China's most famous foreigner

You all make fair points.  And I certainly never meant to imply that this is unique to Chinese people.  Lots of countries feel their language is too rare or difficult for foreigners to learn.

There was a Japanese woman in Armenia when I was there who spoke fluent Armenian.  Everyone was impressed.  More because this Japanese woman took the time to learn Armenian than for any other reason.  I must say though that after the initial shock, when she was clearly able to speak the language, there was no longer any doubt and it became normal.  People didn't continue to question her ability to speak the language (i.e., deny that she could speak the language even to her face while she was speaking it, a la many Chinese circa that same period).  It's that reaction that bothers me.  Some surprise is understandable.

Changye, as for foreigners who speak Japanese really well being strange.  I have to admit, many many many of the people I ran into in Asia who spoke the languages well were all a bit weird, by western standards, too.  You find them on trains, reading the Confucian Analects in Chinese, casting condescending glances at other foreigners ("tourists").  There is something about Asian xenophobia that makes these foreigners try even HARDER to be Asian. They want some "street cred" for having lived there and learned the language.  I.e., they want to be distinguished from those foreigners who have not.  Of course, in a stranger's eye, they will always be a foreigner....so, they will be asked "how did you learn Chinese?" or "do you know how to use chopsticks?" for the rest of their time in China.  And this will grate on their nerves.  And they will become really weird.

Just my humble observation.

in my opinion i just think we adore the foreigner because when we go to school we have to study English,so English is a nightmare for a lot of people. so when they found someone can speak English so good they feel that guy is so cool, at that time we forgot they are foreigners.

Interesting comments. Certainly globalization will change much. Just as traveling to China has corrected many of my misconceptions about China, we should see a more informed attitude toward foreigners.

RJ

Changye & all-

Yes, the situation does exist in other countries/cultures. I have many experiences speaking Arabic with native Arabic speakers and I often have to deal with those who are "too surprised" that I can speak and read their language. I admit sometimes I have felt insulted by this surprise (depends on the extent) and have had to just take a deep breath and reply with a (friendly) "Why can't I speak Arabic? You learned English?"

IMHO, your reasons 2-4 would apply best to the Arab world.

That being said, however, I am met with more appreciation and encouragement (sometimes too much) from native Arabic speakers for my attempts at learning -and using- Arabic than negativity.

Michelle

Hi guys,

I don’t know the situation in other countries, but it seems to me that Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people are somewhat obsessed with the idea that their languages are very difficult to learn for foreign people. The reasons I can come up with are as follows,

1.      They know that their languages are relatively minor in the world.. Even Mandarin is a small language outside China and overseas Chinese society, compared with English, Spanish and French.

2.      Chinese and Japanese people think that mastering Chinese characters, only ideogram set in use now, must be very difficult for foreign people, simply because it is not easy even for them.

3.      East Asian peoples generally take deep pride in their countries, histories and cultures, and therefore they are apt to think their languages are more “special” and “excellent” than other ones.

4.      On the other hand, they have an inferiority complex toward Western countries, and therefore they have tendency to try to ease it by thinking that foreign people can’t master their languages.

5.      In general they have few opportunities to see foreign people or people who can speak more than two languages fluently in their countries, except for some minorities in China. My mother has never met a foreigner.

6.      Furthermore, they readily admit they are not good at learning and speaking foreign languages, which consequently generates belief that foreign people, hopefully, can’t easily master their own languages, either.

Ps. This comment was originally posted in John’s blog.

I lived in Hong Kong as a teen though I was born and raised in Canada (both my parents are Chinese).  When I was in Hong Kong, I remember hearing two persons of East Indian descent speaking perfect Cantonese.  No accent, nothing...just perfect Cantonese.

I remember feeling very impressed.  It was not that I was in awe of their ability to learn Cantonese.  It just was something I had never seen before.  I remember thinking that it was flattering that they would take the time to learn Cantonese.  At that time, learning Chinese was not as popular as it is today and everyone seemed to be wanting to learn Japanese.

Although I'm not originally from China, just thought I'd share that as an add-on to Henning's comments.

Hi guys,

As a native Japanese, let me explain something. In the 80s, there were also some Japanese versions of “大山” in Japan. They were all talented entertainers or commentators who can speak super excellent Japanese, and more importantly they were all Westerners, not an Asian, with blue eyes and fair hair. I heard that a wise American guy dyed his hair blond so that he could more effectively appeal to viewers. I must say he knew Japanese people.

Things are not what they used to be in Japan anymore. You can see a lot of foreign guys on TV, both Westerns and Asians, who speak Japanese fluently, however I think that people’s basic mentality toward foreigners has not changed drastically. In Japan, Westerners who speak natural Japanese are not necessarily regarded as “natural” people. In other words, they are “strange” foreigners, which is commonly translated into Japanese as “変な外人さん”.

The Japanese word “外人さん” should be the counterpart of Chinese “老外”, and it seems to me that both concepts, “老外” and “外人さん”, usually don’t include Asians, especially east Asian people. For example, theoretically I am, of course, “老外” in China, but in reality I am perhaps not “authetic” 老外 in most Chinese people’s consciousness. And the same goes for Chinese and Korean people in Japan, and probably Chinese and Japanese in Korean society.   

I hate to say this, but these sentiments are deeply rooted in traditional mutual disdains among peoples of China, Korea, and Japan, as is often the case with neighboring countries, which have been generated mainly by inferior and superior complexes, rivalry, and historical issues. Of course, I think this mentality should be partly attributed to the fact that the peoples in those three countries commonly have almost the same appearance.

Hello. My own humble "Dashan Theory" is that his appeal in China goes well beyond his staggering Mandarin ability. He has mastered a skill at the very heart of Chinese language and culture, one which is daunting even to most Chinese people. And he has done it on their terms, somehow managing to do justice to their cherished ideas about the essence of 相声. I guess I'm with sophie here...

The closest thing to Dashan that I was able to think of was the achievement of Chef Tateru Yoshino, whose restaurant Stella Maris, in Paris, is accepted by French gastronomes as being a classic French restaurant. FPOD's Christophe (their Gastronomic Expert!) can correct me if I'm wrong!

I was tempted to mention non-Japanese sumo superstars, but don't dare because I think they have a certain weight/build advantage over the native heroes!

Also, it still doesn't answer why there is no non-Chinese, Asian equivalent of 大山 or why Chinese people routinely assume that all Asians speak Chinese even when that is proven to not be the case or why Chinese Americans are assumed to speak Chinese even when they don't.

RJ,

But that's the point.  They are impressed that you learned it.  To them, you are not an idiot.  You must be brilliant if you can learn their oh-so-difficult language that has boggled Western minds for years.  In other words, you are unique among the idiots.

Truthfully, Chinese is not that hard.  There are no cases, no genders, no verb conjugations, and very simple word order. 

There has just never been a good system for teaching it until recent years and that's why so few people have learned it.  That and the fact that during the periods when globalization began to really grow, China was closed off.  You must remember that it wasn't until recent years when China was even open to much foreign travel.

Even in 1999, as a foreigner in China, I had to live in a foreign dorm and was told to eat at the foreign cafeteria.  China's xenophobia may have decreased somewhat since then, and maybe that was a Beijing thing, but still.

I am not sure how this makes sense:  "I could say your knee jerk assumption that the Chinese view their language as superior as racsist on your part."  Many Chinese people do view their language as superior.  Even if they don't, I don't see how my observation that this is the case is racist.

I am with RJ. I think most Chinese feel flattered that we learn their language. It makes them proud. It is evidence that we take culture serious. Not what they expect per default.

I also asked my wife about this. Reply: "And of course we know you westerners can learn our language. You did."

And after a dramatic pause she added: "Halfway".

pulosm - that thought has also crossed my mind but I guess you would have to ask the Chinese whether they view it as "idiot foreigners learning their complicated and superior language", or do they just view it as unusual, knowing that their language is very difficult if not learned from birth and studied later as a second language by anyone?  Few westerners have bothered to learn in the past because it was a lot of work and there was nothing driving the interest. For this reason I am not surprised that they see it as unusual. It could also be a form of respect.I have been treated very well by some older Chinese that hear me speak a little chinese and I didnt get the impression the saw me as an idiot, but as someone who was interested enough to put forth the effort they know is required. This shows respect for them and in return you get respect back. I could say your knee jerk assumption that the Chinese view their language as superior as racsist on your part. Just some alternate thoughts.

Maybe some Chinese members can comment on how they really see it or how they think their fellow countrymen see it.

I think that the Chinese obsession with 大山 (or for that matter any foreigner's ability to speak Chinese well) borders on racist.  The following observations can be made:

Many Chinese people exoticize anyone who speaks Mandarin well.  When I was in Beijing for a semester back in 1999, I was asked to be in commercials, radio interviews, and television shows.  And I wasn't even trying.  I refused.  I am not some monkey there to perform for the entertainment of Chinese people who think it's so amazing that an idiot foreigner could learn their so complicated and superior language.  (That's the undertone, is it not?)

What makes it clear that this is a bit racist is the fact that a Korean or Japanese 大山 wouldn't be impressive to the Chinese masses at all.  Because they are Asian.  Despite the fact that Chinese is just as "hard" for those people to learn.  Yes, Japanese (and to a lesser extent Korean) share some lexical similarities to Chinese, so maybe that's it.  But neither language has pronunciation even CLOSE to Mandarin and the grammatical structure in English (subject-verb-object) is closer to Chinese than Korean or Japanese would be.

When I lived in China, the worst thing was when I would speak Chinese and people would answer to my Korea (non-Chinese-speaking) friend. I would respond back and they would continue to speak to her.  Never once even LOOKING at me.  Is there a Chinesepod lesson on Chinese xenophobia? 

The funny thing is that not-very-attractive-and-would-never-be-actors-in-America people thrive off of this fame.  Look at 大山.  He wouldn't even be put on a five-minute Cheerios commercial anywhere in the West!

Imagine we did the same thing in the West.  Put a Chinese person on TV to show how well they spoke Chinese.  Quizzed them, prodded them, made them to perform.  I don't think that would go over too well.

Sorry.  I can't help but rant about this.

I don't hate 大山.  I actually think that his doing what he has done has somewhat diminished the exoticization of foreigners speaking Chinese.  For that, he truly deserves some cred.

yes, there may even be a show called "cross talk" on the radio. Here the meaning is not comedy, but still a back and forth exchange of ideas.

Hi rjberki,

Thanks for your clear answer. Come to think of it, I think that I probably heard the phrase “cross talking” or something like that on the radio a long time ago. That must have been a political talk show or a discussion program.

Hey guys, this is an interview with the man himself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WseemkcbXxs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FDoEEt7QVps&feature=related

Part 1 and 2 above. Of all that I understood, I found it very interesting. That channel also has some of his crosstalk performances.

Hi Changye,

It makes sense, but the expression is not commonly used. I get the image of a back and forth volley of words between two people, which is what it is. I guess if someone heard the expression without knowing what you were referring to, they may be confused but once an example is given it would make sense. We have no real name for this type of comedy that I know of, even though there have been famous pairs of comedians in the US that do this or something very similar.

Hi rjberki,

Does the word "cross talking" make sense in English? Or is it just a literal translation of "相声" in Chinese？

Wikipedia makes no mention of da shan growing up in China. He started studying Chinese at the Univ of Toronto and was awarded a scholarship to Peking Univ. He later studied cross talking under Jinag Kun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashan

Roswell attended high school at Nepean High School in Ottawa, Ontario. Rowswell began studying Chinese while attending the University of Toronto in 1984. His original Chinese name, as given by his Canadian Chinese-language teacher, was Lu Shiwei (路士伟). Upon graduation from the University of Toronto in 1988, Rowswell was awarded a full scholarship to continue Chinese language studies at Peking University.

Hi sophie,

Thank you for the true etymology of 大山！This episode is just hilarious. Let me partly translate them into Chinese.

＞ 大山原来的中文名叫陆士伟，大山的父亲看不明白“士”字，
＞ 问儿子的名字为何有个加减号，然后大山把名字改为陆世伟。

Mr. Rowswell (大山)’s first Chinese name was 陆士伟 (lu4 shi4 wei3), but his father didn’t know the character “士” in it, and asked why there was a plus/minus mark (±) in the name. After that Mr. Rowswell changed the name from 陆士伟 to 陆世伟 (lu4 shi4 wei3).

＞ 大山在北京大学餐厅吃饭时，听到服务员高喊另一位厨师
＞ “大山，大山，快端菜”，朋友们都说“大山”这个名字好，
＞ 然后，陆世伟改名为“大山”

When Mr. Rowswell had a meal at a cafeteria at Peking University, he happened to hear a waitperson shouting at a cook, “大山，大山，Hurry up with the dish!" And his friends who were there then told him that 大山 was a very good name. Later he changed 陆世伟 to 大山.

大山 名字的由来：

大山在中国是个家喻户晓的人物。这位原名为Mark Rowswell的加拿大人，在多伦多大学完成四年的汉语学习后，来到中国的北京大学进修。大山原来的中文名叫陆士伟，大山的父亲看不明白“士”字，问儿子的名字为何有个加减号，然后大山把名字改为陆世伟。再后来，大山在北京大学餐厅吃饭时，听到服务员高喊另一位厨师“大山，大山，快端菜”，朋友们都说“大山”这个名字好，然后，陆世伟改名为“大山”。1989年，大山在中国春节晚会上表演相声，令近9亿观众认识了他。此时24岁的大山正式拜姜昆为师。大山的太太是四川人，最拿手的菜自然是川菜。大山很喜欢媳妇烧的菜。大山谦称自己在家务方面没有特别拿得出手的绝活，只能给媳妇当下手。过去十多年来，大山曾被中国杂志列为“20年来在中国最有影响的外国人之一”，2000年，他又被加拿大多伦多大学评为“20世纪最有影响的100名校友”之一。美国《时代周刊》预计大山将成为“未来将塑造21世纪的青年之一”。大山的老师姜昆说：“大山”的名字起得好，一是叫起来上口，有一种“俗”、“土”的感觉，还有就是北京人有“侃大山”的说法，“大山”一词明显有京味文化在其中。

maybe someone can translate it. i can't do it.

Hi pchenery,

A good point. I’d like to believe your hypothesis so that I can console myself with the thought that my command of Chinese is not nearly as good as that of 大山 simply because I didn’t live in China when I was young.

But come to think of it, Mr. Rowswell was born in 1965, which was the year before 文化大革命 (The Cultural Revolution, 1966～1977) beban in China. I don’t think it was easy for foreign children to stay in China at that time. And on second thought, I got it, 大山 must have spent his childhood in Formosa, not in China!

Joking aside, I’ve come up with another possible reason why Mr. Rowswell selected 大山 as his stage name. His full name is Mark Henry Rowswell, and the shape of “M” in his given name “Mark” is similar to that of the Chinese character “山” in 甲骨文 (oracle bone script) or 金文 (bronze inscription).

More importantly, the English word “mountain (山)” also begins with “M”. I’ve seen his autograph before, and the “M” in it really resembled the shape of a mountain. In that sense, “大山” was very cleverly named by Mr. Rowswell.

i think he is so famous not because his perfect mandarin. just because he can speak comic dialogue(相声)  and with 姜昆（very famours in chinese, he is a 大师级的人物）。

Talent and hard work ?  Maybe, but perhaps not.

It's more like Da Shan spent a significant part of his childhood growing up in China, and so, naturally, his Mandarin is going to be perfect. Most people just hear the published story of how he studied at university in Canada and then went to China where he "mastered" the language.

Talent and hard work!

I work with someone who is a native speaker who was born and raised in China... He is a great source of help for me explaining grammar points and correcting my tones when needed... he tells me that 大山 speaks Chinese better than he does.  So that tells me how much work and effort he has put in to learning the language.  Like azerdocmom stated so well, there is definitely a little more to it than just being in the right place at the right time, there has to be talent there for him to have attained such status.

There is a Beijing dialect "侃大山" (kan3 da4 shan1). It means "聊天" (liao2 tian1, chat), just as chat rooms are called “聊天室” on the Internet. I guess this might be one of the reasons why Mr.Rowswell selected "大山" for his Chinese name. Chinese people would probably think this way, 哎哟，那个老外真的名不虚传，很会说话呀！

Is Da Shan any better than ring announcer Michael Buffer of "Let's get ready to rumble" fame?  Get in first, with a good presentation, look good, sound good, trade mark and register.

That's interesting, Brent. He downplays his Chinese fluency, but it's more than just being at the right place at the right time. It's the right place, the right time and with the right talent.

So "Da Shan" is a character that this person plays. 

While I was in China a number of years ago my impression of Da Shan was mostly positive.  If people asked me if I knew him, I'd say yes...anything to build points (would also not correct people when they assumed I was German...Mr. Bushi was not very popular when I was there). 

I guess we all have to play our part to some extent.

Yeah, it's true that Da Shan is almost unknown here in Canada.

Although, he is now appearing in Ford TV commercials when they have local Mandarin programming.

And most Chinese folks tell me that it is not such a novelty anymore for a Westerner to speak perfect Mandarin. Da Shan truly was in the right place at the right time.