User Comments - tingyun

Posted on: Which is better: China or the USA?

I've recently started using the Baidu encyclopedia for its dictionary - I just tried entering in 发展 and right away it did a good job of explaining it (and even noted the difference with 发达) - you might find it useful, check it out: http://baike.baidu.com/view/141536.htm

Posted on: Which is better: China or the USA?

发展, verb, is the process of developing, 发达, adjective, is the state of being well developed.

Aren't 双书名号 - 《》- usually used for proper names of movies, books, etc? I don't think they are the same thing as quotation marks generally.

Posted on: The Rising Cost of Food

Outside of being a measure word, it has several other uses, many deriving from a root meaning of individual:

个人 individual, personal - 这只是我个人的看法 Its just my personal opinion...

个体 individual (often in a more formal sense, like for example if you wanted to say a business was a sole proprietorship, you would use this)

个性 - personality

各个 - each and every (adverb or pronoun)

个个 - every one (adverb)

Actually, in the last two examples I think 个 is arguably being used in a measure word sense (ie I think that's how it contributes its meaning to the compound), but that's a pretty technical point, and it retains its 4th tone in these cases.

And then there are meanings about a person's size -

个子, 个儿 stature, height

Oh, one thing to Note: though used as a pure measure word 个 turns neutral, an 一 before 个 will still become 2nd tone as if the 个 were still 4th tone and tone change rules applied. Alot of tone change rules operate this way, ie in most 3rd tone reduplication, ex 远远, the 2nd character goes neutral but the first charecter still changes from a 3rd tone to a 2nd. Exceptions include some fixed examples like, for most speakers, 好好 being 3rd and 1st tone, or most uses of 子 as a neutral suffix [ie, 老子 for 'daddy, in both literal and other sense' will be a 3rd tone followed by a neutral, while 老子 for the philosopher (子 retains its 3rd tone used as a suffix meaning 'master') would be 2nd tone followed by 3rd. Actually, according to the biography written by his doctor Mao Zedong once used this as a pun...]

班廷筠

Posted on: 学历造假

Hi Phil2010,

If you can do Advanced lessons, for your goals I'd strongly suggest you take a look at the recently made 3 kingdoms tv series 《三国》Now, the language is very advanced, so you may not understand a lot of it, but for your pronunciation practice goal I think it is unmatched.

The reasons are 1) almost every speaking character is male, and there's a great diversity in their voices. But with few exceptions they tend to be very manly sort of voices even compared with normal males, especially 曹操，张飞，关羽, and basically all the generals (who constitute the majority) 2) They speak very, very slowly, and tend to take pauses mid sentence. Generally speaking, they will read 6-8 characters, and then most of the time you will have enough time to repeat those 6-8 characters back mimicking their voice, before they will begin to say the next 6-8 characters. It depends on the context, but this rule seems to hold true unless they are in some heated argument (and most of the show is calm speeches or measured discussions) 3) They speak very, very clearly. Even if you don't know the meaning of the chengyu they are saying, you will still generally be able to mimic back the pronunciation no problem, because it is pronounced so clearly.

So for pure watching or vocab learning it might or might not be a bit too ambitious content wise, but for pronunciation practice I think it would fit your desires perfectly. I think in terms of influence on pronunciation, the most important thing is the materials you mimic, not necessarily what you listen to, at least in terms of say, the average level of your tones (which is easily the most significant male female difference in pronunciation) Obviously not a perfect solution given what you are asking for, but it might hold you over for awhile.

班廷筠

Posted on: Can't Get a Taxi

Hi bodawei,

Yes, it was a funny post, I got the joke. :)

Sorry, I think my comment about 不至于 was unclear - I mean the nature of the result listed after 不至于 (ie the result being denied), not the tone of the whole sentence. Ie, if you phrase the result as 'make poor people any happier' (as in your above formulation）, then that‘s a positive result, while if you phrase it as 'make poor people unhappy' then that's a negative result. The positiveness or negativeness for this purpose is not judged by the sentence as a whole (which is of course negative, in that you are saying poor people won't be made happy), but rather by the clause following the 不至于 (which is in fact going to have the opposite positive/negative status of the sentence in this case, as denying a negative result leads to a positive outcome and vice versa).I don't think there's a way to express your meaning without having a positive result after the 不至于.

A good example of 不至于would be a highly colloquial use - one friend comments to the other that his girlfriend is going to break up with him because he forgot to call her last night, and he replies '不至于吧！' (here the clause after 不至于 is omitted as it often is in such colloquial uses, but is implicitly 'her breaking up with me', a negative result that is being denied, while the meaning as a whole is of course positive 'she won't break up with me')

But honestly I really did mean this was a very minor issue, because it can be used both ways (just a tendency to see it paired that way) - the real issue is that it should mean a deepening of the level, and in many ways an implicit acceptance of a lower degree. Ie, in my example above, the boyfriend is sort of accepting that the girlfriend may be mad, or engage in some retaliation, but just is denying that the degree will reach the level of breaking up. I think its the presence of a relationship of degree that is most important - maybe if the sentence was rephrased something like will help a portion of the population, but 不至于 help those in the most desperate situations, the very poor - though I think there are better grammatical structures in this case.

On your second point, I think 以至于 is the grammar structure you want, as it fits well with your original phrasing. If you wanted to eliminate any implication of causality, you could instead use 甚至 or 甚而至于, as in something like 'He has completely forgotten his political allies, he 甚至 turned his back on them in passing tax cuts'。 But I think either the 甚 or the 以 is going to be needed (depending on your meaning), 至于 alone shouldn't be used for this meaning in the modern language.

Anyway, I just like talking grammar, so I tend to write long posts - sorry if I blab on for too long。

Tim

Posted on: Can't Get a Taxi

I think perhaps these aren't the most accurate uses of 至于.

不至于 is more getting at a deepening of a relationship, or an inability to reach a certain level - so it might work better if you were saying something like "it might slow the rise of unemployment, but 不至于cause economic recovery." Also, 不至于 has some tendency to be followed by negative results, so unless you like poor people staying unhappy...;) (though this rule isn't absolute, and it can sometimes be used for good results, it does add just a tiny bit of unnaturalness that combined with the first reason makes it seem rather out of place) A better way to express the meaning of that clause (while retaining a 至于) might be something like -至于救济穷人，这项政策不会起到任何作用。 Though I'm not sure whether 不会起到 or 起不到 is the better choice in that sentence...Anyone have any thoughts? I'm torn because it seems to be a combination of predicting future results of policy - leading to 会 - and discussing the nature and potentialities of the bill itself - leading to 起不到.

The above use of 至于 is also problematic - it tends to have two uses, first to set off a topic for discussion, second use is to mean to reach a certain level or result (but usually reserved for rhetorical questions and negation). I think you were thinking of 以至于。。。though in this case 以致于 might be the better choice (if the meaning is more focused on the causal relationship, with a tone of disapproval, rather than the deepening of the intensity or level). But if you didn't only mean so that forgetting of supporters caused the tax cuts (with a tone of regret), but rather your meaning was that the level deepened - ie something close to 'forgot his supports, and even therefore cut taxes...' (still retains causal meaning but tone emphasizes the continuation or deepening of the process), then 以至于 would be the right choice. Though I think this is sort of like 蜕化，退化 - its a subtle distinction that not all speakers pay attention to. Also, both 以致于 and 以至于 should be followed with the result - not a motive or cause (I was a bit unsure what role your 'to cut taxes for the rich' was playing)

Posted on: Dreams of the Departed 陇西行

Hi RJ,

Yah, when the series was still being produced I wasn't really ready to appreciate it, so I paid more attention to the regular lessons. Its a shame they aren't more - since the poems are pretty short, 20 isn't a great deal.

Actually, I just realized I have a collection of poems/explanations you might enjoy from one of my classes, I'll email it to you. Its mostly Tang poems with some notes to help understanding, somewhat similar to Poems by Pete (though dryer, not having Pete's fun dialogue)

Posted on: Dreams of the Departed 陇西行

I believe Pete has made an error here in interpreting 无定河 as a unit. Two principles essential for understanding Tang poetry are the Caesura (breakup of line into units) and parallelism within couplets. Jumping to 无定河 as a unit violates both of these. While the poem is certainly talking about the 无定河 (and the prominence of that name may have something to do with people reading this poem), in structure I believe something more poetic and interesting is going on.

First, Caesura. In Tang poetry, a 5 character line poem is broken up 2-3 (ie, first two characters grouped together in meaning, final 3 grouped together) and a 7 character line poem is 4-3. The - represents the Caesura, a line which is very, very rarely crossed in meaning. So in the line in question, we have 可怜无定-河边骨. In other words, 河边骨 is a unit.

This is confirmed by parallelism with the other line in the couplet, 犹是春闺梦里人. Examine 河边骨 together with 梦里人 - 河=梦, 边=里,骨=人. In this kind of Tang poetry, parallelism between the two lines in a couplet is a very strong presumption, though there are occasional violations. It would be very strange to imagine both rules being violated, and that interpretation should only come after there is not a reasonable way to read the poem conforming to the rules.

In fact, I think it is more poetic following the rules. 无定河 is certainly the name of the river he is talking about, but directly using its name is rather straightforward and unimaginative for this poem. Now, since 无定河 got its name because of its characteristic of being 无定 in the middle Tang, it can certainly have the characteristic 无定 ascribed to it, either in lamenting this aspect of the river (by some analogy to war) or simply used as a poetically shorter way of indicating the river itself (this poem might be subject to either interpretation, and perhaps both are true - which would be the most interesting. ie both lamenting the aspect and designating the river). Either way, 河stays where it belongs associated with 边骨, and meaning does not cross over the Caesura, and parallelism is respected.

While Pete's transcript and lesson audio take the opposite interpretation, the Chinese reader properly reads the first 4 characters together, followed by a slowed reading of the last 3.

Anyway, I just discovered poems by Pete and I really like it, and I am impressed by the wonderful job he did (I think I'm going to work through the series, its given me a new reason to visit Cpod). The above is not intended as a criticism of him, but rather to stress the importance of these two essential principles in interpreting Tang poetry. Though the literal meaning of the poem is the same in either case, the deeper sense of it, and the way the meaning is expressed, is different, and these interpretative principles are especially useful in cases like this - where the obvious reading of 无定河 as an easily recognizable compound is contradicted by the structure, which leads to a more nuanced interpretation of the poem (and often leads to radically different meanings, as can be seen in many other poems).

EDIT - I just took a look at Pete's first poem, 游子吟, and it occurred to me the most useful aspect of understanding the Caesura for practical purposes is probably not for deciding between interpretations, but rather as a set framework of expectation - so that when you read the poem, you know the kind of structure to expect and it all just makes sense alot easier. Somewhat like the use of punctuation in Modern language - you'd probably figure out where sentences/clauses start and end anyway, but its much smoother with the help of understanding periods and commas.

Posted on: 出租白人

Hi Bababardwan,

Glad it was helpful! I really love talking about learning Chinese resources...at one point I was quite proud of having the amazon top ranked review of Rosetta Stone Chinese (1 star), and I hope some of the 450 'helpful votes' people took my advice and came to Chinese Pod instead. Of course now they released 'version 4' and I imagine my review will sit in the graveyard of discontinued products...so sad. http://www.amazon.com/Rosetta-Stone-V3-Mandarin-Companion/dp/B001AFCWBO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1289949694&sr=8-4

It was fun chatting with you over these threads the past couple of days, and send me a private message if you run into any problems using Handian or I can help with anything else. :)

Zhenlijiang,

Hmm, I wouldn't go so far as to choose bad english - I more meant that in translating for learning purposes, sometimes I think its ok to go with a slightly less eloquent and natural english formulation, if the reader will be better informed and guided in the chinese meaning. For example, 'Incredible' might be the best translation in general, but as a learner maybe something that has 'causes one' for 令人 and some verb or phrase that fits 诧异 after that, maybe 'to be shocked' or 'to feel surprised' - but of course here I've introduced another problem, in that I've introduced to be verb or a feel verb where the Chinese didn't have it. Really, I think where I feel most strongly on this is in Chengyu and Suyu - but there I think its best to have a natural english translation, followed by the literal meaning in parenthesis. I remember when I first graduated to Intermediate level at chinese pod, in one lesson we had 钻牛角尖 zuan1niu2jiao3jian1, followed by a wonderful colloquial translation of its meaning in English. The problem was at that time I thought 角jiao3 only meant corner or angle, and I had no idea what 尖jian1 sharp could be doing here. I don't think it would make sense to ditch the nice english translation for something as blunt as 'drill into the tip of a cow's horn‘， but having that also provided in parenthesis after the proper english equivalent goes a great way to teaching people how we go from the charecters of a chengyu or suyu to its meaning, and thus prepares them to later reason sayings out themselves, as well as better remember the individual saying. Whereas in pure translation for say a movie, of course, just give the nice sounding english. The only reason I menotion it with 令人 is it falls into that category of 2 charecter first halfs used to make 4 charecter expressions (like 不屑 bu2xie4 (not lower one's self to do - ie refuse to do) and confusingly 不懈bu2xie4 (not neglect to do, ie be unremitting in doing) ). But I'm really just speaking from a learner's perspective - I've never confronted the difficulty of actually trying to translate.

Haha, not displacement at all - rather, it was sort of like visiting an old friend. I loved learning at Chinesepod, and it was a solid companion for a very long term of study, so it was fun to stare at the familiar screens and talk to people here again. Actually, while I do have a paper to write, I'm mostly returning to watching Chinese 武侠 tv dramas. But somehow I feel silly saying "Well, I've been neglecting my tv watching, time to get back to it..."

Anyway, I didn't want to run off without checking for responses, feels a bit rude (like walking away mid conversation). :)

Posted on: 出租白人

It looks pretty good to me. But sometimes I think translation for language learning should be different than idiomatic/eloquent translation for other purposes, in particular it shouldn't conceal the structure. Since 令人 and 诧异 are both terms that a learner might need help with, maybe it would be best to translate as two words, one each indicating each of the meanings (though I don't think I have any talent at translation, so I'm useless for suggestions on what ;) ). The other problem might be that 'incredible', given the meaning of 'too implausible to be credible', seems an almost perfect fit for something like 令人难以置信, and since there are definitely differences between this and 令人诧异, it would seem to warrant a different definition that reflects these differences.

But I really have no talent at translating, so I'm just full of problems and no suggestions. ;)

Anyway, thanks for your kind comment! I really enjoyed visiting Cpod again for a few days, though time to spot procrastinating on papers and the like, so I probably won't be back for awhile...