The fastest path to fluency
pretzellogic
July 04, 2010 at 09:45 AM posted in General DiscussionThis is more a casual hypothesis than anything else. Also, at the end of the day, it's something that would have been somewhat intuitive anyway about learning a language. I think the key is that, even though this hypothesis is intuitive, in practice, in the real world, people do not actually do this when they learn a new language.
The hypothesis is based on the idea that shadowing, and casual review of statements of progress with Cpod from simonpettersson, xiaophil, themainman and others suggests that if a user of cpod seriously wants to learn Mandarin fast, then the path might be to:
- say out loud the Chinese you're learning, but create your own sentences.
-- creating a sentence in this context is as simple as changing 1 word or phrase.
You must remember this phrase (thanks Sifu Campbell):
- 100 times to know:
- 1000 times to get good at
- 10000 times to master.
The hypothesis is that saying out loud the sentences forces you to hear yourself speaking, so you can correcct your pronunciation.
Creating your own sentence 1000 times forces you to really create the language in your head, where you need it anyway.
Or maybe this is the theory behind why shadowing is effective. who knows.
SF_Rachel
July 07, 2010 at 08:33 PM
It's tempting to say "this way is the best way" -- or the fastest way -- implying that any other way is inferior. The subtext behind most people's comments here though does suggest that we all respect that there are other ways.
Not only is what's right for me possibly wrong for you, but what's best for me this quarter is very likely going to be very different from what's best for me next quarter, or next year.
In fact, I'm finding that changing up my study routines every few months yields noticeable benefits, particularly in accelerating the pace of learning. Especially if you're not living in-language (i.e., if you're not in China!), sticking too rigidly to the same study routines tends to conceal weaknesses that any current regime may neglect. You can't exercise all your muscles at once!
pretzellogic
July 08, 2010 at 09:58 AM
well there it is.... I never doubted that there was a method to cpod's madness. It's interesting to look at some of these references to Lewis' work and realize that's what Ken was referring to in all those lessons. I guess what I'm thinking now is that the study needs to be taken to the next level.
xiao_liang
July 08, 2010 at 09:36 AM
No, it is there! RIght, I WILL make a link work!
http://chinesepod.com/packages/courses/individual/method
xiao_liang
July 08, 2010 at 08:49 AM
There some details of research about halfway down this page (from "our pedagogical approach"):
I think this is an older version of the site which has been replaced, so read it quick :-)
edit: ok, link posting is broken :-p Make a link out of the following elements:
http://chinesepod.com/
packages/
courses/
individual/
method
pretzellogic
July 08, 2010 at 02:46 AM
Though you may be right that there's no one answer, there may indeed be a best way that has been demonstrated in peer-reviewed research. I haven't found any peer-reviewed study-effectiveness research yet in my casual searches. Or maybe I don't know what this field of study is called by the practitioners and participants.
Frank(shaoxlee)_Shenzhen_China
July 07, 2010 at 10:15 AM
The most effective way is listening more,reading more,practicing more. What a shit, but it really counts(matters,which is right?)
说实话， 我现在不想再给别人解释学习方法的问题了. 一个字. 烦.
说服一个人没那么容易，现在是成王败寇的时代，在你没有成绩,数据的时候，别人是不会相信你的.
而且这里面有选择性输入，心理因素.(hepe you can hope these words)
所以，条条道路通罗马. all roads to rome,guys. It is just about time
pretzellogic
July 08, 2010 at 02:38 AM
maybe after another 600 characters i'll be able to get all this without resorting to google translate. :-)
But you may be right.
Frank(shaoxlee)_Shenzhen_China
July 07, 2010 at 08:53 AM
I agree on create your own sentence.
Read aloud only is really boring. You can aslo ask yourself how and why for particular things to build your context in your mind
eg.
how will you do if you run into your chinese firends?
How not to offend them?
I think it is task learning style 任务型学习
xiao_liang
July 07, 2010 at 09:23 AM
From recent experience, I think Frank tends to take things very literally. It's safe to say that it's only one of MANY learning techniques that go into our holistic approach to language learning, right? ;-)
pretzellogic
July 07, 2010 at 09:12 AM
if we went all the way with this theory, then you'd learn alot of Chinese by just reading the Cpod dialogues out loud, and of course, i'm not saying that.
xiaophil
July 06, 2010 at 12:38 AM
I do indeed recommend speaking Chinese aloud. It might be helpful to voice out sentence patterns while changing certain words, but that does sound a bit boring to me. I have in the past read aloud CPod's dialogs, even acting it out a bit with my voice, and I thought that was beneficial. Reading aloud books, newspaper articles and magazines can also help, but obviously one risks sounding like a, well, book.
The reason reading aloud is important, essential even, is because conversing is a physical activity, even if it is just the mouth and lungs doing the work. Not speaking a language while studying a language is like a soccer coach giving the team a manual and saying that they are playing a game tomorrow, so study carefully-no practice, though!
pretzellogic
July 04, 2010 at 11:50 PM
My take is even in China, you'd better be careful which crowd you fall in with. In Beijing, Shanghai, other big cities, there are so many English speaking expats that you could easily speak English all day in China as well.
chanelle77
July 04, 2010 at 10:20 AM
Many Chinese (in their infinite wisdom) shared their secret, "the fastest path to fluency is a Chinese spouse" :-).
xiaophil
July 06, 2010 at 12:36 AM
It is indeed hard to switch primary communication languages with someone--regardless if it is a significant other or what not. It's either like saying "hey, I'm better than you now, nah hah," or forcing them to baby talk only to benefit you. But then again, my wife and I speak mostly Chinese together now. (I couldn't speak Chinese when we first met!) She has no special love for English and just wants to communicate, so for her, speaking Chinese is no problem.
As for the benefits of having a Chinese significant other for learning Chinese, the pros usually outweigh the cons, but not always. Chinese people seem to generally lack the concept of 'it's polite to include everyone in the conversation', and will default on whoever is easiest to talk to. (I know a married Chinese women who lives with her in-laws. At dinner time, her mother-in-law will often say something to her husband like "is your wife still hungry?" even though she is present!) So when my wife is talking to other people, they generally ignore me. I sometimes butt in, but honestly, it feels like I am forcing myself in, so it becomes listening practice.
xiao_liang
July 05, 2010 at 06:47 PM
Yea. I would say listening comprehension is THE hardest thing about learning Chinese. Even harder than characters. Then you throw in regional accents and ... well, heh!
trevorb
July 05, 2010 at 06:25 PM
I'm so glad you said that, I have no luxury of a chinese speaking partner but am noticing with my guided tutor speaking is.....well okayish......understanding is so hard.....
I often listen to the dialog before I have had a chance to read the transcripts and get totally lost! Then I read the transcript and think "ah that's what they said" after that I hear the right thing.
I try listening to films in mandarin and other sources to get familiar with the music but I suspect that this is translation lag. I am trying to translate into english to understand when I should be just trying to understand the mandarin directly....
xiao_liang
July 05, 2010 at 10:41 AM
It's really hard, speaking personally. When you've conducted a relationship in English, then trying to speak in Chinese is a very difficult mental shift. Speaking isn't so bad, it's the understanding when they reply that becomes really difficult. Because they're not teachers, they tend to just speak as they normally would, which makes comprehension tricky, which further discourages you from attempting Chinese communication...
chanelle77
July 05, 2010 at 10:41 AM
Good question, yes. I cannot speak for them as I married a Dutchmen, but I hope a lot (if one is serious about learning the language)! I never have been embarrassed (and refuse to be hahaha) by my lower level when speaking with Chinese (with good English) whether it is a teacher, ayi, husband's colleagues, friends etc. I think it is very important to speak "sans gêne". No one expects you to be perfect and it is great practice. I often say (with a smile and in Chinese), it is China so we speak Chinese :-). You can always switch to English if it really is necessary but try if you can is my point of view!
hkboy
July 05, 2010 at 10:18 AM
You bring up a good point. I wonder how many language learners try to speak to their Chinese spouses, friends in Chinese? It seems a bit strange and awkard if your level is fairly low and your spouse's/friend's English level is high.
chanelle77
July 05, 2010 at 09:18 AM
Well there are different definitions out there for fluency, one I like is being able to hold a conversation on any given topic for about 10 mins....
I have been in China for about 2 years, been here since '08 but went back for half a year in between. Studied for about 2 years I guess. Just finished a semester at uni and yes I think you have a good point about the quantity there. Also, special things pop up there, or other words than the the ones used irl. I like the combination of uni / cpod / self study and real life, max exposure I guess. Worked well for me :-).
pretzellogic
July 04, 2010 at 11:45 PM
Definitely speaking English is a problem! Speaking English can be a problem in China as well, especially when you fall in with the expat crowd.
pretzellogic
July 04, 2010 at 11:42 PM
Interesting. I was starting to thing the metric for fluency was when you could finally dream in Chinese. But i guess it's not a light switch, you gradually dream one sentence in Chinese, then 2, then so on.
Chanelle, I don't know how long you've been in China, but I do recall you posting that you're also studying at a university. Studying Chinese at a university is really helpful in getting to 10000 sentences quicker, but it also appears you've taken the initiative to think of these sentences on your own.
chanelle77
July 04, 2010 at 10:37 PM
Same here :-) I discovered "the secret" too late. When I told them I was married already, more than once I got the reply: "oh no problem, you can marry someone else! hahaha, very practical indeed.
Besides Chinese partners, I think it is getting out there (China or Chinese speaking environment) and grab every opportunity to speak. Works for me :-) If there is no one to speak to, I talk to myself, or try to think in Chinese....After 2 years I sometimes dream in Chinese. Funny thing is I am fluent then (not irl though).
pretzellogic
July 08, 2010 at 02:31 AMOk, having thrown this hypothesis into the street for others to consider and contemplate, I did a casual internet search and found this:
http://tep.uoregon.edu/resources/faqs/outsidehelp/study.html
what I thought was interesting was the
1) levels of study required to get A's,B's and so on
2) a few references to "research".
Ultimately, I was thinking that someone had actually studied study techniques in a clinical research environment and had results that were peer-reviewed and published in a journal of some note. I haven't found anything yet.