起来基本没有区别。像这样子的背单词的时候最容易记错，不知道要怎么办才好？

zhenlijiang

so what's most japanese pronounce と in いとう ?

"to" or "do"?

for "in" VS "ing", there is no need to emphasize too much the difference between them.language is born for comunication not for comparison, i also not quite sure about some hanzi whether they are "ing" or "in". 

i suggest you use the input that is able to type the obscure pingyin like in the pic

so when you type "s" or "sh",the hanzies begin with both will appear.

skyfx,

と in いとう will pronounce as "to" while the "ど" in いどう will pronounce as "do"? --Yes, and like I said I think it's a little easier to pronounce/hear the difference than when following a hard consonant like "k".

Actually my pronunciation difficulties mentioned above are different from your current main concern with Japanese = 听辨区别的方面. With ü，I don't have a problem hearing the difference but I still have problems making the right sound, and üe & ün are the most difficult.

"小ü碰见j，q，x，去掉两点还读ü"--This is a perfect example of how Pinyin to me is obvious. I didn't need to memorize that with a j, q and x you drop the 两点 and still pronounce this u as ü; it seems the only natural way to read it.

I do have one 听辨 difficulty--"in" VS "ing". I've never had my pronunciation corrected in this area; but still can't consistently tell which is which when I hear it.

＊  I've also heard many Chinese people say they find difficult to pronounce syllables containing  っ／ッ in 「ちょっとまって！」「ステップアップ」 etc.   But I guess you can worry about that later!

谢谢zhenlijiang 和 tarcy 的热心帮助。

zhenlijiang：

do you mean the と in いとう will pronounce as "to" while the "ど" in いどう will pronounce as "do"?

 üe & ün differs from each other if you see the difference between 月(yüe) and 云 (yün),there is a sentences that the teacher told the students at primary school  is:"小ü碰见j，q，x，去掉两点还读ü"。

tarcy：

我学的是“张向荣”的视频，你可以用Google搜搜，她说的是比如ta行假名，清音发汉语拼音的ta qi ci te to，浊音发的是汉语拼音的da ji zi de do，这两个的区别是很明显的，但是不送气音（就是词中且右上角没有两点的）发的也是汉语拼音的da ji zi de do,好像就说浊音是声带多振动一点，不送气音少振动一点，但是我听起来实在是分辨不出来。所以这个主要是浊音和不送气音的区别。

tarcy--I was hoping you might come to the rescue!

(heehee, I need to take more time later to read through your comments which are undoubtedly very insightful. It's always a pleasure to learn from the knowledgeable Japanese here.)

I don't believe my speaking English made it easier or quicker to learn Chinese pronunciation than for many other Japanese (but it's hard to say objectively).  My big problem is ü--esp. in üe & ün.  I don't think I've once truly nailed it yet. On bad days I also have trouble pronouncing chi as in 吃.

Like I've said here before, to me the Hanyu Pinyin is a system that works very well to represent what sounds need to be made (but I've found here that many native speakers of English and other European languages don't see it that way, that their having read English etc. in roman letters all their life interferes w/their "reading" pinyin).  But for myself, I think it's possible that familiarity with reading roman letters helped me feel more comfortable w/initial recognition of sounds in the beginning stages, based on pinyin.

skyfx 和 zhenlijiang，你们好！

日语清音在词中的时候，倾向于变成不送气音，日语浊音本来就是不大送气的。汉语是重视送气不送气的语言，所以以汉语为母语的人来说，日语词中的清音和浊音听起来差不多。但是对以日语为母语的人来说，这两种音是完全不同的。

送气不送气的问题，我们日本人(除非是语言学家)一点都不重视，重要的是“浊不浊”。所谓“浊”是bdg等辅音开始的部分声带就有点松而振动的，“不浊(=清)”是ptk等辅音开始的部分声带有点紧张而不振动，然后到了aiueo等元音的部分声带才开始振动的。虽然是在短短的一瞬间内发生的现象，但是不管在词头还是在词中，对我们来说，确实是有那种差异的。

我有几个中国朋友，他们会说日语，我听他们的日语浊音没有特别大的问题，所以我就问了他们说，“你们是怎样辨别日语的清音和浊音的？”他们回答说，“我们一点都不会辨别呀！对我们来说，这一直是个伤脑筋的问题。你告诉我们，清音和浊音应该怎样辨别呢？”

他们说，在自己念浊音的时候，他们有意识地念得“浊”一点（大概是“把声带振动得多一点”的意思吧），但是他们听日本人说话的时候，听辩清音和浊音是很困难的，尤其是在词中，几乎听不出区别来。

母语里面所没有的语音特征实在很难学，不是一下子就能学会的。skyfx，我这样说并不是建议你放弃努力，而是想说你现在听不辩清浊也不用担心，只在背单词和自己念课文的时候，注意清浊就可以了。

你们中国朋友学日语的时候，发音方面的问题主要是清音/浊音的区别这一点，是不是？我们日本人学汉语的时候，发音方面的问题多得不得了啊。zhenlijiang，你说对不对？

啊，对了，zhenlijiang会说英语，所以学习汉语的发音，大概比一般的日本人学得更快吧？

skyfx,

＜こども＞和＜ことし＞ 这两个单词中间的ど和と假名在汉语发音听起来都像是do(1)，我听视频里面的老师说如果ta行的假名不在第一个位置就要发da...do，请问实际发音是很接近吗？

对我来说，＜こども＞的ど和＜ことし＞的と发音不大远。可是，也不是很接近的。

再举这个例子：

いどう （移動｜移动） VS  いとう （伊藤｜a common surname）。 The intonations are the same, so if you pronounced the と as a "do" then the two words would have to be pronounced identically, right?    But いどう（移動）and いとう（伊藤） are definitely not pronounced the same.

But the と is easier to pronounce as a clear "to" following the vowel い "i", than following a consonant like こ "ko".

也许那位老师的意思是“要让「た・て・と」接近一点「だ・で・ど」” ...

Hope this helps a bit!

☆　日语发音有点儿难。今后也要努力啊 ☆

zhenlijiang,i have just registered a lang-8 account and found a lot of people all around world.i will take advantage of that to learn.

happy week end to you too!

skyfx,  oh right, sorry i forget you've only very recently started studying.

if you're studying 2.5 hrs every day i think you're being very good actually.  do get a live teacher!  it will be so much better, i promise.

about skype--the reason i suggested you try going there to find chatfriends was, i saw a blog by a japanese guy teaching chinese in jpn who mentioned he chatted with chinese users all the time on skype. well, that's only one guy after all.  how about tarcy's suggestion--to look on language learning sites?  but in any case i think you'd have more fun there after you've studied a bit more japanese first.

well gotta go now ... 周末快乐!

zhenlijiang,thanks for your advice,i never see japanese in my university district(which is quite far away from the central district of my campus,perhaps around 30 kilometers) where the literature department and foreign language department locate.

i check out the website you provide,i think it would do great help,but now i am still not quite familiar with the 五十音图,especially the 片假名。i really should use more time on japanese learning rather than waste it on playing computer games.

skyfx,  yes, do try to get into the Japanese class at your university if you can.  really, it's much better to have a live teacher to listen to and ask questions. you might also find Japanese friends on campus--no?

in the meantime why don't you also take a look here:

http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/chinese/top/index.html

NHK is the public broadcast company in Japan. this is their news site Chinese page. you might find the 实用日语100句 section helpful.  if not as exciting as the CPod lessons, at least they're very accurate (won't find mistakes there with 浊音符 etc) and the pronunciation is authentic.

sorry my advice so far hasn't been very good.

but you've only just started--everybody finds it hard at that stage!  that shouldn't discourage you from learning.

will write again, need to prepare for class now.

hi,zhenlijiang

20 times?oh,that's amazing.

this book has several edition which differs in Taiwan and main land,the Taiwan edition contain 4 cds,the main land edition only has the tapes.i assume it's only publich in China.

i download cd image from here

http://lib.verycd.com/2005/10/23/0000070851.html

the screenshot here:

you can see the read lined "ありがどう",when click on the line,it will read automatically,very convenient,but i dont know whether there would be more mistakes.

and the lessons video is from here:

http://www.verycd.com/topics/65712/

hi skyfx, 我今天去了图书馆，顺便找找你用的教材（以前在相识的家里看到过一本很像那个封面设计的书）。我找到的书跟你的封面的插图不同，可能比较旧（刚看确认，是1989年出版的，好旧啊）。

对不起，让我突然换语言。less painful for you to read and 20 times as fast for me to write ... anyway, this book i found, although it must be the same series as yours, comes with no sound reference. no CD, tapes etc.  but yours does, of course?

i must say, i wish i could recommend a more interesting-looking textbook for you, but don't know of any. this one looks like such hard work!  and it's only a primer.  哎呀，要去吃饭，回头再说你的问题 ...

在skype加了几个人，不知道怎么很久了也没有回应

，估计他们都很少上skype还是怎么的

好的，我是自学的，为了玩游戏和看日本动漫，并且以后可能到日资公司上班。

我的教材是这个

skyfx, thanks for that!

your other question:

最近背日语单词，发ji这个音的时候如果在最后一个的话一般是ち，比如：ともだち（friend）。而在单词中间的是一般是じ比如たんじょうび而不是たんちょうび，请问是这样的吗？ 因为这两个发音和汉语拼音的ji很近，我将常搞错，真不好意思 .

对我来说有一点难。让我想一想，好吗？

请问，你是在学校里上日语课的，还是在家里学习的？用什么样的教材？  在skype 已经找到日本朋友了没有？

请你的教导！---->请你指导！

as you say:我不是忘你的！

maybe you wanna say "i didnt forget to reply on purpose".

then it should be 我并不是故意忘记而不回复你的。

ok,i got it.thanks very much. 

sorry i have another question to bother you.

skyfx asks:
最近背日语单词，发ji这个音的时候如果在最后一个的话一般是ち，比如：ともだち（friend）。而在单词中间的是一般是じ比如たんじょうび而不是たんちょうび，请问是这样的吗？ 因为这两个发音和汉语拼音的ji很近，我将常搞错，真不好意思 .

skyfx,  so sorry it has taken me this long!

• 李さんのお国はどちらですか？
• 李さんはどちらのお国から来られているのですか？

first--i did not know you had only so recently started studying.  so pls forget about this second sentence, it's not important to know now.

second--i said i assumed this sentence was not asking Mr Li directly where he is from, but asking a third person what country Mr Li is from.  however, i guess it's easier to talk about this sentence if we assume the speaker is asking Mr Li directly (what does the exercise document say?).  in which case:

お in お国 is not "your", even though if you translate the entire sentence it seems to correspond. anyway we shouldn't attempt word-for-word translation between J and E, or J and C.  obviously if you say 「李さんの」, you are already saying "Mr. Li, your".

in any case, お is an honorific, used to express respect.  the (second) definition nciku gives for honorific:  敬语[在日语及其他东方语言中对人或物需要表示敬意的用语] .  

another example: "What is your name?"  we would say お名前は何ですか？ (but again, in reality this too has to be made more polite)  if we just said 名前 without the honorific お, the other person would not understand that you were asking them their name.  or they would think you were being rude.

here again, お does not mean "your".  "your" is あなたの; it gets omitted because it's understood. （あなたの）お名前は何ですか？

of course 李さんの国はどこですか？ is grammatically ok and it's basic.   it is just good to know that in reality, you may hear us saying it just a bit differently.

just for interest--there are many very formal ways to express respect for the other, that you can learn later.  for example at certain times, we use 貴国　ki-koku (this does mean "your country".).

fine,you just go to work and reply me when you have time,i am always online because my profession is dynamic website design using j2ee,asp.net or php.

skyfx, 不要紧！不客气。对不起使你更不清楚。没想到你刚刚刚开始学日语。你别急呀！ and no no no, there was nothing that annoyed or needs forgiving.  i just wanted to explain the honorifics in our language which are, as you say, pretty strict.  this is why i think Chinese, in the beginning stages at least, is much more approachable than Japanese for foreign learners.

sorry pls let me reply to your questions a bit later. 现在得工作。

i think i should learn more new words,i still know little about the Japanese culture,if there is mistake or something else that will annoy you and other Japanese friends,please forgive me and point out what is wrong,because i hear that hierarchy is Japan is quite serious, again thank you for your kind-hearted guidance！

zhenlijiang

Sorry for posting so many same replies.

I just began to study Japanese 2 weeks ago,so there is a lot i couldnt understand, does the お in お国 means "your"?

and the second sentences 李さんはどちらのお国から来られているのですか？ is really difficult for me to catch its meaning.i know that どちら is the polite way to ask a question, does から means "从"？

so 李さんはどちらのお国から来==李先生从哪个国家来的？the rest of the sentences i totally couldnt understand it.

PS   not to confuse you, but 李さんの国はどこですか？

could be a little more polite (i am presuming it's a third-party question, not asking 小李 him/herself)

• 李さんのお国はどちらですか？
• 李さんはどちらのお国から来られているのですか？

for now don't worry too much about the rest--the point is, we Japanese are uncomfortable with leaving nouns "naked", for anything referring to the other person, as it seems disrespectful.  i think we would always say お国, not just 国 (not however if we're talking about ourselves).  but if we did that then どこ would seem a little rude, so we would say どちら instead.

if you're already very close, like old buddies, with someone then at some point you can stop doing this (but then you would not be asking what country someone is from if they're your old friend).

just so you know. that is the way we would actually speak.

hi skyfx:

i posted here because i was getting concerned about all the bad-grammar Chinese i was littering the Ele Activity Stream with. you can understand me despite all the mistakes because you're not an Ele student, but i think it could be distracting and confusing for others.

so if you like we can talk about your question here.  problem is--i am no expert on Japanese. unfortunately there's a lot i don't know!

your question:

請教個問題：李さんの国は()ですか. ()里面因該填 なん 還是どこ才對？謝謝！

这是我网上下的视频课里面老师上课时候问的题目，原题是： 她说是どこ，也没有说为什么是どこ，我就搞不懂了，我是觉得好像两个都可以的，都是问从何处/哪里来的.具体选择哪个我也是犹豫不决。请指导，谢谢！

对，填「どこ」才对的。 my advice--just memorize this.

and this is one case where thinking in English will also trip you up. in English you could say "what country is 小李 from?" if you direct translate "what country" you would feel like saying　李さんの国はなんですか--which is wrong.  a native Japanese, hearing that, would think, "you're saying country, so that's known. why are you asking what?". 

separate the question like this:  李さんの国は／どこですか？ don't think 哪国.  you know that the information the asker wants is "where 小李 is from".  so it should be phrased that way--どこ--where?

i think you understand, to ask "what is 小李's favorite food?" for instance, then you would use 何（なん）. 「李さんの好きな食べ物はなんですか？」  because the asker wants to know what thing.

after all this i'm afraid this still isn't very clear. and very sorry to write this all in English. but if i tried to do it in Chinese it would take me another half-day. didn't have that time today!  good luck in your studies.

Hi zhenlijiang

Your mother tongue is the most superb language for you in the world. In this sense, as the Japanese saying (modified by me) goes, "Heaven doesn't make a language better than others, nor does it make a language worse than others".

Having said that, the languages in the world differ from each other. Every language naturally has advantages and drawbacks, although native speakers often don't realize them. Local people usually feel very satisfied and comfortable with their native language, just like you and me.

I agree with you. I also love Japanese recitations very much. They might sound rather monotous to foreigner's ears, especially when compared to more melodious languages such as Chinese and English, however as you know, most Japanese people love such quietness and simplicity that typify the essence of Japanese culture.

Just imagine a Chinese news announcer who is speaking very fast like a machinegun firing. Additionally, Chinese is a language that can carry a lot of information with a small number of characters, so theoretically Chinese news should be rich in information. In reality, however, they are often loade with empty rhetoric and not so informative.

On the other hand, Japanese announcers speak slowly, sometimes at tortoise-like pace. This is not necessarily a bad thing, especially for elderly and foreign people, but I always feel sleepy (or irritated) when watching Japanese news programms, hehe.

hi changye,

it seems that English translations are more easy to understand even for native Japanese than original texts ...

yes exactly. so for me it took the work of a non-Japanese translator to shame me into trying to become more familiar with my own culture.

other books by リービ英雄 include 「我的中国（われてきちゅうごく）」　「延安」 「仮の水」 many of which are non-fictional, or fiction based on his travels through China in recent years.

as for why Japanese is so grammatically and emotionally different from Mandarin despite all the things in common ... i think some scholars dedicate their lives to this study!

i don't know many languages so really am not in a position to compare. but for what it's worth, to me Japanese is an exceptionally sensuous language. when i read beautiful Japanese out loud like Meiji University professor 齋藤孝 advocates, it so naturally resonates (with the senses) and quietly rocks (this emotional core deep inside).  do all languages do this?  of course i'm sure with 日本語 it is because i am 日本人 and the seasons and landscape and island culture and history and everything is part of me. i can almost feel the synapses in my brain lighting up or whatever it is that they do when activated.  or as we often say recently in Japan, α波が出てる!  all this is quite a recent discovery for me, but i know that at least a few foreigners also feel this about Japanese.  it's too bad i've been missing out for so long.

as much as English is important to me, being the language i've conducted a lot of my personal life (esp early life in), did my reading (for fun, not just work) in, listened to music in--i realize recently i've never felt that way about it.

now i also had the "alpha-brainwave experience" (btw i'm sure this description is rubbish scientifically) when i first began studying Chinese and tried to mouth the words along to the readings of 唐 poems in the tv show 漢詩紀行.  and while i'm quite certain i'll never feel the same way about Chinese as i do about Japanese, to me Mandarin (and to be really honest, i mean the "northern standard") is one of those languages like French that give the speaker pleasure, not just the listener.  i watched movies and found it 好听, then started studying and discovered it's also very 好发声.

i have a pile of books still to read about the Japanese language. one i'm eager to get into now is 「日本語で一番大事なもの」, a long dialogue between 大野晋 (scholar, author of 「日本語の年輪」)　and 丸谷才一 (novelist and critic who has translated Ulysses and the works of Poe).  the library books first though!

Hi zhelijiang

"リービ英雄" is completely new to me. Honestly, I'm not so familiar with Japanese literature. I've just found an Iwanami booklet "英語でよむ万葉集" (read Man-yo-shu in English) at Amazon, which looks very intriguing to me. I'll definitely get one copy when I go back to Japan next time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27y%C5%8Dsh%C5%AB

Actually I have some books about 万叶集, but it seems that English translations are more easy to understand even for native Japanese than original texts are, haha. Let me show you a good example from the book I've found on the Internet.Thank you for introducing an interesting book and author.

春過而..  夏来良之....  白妙能  衣乾有...  天之香来山
春過ぎて 夏来たるらし 白妙の 衣干したり 天の香具山

Spring has passed,
and summer seems to have arrived:
garments of white cloth hung to dry
on heavenly Kagu Hill.

As for the Japanese language, I always wonder why it's so different from Mandarin grammatically and "emotionally", even though both languages commonly use Chinese characters and have a lot of words in common. To me, Mandarin is more similar to English than to Japanese in many ways.

changye, i should have been able to guess "borrowed characters" 假借字 （also 借用字，音译字） are what i know as 当て字（宛字）ate-ji.  thank you again!

not to compete with you but yesterday i went to the library. so i do not own any new books, but am pretty stoked anyway. have you ever read リービ英雄 (Ian Hideo Levy)?  i'd been interested in this American in Tokyo writing in Japanese ever since i learned he did a widely acclaimed translation of the 万葉集.  his father was a diplomat and he grew up partly in Taiwan and knows Chinese as well.  so his perspective is interesting to me.  i found he had done a translation of the 般若心経 into English "The Core Sutra of Perfect Wisdom" and checked that out.  like too many Japanese-English bilingual books it's not easy to look at in many ways (because usually there's no bilingual editor, designer or publishing house person--and in this case the client was a temple), but still really fascinating, also because he talks about the process of the translation work. actually i'm also a (还差) translator myself, so enjoy hearing others' accounts of their struggles.  i also checked out his essays 日本語の勝利--an intriguing title and i had briefly seen him talk about what he calls the triumph of the Japanese language (as opposed to 日本人の勝利), and want to know more.

anyway ... i need to finish work first, but have those books to look forward to.

Hi zhenlijiang

My pleasure. I'm a lazy guy, so I usually don't look up dictionaries unless someone raises an interesting question, haha. So I AM the one who should thank you. Here is a nice explanation about "borrowed characters" (假借字) from Wikipedia. Looks like I should have used a more appropriate translation for the Chinese word.

• 假借 jiǎjiè "borrowing; making use of"

Jiajie are characters that are "borrowed" to write another homophonous or near-homophonous morpheme, comparable with using "4" as a rebus for English "for". For example, the character 來 was originally a pictogram of a wheat plant and meant *mlək "wheat". As this was pronounced similarly to the Old Chinese word *mlək "to come", 來 was also used to write this verb. Eventually the more common usage, the verb "to come", became established as the default reading of the character 來, and a new character 麥 was devised for "wheat". (The modern pronunciations are lái and mài.) When a character is used as a rebus this way, it is called a jiajiezi 假借字 (lit. "loaned and borrowed character") , translatable as "phonetic loan character" or "rebus character".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiajie#Phonetic_loan_.28rebus.29_characters

By the way, I'm very happy today cause I got good books about 论语 and 青铜器 (bronze vessels) at a nearby bookstore!!

changye, thank you again for all the details.  so 共伯和 had a name he lived up to.

borrowed characters? are? 真对不起, i promise-- someday the questions will stop.

Hi zhenlijiang

The meanings of the characters 共 and 和 in the West Zhou (西周) era were basically the same as those of today, ie. 共 is "together", and 和 "harmony", which are very original meanings of the two characters.

The early shape of 共 in oracle bone scripts (甲骨文) and bronze inscriptions (金文) is "two hands", which literally implies "hand in hand" (co-operation).

The history of 和 is a little complicated. The original character of 和 in 甲骨文 is "龢" (he2), and the left part of this character, 龠(yue4), indicates an ancient woodwind instrument made by combining bamboo pipes. And its derived character 龢 obtained the meaning "harmony".

Unfortunately, 龢 is rather cumbersome to write down, so its simplified forms (or borrowed characters) such as 禾, 和, 咊 and (木+口) appeared later. And, congratulations, 和 survivied competition!

I'm not so sure, but it's possbile that 共龢 was used instead of 共和 when 共伯和 took power in 841 B.C.

P/S I don't know why, but I couldn't open/access Chinesepod last night for hours, which often happens these days.

hi changye

thanks very much for the historical background on 共伯和, which i could only get sketchily from my dictionary. at the time, did the characters 共 and 和 already have the meanings we know them for today?

Hi zhenlijiang

Let me tell you the story on the birth of the translation 共和国. In 841 B.C., the era of West Zhou (西周), a local King "共伯和" tentatively took power in place of the emperor Li (历王) of Zhou dynasty who was kicked out of his country for some reasons.

共伯和 employed a collegial system for governing the dynasty, which is the very reason 共和 is reused as a translation of "republic" in modern Japanese and Mandarin. I admire our ancestors in the Meiji era, who had profound knowledge about Chinese history and literature.

It's also worth noting that 共和元年(841 B.C.) is very important in Chinese history, as it IS the oldest exactly-known "year" seen in 《史记》 (by 司马迁). In other words, historians can't tell exactly when historical events before 共和元年 took place in the history of China.

hi changye

first i have to thank you for being so patient, to help one as slow as myself to gain perspective on my own mother language (not proud of that)!

so i see that these terms such as 共和国 were adopted by 19th century Japanese intellects who were learning from Western concepts and trying to understand and name them in Japanese (=translating).  and 共和国 stuck as the Japanese understanding of republic (respublic), which i guess was after considering translations such as 「寄合持ノ国」, 「共和政治」, 「共治国」, 「会治国」. also 「自治之国」, or 「君民同治」 were suggested--is that right?

today we go the easy way of katakana-izing foreign concepts, as with computer terminology like you said before, also advertising/marketing terminology which, again, makes assimilating the concepts quicker but i think the trade-off is a poorer vocabulary, unless you consider katakana terms to be 日本語 in their own right.  having said that, katakana-ization is an obvious advantage when talking about subjects such as French cuisine.

ok, now that we've established i'm a very slow learner ...

i get your point (made long ago up there) about some Chinese and Koreans being not thrilled at having all those Japan-made loanwords in their languages, as it would represent Japan having been ahead and the "teachers" at that time.  it's funny though, i think generally that sort of pride hurts us Japanese because it holds us back, but it seems Chinese and Koreans use it to their advantage, as fuel that drives them forward.  not at all sarcastically, i hope they are happy. we should all be. not gloating or jeering or smug, but happy.

i guess the term 北朝鮮 irks the beloved leader as a dismissal of the important-sounding 朝鲜民主主义人民共和国.  you can only shake your head and laugh at the gross misrepresentation, only you can't laugh when you think about the people living there through no choice of their own.

I'm very pessimistic about Korean reunification too.

Firstly, Korean people themselves are not very positive about reunification. South Korean people have a dream of expanding their teritorry and becoming Big Korea, but they are not willing to pay the cost of that. Furthermore, they actually don't have enough money to unite the two countries.

Secondly, Southern people are attracted by underground resources and the labor force in North, preferably including nuclear warheads, however South Korean just don't want to accept northern people in their society. In short, ROK is incapable of reuniting South and North in many ways. 

Thirdly, Korean people are traditionally poor at agreeing to disagree. In other words, Korean societies are intolerant of people who have different opinions, and therefore I personally think it's virtually impossible for them to peacefully/amicably reach an agreement on reunification.

Korean leaders and politicians were just arguing/quarreling every day and were preoccupied with (traditional) internal factional struggles even when their country was on the verge of extinction one hundred years ago. One faction was pro-Japan, and other was pro-Russia in those days.

Korean people failed to come together at critical times in the past. They split into two factions again after they won independence from Japan. Korea managed to become fully independent from China in 1895, thanks to Japanese victory in the first Sino-Japan war, but its status as an independent country didn't last long partly due to their internal struggles.

I always feel guilty about Japanese annexation of Korea in 1910, since this just meant that Japan deprived Korea of a more favorable option that could have been chosen at that time. If Korea had been annexed to Russia, instead of Japan, modern Korean people would have been much happier than they are today!

North Korea is a baffling country. Our new Secretary of State 希拉里 just visited Japan and appeared to calm the waters a bit.

But I'm not optimistic about the future. If you thought the German reunification was tricky, you ain't seen nothing yet!

P/S. Mr. Kim Jong-Il hates to hear Japan calls his flourish empire "北朝鲜" (North Korea), but ironically enough, the country name "朝鲜民主主义人民共和国" consists almost entirely of Japan-origin words, except for 朝鲜. I know the great national leader has long been trying to eradicate Japan-made words in Korean, and therefore I think that "北朝鲜" is much more suitable for him, since it's 100% pure Chinese.

Hi zhenlijiang

You are right. 共产主义 is a Japanese translation of a western-born concept "communism", which was brought to China about one hundred years ago. You can see terminally ill communism here in China.

I'm not sure if it's true, but they say that Mao Tzedong was not very satisfied with "中华人民共和国" since there is only one pure Chinese word, i.e. 中华, in the country name. 人民 and 共和国 are also Japan-made words.

Having said that, actually 共和 is originated in a famous historical episode in ancient China. 共和 is the name of an era of 西周 (west zhou) that was established more than three thousand years ago.

Does anyone happen to know if 働 is still used in Taiwan?

Hi alexyu_yxj

The Japan-made character 働 was actually used in China in the first half of the 20th century, but not anymore now. FYI, 鳕 (xue3, codfish) is a typical made-in-Japan Chinese character that is also used in China. Neither 働 nor 鱈 is listed in 康熙字典, of course.

As for 丼, its history is a bit complicated. Firstly, 井 once had a dot in it, like 丼, mainly in the era of bronze inscriptions (金文) and small seal scripts (小篆). In short, 井 is the simplified form of 丼, and the old form is still used in some dialects, as is often the case.

http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E4%BA%95&submitButton1=Etymology

The Japanese 丼 (a rice bowl) happens to have the same shape as Chinese 丼, but they are two different characters separately created in China and Japan, according to one of my dictionaries, which is the reason their meanings are completely different from each other.

Incidentally, as far as I know, the biggest Chinese dictionary （published in China） is 汉语大词典 (1993, 12 volumes), and the Chinese character dictionary that contains the largest number of hanzi (85,568!) is 中华字海，which contains not only authentic hanzi but also dialect characters including ones in Japan, Korea and so on.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/52045.htm
http://baike.baidu.com/view/632847.htm

I'm dying to get both!

P/S. The biggest Chinese dictionary in the world was completed in Korea last year.

汉语进入日本之后也产生了一些新的字如“働く”里面的“働”，据说中国最大的词典是“辞海”，要不然就是“康熙字典”，不过这两本书我都没看过，因此不知道中国这边是否承认这个字。不过从方言上讲，汉语的方言字典里倒是有一些日语词典才有而汉语的“新华字典”里没有的字，如日语单词“親子丼”里面的“丼”。“新华字典”里没有这个字，不过至少我在“潮汕音字典”里看过，表示“东西掉到水里‘噗嗵’的声音”，很明显是个拟声词，和日语中的不同了。

顺便说一下，“新华字典”字典的词条量是十分有限的，如果日常需要，我建议购买新版的“现代汉语词典”，至于想研究汉语的，这两本可能不够，应该至少配上“辞海”和“词源”，最好有“文言文词典”，那是研究古汉语的词典。

hi changye

共产主义 ： are both parts 共产 and 主义 made in 日本？

how about we let the 日本共産党 have a go at running our country now?  let's see if they're really serious about meaning to take charge, unlike those totally pathetic socialists. not that JCP are mainstream Japan at all, but you know they are the only real opposition out there!  Hillary Clinton really shouldn't have wasted time visiting w/Ozawa.

suffering from a below-10% approvals rating(!! how does that happen) PM Aso is under pressure to call elections. with the sick economy (and finance minister) and jobs being lost left right and center apparently JCP is enjoying a little surge in popularity：http://www.jcp.or.jp/english/jps_weekly09/20081208_01.html

so maybe, just maybe ...

a democratic, Communist Japan--could that actually be a popular administration?  would be interesting to see if it surprises us by 1) improving relations with our neighbors  2) really making us "more equal" in the US-Japan bilateral relation.  could they really do it?   seems the time has never been better for the JCP.

Hi zhenlijiang,

P/S 3. Most 和製漢語 are translations of western techical terms that didn't exist in Asian countries then. And this is one of the reasons that China and Korea aggressively imported these newly-born Japanese words at that time. In short, there was a great demand for 和製漢語.

I don't think there is "a large market" for Japanglish words in foreign countries. Foreign people already have their own counterparts. For example, native English speakers use "cozy" instead of "アットホーム (at home)", or "a family man" for "マイホームパパ (my home papa)".

On the other hand, some "very Japan" words have been relatively easily accepted as a loanword in foreign languages, such as geisha and tsunami, since there is no (exact) equivalent of them in other countries. I don't know if "オタク (otaku)" has the same connotation as "a geek". Please enlighten me!

アニメ (anime) should be one of nice exceptions, if it's also classified into Japanglish words. A lot of foreign guys use the word "anime" in their English writings.

Hi zhenlijiang,

Don't worry. The Japanese language will never disappear, as long as Japan and its people exist. Our mother tongue accepted tons of Chinese words in the past, but it has never changed into Mandarin. We use a lot of words borrowed from English when talking about the Internet and computers, but the language we speak is not English, but proper (?) Japanese. The real problem is Japan's population decrease, which began a few years ago..... 

There are numerous Chinese words commonly used in Chinese and Japanese, and most of them are originated in China, of course. For example, 波及 is a made-in-China word used in the both languages, although it's a more formal word in Chinese than in Japanese, as is often the case with this kind of words. On the other hand, "和製漢語" are generally seen in academic and scientific terminologies. 

和製漢語 (made-in-Japan Chinese words) were invented about one hundred years ago by some Japanese inteligencia who had a great knowledge about Chinese classical literature, so, in general, these words make good "Chinese" sense. More importantly, they are all written in Chinese characters. And therefore, 和製漢語 were very easily aceepted by Chinese people at that time.

I think that so called 和製英語 (Japanglish) are usually created by people who are not so proficient in English, which has consequently led to the production of a lot of funny quasi-English words in Japan. Anyway, Japanglish words are basically written in Katakana, so they are not easily accepted by native English speakers, unless foreign people deeply fall in love with 日本語 (Japanese), hehe!

P/S. I hear that foreign people who live in Japan tend to take on "Japanglish words"!!

P/S2 A guide dog is called 盲導犬 in Japan, but 導盲犬 (V+O structure, guide-a-blind-person dog) in Chinese, since the latter makes grammatical sense in Chinese. So some 和製漢語 used in China might possibly have this kind of problem.

hi shawwui, i do agree (??) a friend is much more 好用 than television! hahaha  but both pete and changye are very proficient.  being nowhere near their level i use TV (along w/radio lessons and now, the podcasts here) because i need the listening practice, not living in China.  mostly things on NHK (Japanese public broadcaster), like news, interview clips, documentaries and HK Phoenix TV's 时事辩论会.  among Chinese government leaders, 温家宝总理 i understand quite well! as he speaks always slowly and clearly and i guess, because he doesn't stray from the predictable ...

pete, thank you for the interesting piece on 余华. i saw him being interviewed last summer on NHK's 中国語会話TV show when 《兄弟》 came out here (looked for clips but didn't find anything).  and i would have called this conversation "TV something" if i knew i was going to yammer on so about it.

PS  和製汉语 meaning "Chinese terms with Japanese origins" is confusing to us isn't it, because when we say 和製英語 we're talking about those terms like アットホーム (at + home), made up of English-origin components, but are strictly Japanese, not working at all in English.

hi changye,

since the "lender" never lords a loanword over the "borrower" (as far as i know), nobody should feel like they're in debt or like they've been one-upped.  however i suppose at this point in history it's easier from our side to see this simply as part of the mutual, of the exchange that has been going on between our cultures for centuries and not an invasion or injury.  probably a bit different in nature, say, from the Academie Francaise and English ...

i remember long ago when i never dreamed about studying Chinese, being told the term for roller-coaster, which was longer than the 轨道飞车 or 过山车 i get in the dictionary now, more like a two-part explanation.  i guess the concept of roller-coasters didn't really exist then in China so it had to be explained. and i thought gosh, in Japan we would just take the term in as 外来語 and express it in katakana.  the thought of having to express everything in 漢字 seemed so foreign and different.  it's simpler for us, with the result that we acquire (we think of it as acquisitions don't we) new concepts and knowledge without much thought. simpler, and the flip side is that we haven't defended Japanese very well from erosion. critics and scholars now warn us that our language is in danger of eventually disappearing.

looking down the list of 日语借词, sure enough they're terms i know the meaning of just as they are (= the hanzi/kanji are the same). so if i, a Japanese native, see a Chinese 生词 (two-character compound) and immediately know what it means because it's written the same, can i assume the term came from Japan?

Hi zhenlijiang,

There are tons of Japan-made Chinese words in modern Mandarin (and even more in Korean), especially in academic termilologies. It can be safely said that both Chinese and Korean languages can't function without using them, just like foreign words from western countries are very important in Japanese.

This issue seems to be a matter of "national pride" for Chinese and Korean people, while it's only kind of a conversation piece for Japanese. I suspect that Korean people abandoned using Chinese characters partly in order to obscure tha fact that their native tongue is actually full of Japan-origin words.

Chinese guys who know about this fact commonly say like this; Even though these words came from Japan, they are basically made of OUR Chinese characters, so we don't need to feel small. I fully agree with this opinion. In the modern age, no country can survive without accepting and using loanwords from overseas.

Did you know that even 共产主义 was made in Japan?

Hi changye and zhenlijiang

Thank you both for your enthusiasm! In response to your question, zhenlijiang, my favorite English writers are Don DeLillo, Mark Twain, and James Joyce. There are big gaps in my Chinese reading, but I did enjoy 活着 by 余华。There was also an recent piece on him in the New York Times Magazine, which is worth checking out. 费孝通，a 20th century sociologist, is another favorite.

Hi,everybody.So glad to see many people learning Chinese here.I'm a Chinese from Guangdong.Well,Chinese is not a difficult language as what you considered,but it can't deny that its character is hard for foreign people to remember and even to write an article.You all said that learning Chinese on TV,I don't think it's a good idea.Cause Chinese character not just one meaning its own.Chinese friend is more useful and convenient for you to master it well.However,to Japanese,Chinese character isn't a real problem any more,I think.Many similiars between Chinese and Japanese.

hi pete,

Bridge to Japan, as it's called, can be vacuous, like when they're showing their own golf tournament or something. but other than local Shanghai news bits they also do stories from Japan which will sometimes be about the latest in energy-saving technologies and such.  i record the show so that i can pause to read the subtitles (i still don't read fast enough) when the content interests me. when Chinese is spoken in the videos the subtitles are in Japanese.

as changye says, 四海's Japanese is actually very good, much more proper and better than many natives.  the pronunciation is not very good with a few of the non-Japanese voice-over narrators in the videos. 小森小姐 speaks naturally like the native she is, but not really at true broadcast-standard level.

but yes, watching TV is a terrible waste of time esp. if it gets to be a habit.  at some point i'd be interested to know what you're reading.  no matter how you study i'm sure you'll find that Japanese is a path embedded with Chinese nuggets.  it should get to be fun for you, as you'll be finding things and making mental connections all the time.

changye

thanks for the links!  will check out the 日语借词 as i hardly know anything about that.  and what do you mean about your sister's Japanese being very funny?

Hi zhenlijiang,

I've found a video of 中日之桥. I also have sometimes watched this programme before. 四海先生 speaks excellent Japanese for a non-native speaker, although there are some flaws in pronunciations, as you pointed out.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/Y-qbMdZyOkI/

My syster speaks and writes rather broken Japanese, but nobody doubts that she is a native Japanese. Her Japanese is very funny, but it sounds "natural" enough for us Japanese native speakers.

On the other hand, almost all the Japanese people can easily tell that Mr. 四海 is a foreign guy, even though he speaks much more fluent and authentic Japanese than my sister! Such is a language. 

I know a Chinese professor who teaches at a college in Japan. His command of Japanese is just outstanding. In particular, his Japanese writing is better and more formal than mine.

That said, it's not difficult to tell that his text has been written by a foreigner, since he still sometimes uses a very slightly unnatural phrase and wording that educated Japanese people never use.

哎呀，we have a very long way to go........ haha.

Hi pete,

I'm very happy to hear you've started learning Japanese. Welcome to the true world of "multi-reading Chinese characters", haha. As you might already know, a Japanese Kanji usually has several readings, including ones originated in Chinese sounds and ones generated in Japan. For instance, "生" officially has eight readings, and actually more than one hundred if you include all readings used in names of person and place.

I have watched about four hours of Chinese TV

I know watching TV is a very good way to improve your Chinese, but it's a kind of torture for me, a lazy guy, since TV programmes in China are just boring, except for some history/culture subject documentaries. Here are well known TV documentary series titled "岩松看日本", which is one of the few programmes in China that subjectively (and favorably?) introduce Japanese society. If you have time, please enjoy them.

http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=435275&mode=0

And, just for your information, here are links to websites that give you rough sketches of Japan-originated Chinese (transliteration) words, 汉语中的日语借词.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%BC%A2%E8%AA%9E%E4%B8%AD%E7%9A%84%E6%97%A5%E8%AA%9E%E5%80%9F%E8%A9%9E

http://9264875.blog.hexun.com/27385617_d.html

Hi zhenlijiang,

Thanks for the suggestion! I have to say, in almost four years living here, I have watched about four hours of Chinese TV. I learn by reading, and find that I forget a great deal of what I see on screens.

But there's a first time for everything!