Does the writing system have an impact on the language?

 汉字 is evolve from  白话，白话 was  naissance on about 1921 in China，it was inventive from RuXun，he was from ShaoXin ZheJiang China and a literaturer，literature have a 孔乙己 and so on.孔乙己 stand for old of ideaistic china，but fatuity of his from old society in china.If you are interested in 孔乙己 and will have read it

I recently read an article in the Spiegel on the language savant Daniel Tammet who is able to learn a language in about a week. Here is the English version

The following paragraph struck me:

Grammar doesn't interest him. Instead, he lets himself be carried along by the language, looking for patterns in the mess of sentences he hears, tying words together into related groups. "Small, round things often start with 'Kn' in German," he says, pointing out Knoblauch (garlic), Knopf (button) and Knospe (bud). Then there are the long, thin things that often begin with "Str," like Strand (beach), Strasse (street) and Strahlen (rays).

What this basically says is that Tammet is forming 汉字 for German - and that the logic behind 汉字 might indeed be found in every language. No matter what the actual writing system is. Indeed, one might even speculate that somebody who excels at a certain language is better at grasping the hidden 汉字 behind it (?).

Some radical Chinese leaders and scholars, 毛泽东 included, tried to realize complete romanization of Mandarin soon after the establishment of the PRC in order to reduce the burden of learning so many characters. Chinese characters were thought to be a symbol of fuedalism in those days, which hampered development of Chinese society.

The introduction of Hanyu Pinyin in 1950s virtually had two aspects for Chinese authorities. One is that providing a tool that enables people to easily learn Chinese characters in 普通话. The other is that soothing radical reformers by "fooling" them into believing that Hanyu Pinyin is the first step in romanization of Mandarin.

Anyway, I think that Chinese leaders must have excellent foresight at that time because Hanyu Pinyin is supurbly useful for inputting characters in the computer era. The phonetic alphabets are very helpful not only for Chinese people but also for usforeign learners of Mandarin, although they are not necessarily perfect phonetic symbols.

Just a mere thought: pinyin will never replace 汉字, take my word for it. Just like the international phonetic alphabet will never replace western alphabets. The sound is only part of the word; its graphic representation brings more meaning, as you all know very well :) The risk is more coming from English, or even 'Globish'...

(as I take yet another little break--at the moment my work fails to engage me)

May I just throw in a simpleton's view here?  Isn't Pinyin symbols, or code, indicating what sounds are to be uttered--not at all a written language?  Is it completely off, to say that Pinyin is not a form of the Chinese language which in writing is only represented in hanzi?

henning,

Small components with meanings pumped into them and further compression being encouraged--fascinating word no matter how you look at it!   I know nothing about German but am intrigued.

Henning

interesting point, but the Chinese do manage to talk on the phone with the absence of physical cues. When extra info is needed you tend to give it. In written language one tends to set the stage before just rambling on. Even in english this is necessary.

rj,
let me speculate more here - be aware, that I am neither a linguist nor a sinologist...

Isn't the ambiguity of the characters usually solved on a syntax only level? I.e. (to copy that hilarious example from kimiik in the Zombie discussion): You know the 道长 in 僵尸道长 is most probably "Dao master" and not "Long road" because of the 僵尸. The surrounding characters are a major clue (I admit that in this case the Pinyin would probably be less ambiguous then the character version).

However, there is also quite a lot of context on a semantic level, e.g. physical surroundings, non-verbal cues, the social framing of a situation, etc. - and that is not at all reflected in the written language.

zhenlijiang,
there is another interesting difference here - in the German version, neither "Scha", nor "den" or "de" do have a meaning on their own. The characters however pump meaning in every little component of a word. This encourages further compressing - which in turn might influence the language as a whole from a different side. 

sue3,
as you said: it is a matter of context - and there is more context in the richer, spoken language than in the written form. And besides: The messages you try to put into formal written communication is often more complex, more differenciated, and more abstract than your everyday spoken communication. It is thereby easier affected by ambiguity.

I also noticed that often spoken Chinese seems to indeed prefer "longer versions". Simple example: Where there is a 的时候 in the spoken version you often only find a 时 in more formal, written stuff...

Sue - Good question. There are also many characters with several meanings, depending on context, so they are not absolute either.

Ah, but isn't spoken Chinese pinyin with only the distinction of the 4 (or 5) tones ? So how do we get our mind around the fact that we manage quite well with pinyin in the spoken language (the context determines which "shi3" or whatever is meant - apparently without too much ambiguity) and yet we need the characters in written Chinese ? Why this discrepancy ?  

... yes, and to express the same in Japanese or English you require:

毀損の喜び (kison no yorokobi) "joy in damage"  - 7 syllables

... but to many Japanese that will not mean anything, esp w/out context.  Much more common to say

他人の不幸は蜜の味 (ta-nin no fukou wa mitsu no aji) "the misfortune of another is the taste of honey" - 11

pleasure derived from another's misfortune - 11

Definitely luscious--as 成语s are.

(OK I really need to get back to work now)

But guess what, that one word spans across 4 syllables:
Scha-den-freu-de.

:)

henning,

Yeah I love how you have that one word for what in Chinese is the 成语 幸灾乐祸--just luscious.

Hi I'm a chinese,if you know china,i will like talk about it,but you will teach english for me.I very like englis,but how is study it.

 我是一个中国人，如果你们想了解中国，我愿意跟你们交流。但你们要教我英语，我非常喜欢英语，但我不知道怎么学好它啊，非常乐意与你们做朋友。

I'm a chinese,if

Hi henning

As is often the case, some of these loanwords have meanings that are different from original ones. 

아르바이트 (Arbeit) side job, moonlighting
봄베 (Bombe) cylinder, canister
룸펜 (Lumpen) vagabond, bum
노이로제 (Neurose) neurosis
프레파라트 (Praparat) prepared slides for microscope
테마 (Thema) theme
기브스 (Gips) plaster cast for medical use
겔렌데 (Gelande) slope for skiing
샬레 (Schale) petri dish
데마 (Demagogie) false rumor

Thanks for all the facinating input!

changye,

those are indeed strange choices for word import...工作， 炸弹, (擦)布， 破衣服， 神经官能症/神经病， 制剂， 主题， 石膏 , 地形, 碗, 哗众取宠 (?).
Kindergarten, Rucksack, Schadenfreude (sigh, Blitzkrieg) might be concepts not available in English. But don't they have rags, bombs, bowls, topics or terrains in Japan and Korea??

zhenlijiang,
I don't know about med schools. Long ago, when I was studying for my final exams in the University of Cologne, I used to spend a lot of time in the law library - because it was the only one that was opening at 6 in the morning. And it was filled with Koreans. So I asked some good friends who went for the dark side and became lawyers what the reason was behind this. And that was the answer.

henning,

For the same reason do med schools in Germany also have a significant Korean contingent?  So much of the terminology is German, Japanese med students too of course study it.

Recently though there's been a move, in clinical contexts, to get the appropriate Japanese term to take root in place of such terminology as "informed consent" for instance, which again, as a relatively new concept we have been using straight from the English katakana-ized.  And now I forget of course, what Japanese was being proposed, as it hasn't quite taken root.  It's been pointed out that esp for the elderly, all these "used-as-imported" terms are difficult to understand and very unhelpful.  All part of the badly-needed improvement of medical services in Japan.

(for some reason I'm really looking forward to tagging some future post of mine "irrelevant question".)

PS:  Wish we were hearing from some "actual" Korean poddies too!  Are you there--?

Hi changye叔叔.

Thanks for the corrections and I still don't believe that you're just an elementary student of Korean. :P

Hi henning,

There are some loanwords from German used in Korean, and most of them were imported through Japanese when Korea was under Japanese rule. I guess that there are more German-originated words used in Japanese than in Korean, because Korean people have been trying to purge "Japanesque" loanwords, even if they are actually originated in countries other than Japan.

아르바이트 (Arbeit)
봄베 (Bombe)
룸펜 (Lumpen)
노이로제 (Neurose)
프레파라트 (Praparat)
테마 (Thema)
기브스 (Gips)
겔렌데 (Gelande)
샬레 (Schale)
데마 (Demagogie)

Hi hitokiri

Almost!

사장 社長 (company president)
선물 膳物 (present, gift)
위하다 (為하다) (for the sake of)
태광 泰光 This is the name of a company!

한 is an indigenous Korean word for "one". I made a mistake, sorry!

Vocab (from Changye's post) anyone correct me if there's anything wrong here:

세무조사 = 稅務調査=Tax audit

위하다= to respect (am I right?) = from 爲

시계(時計)=clock

선물(先物)=futures; as in future contract

의혹(疑惑) suspicion;doubt;distrust

태광=no idea(help!)


실업(失業) unemployment
or
실업(實業) industry

회장(會長) the president 《of a society》;the chairman 《of a committee, an assembly》

년(年)=year

수십(數十) several tens;scores;dozens

개(個·介·箇)  a piece;a unit;an item

구입(購入) purchase;buying;procurement

동아일보=Dong-A Daily News
    - 동아(東亞) East Asia
    - 일보(日報) a daily (newspaper)

일(日) -day

보도(報道) news;a report;information;intelligence ―하다 report;inform[notify] 《a person》

신문(新聞) a newspaper;a paper;

건(件) a case;a subject;a matter;an affair;

기록(記錄) a record;

년간(年間)  during a certain period

흔적(痕跡/痕迹) marks;traces;vestiges;a track;signs;indications;evidences

자료(資料) material;data

출입(出入) coming and going;going in and out;entrance and exit ―하다 go[come] in and out;enter and leave;frequent

한 ＝no idea

명품(名品) luxury goods

전문점(專門店) a specialty store

사장(死藏) dead storage;hoarding- 하다 hoard;keep in dead storage;keep 《a thing》 idle

검찰(檢察) examination;investigation and prosecution

국세청(國稅廳) the National Tax Service

제출(提出) presentation;submission;proposition;introduction

내용(內容) contents;substance;(subject) matter

개인적(個人的) - individual's

성격(性格) character;personality

지인(知人) an acquaintance;a friend

주(主) the main[chief] part;the principal part

전화(電話) a telephone;a phone

직접(直接) immediateness;direct contact

부탁(付託) asking;a request;a favor;solicitation;entreaty

직원(職員) the staff《총칭》;the personnel;the faculty(대학 따위의);

경우(境遇) 【형편】circumstances;a situation;【사례】a case;an instance;【때】anoccasion;a time;a moment

Don't thank me...thank hanja.naver.com

Changye,

in the west, "big words" are usually literally big, i.e. they consist of many letters. Maybe, Koreans should just import some of ours...

I wonder if there are German word imports in Korean. I heard they cloned the fundamental German laws (BGB, HGB). This is why law departments in German Universities are populated by a surprisingly large portion by Korean students.

North Korea abandoned using Chinese characters soon after the war. South Korea gradually banished Chinese characters in the past several decades, and you can hardly see Chinese characters in books and newspapaers in modern Korean society. Eliminating Chinese characters meant complete independence from China and Japan for Korean people.

The problem is that Korean language is full Chinese words mainly made in China and Japan, which generates tons of homonyms in Korean. I hear that Chinese words accout for more than 50% of words listed in large Korean dictionaies. Below is an article from a Korean newspaper, and red colored words are Chinese words.

‘세무조사 무마를 위해 여러 곳에 시계를 선물했다’는 의혹을 받고 있는 박연차 태광실업 회장은 5년 동안 수십 개의 시계를 구입했던 것으로 드러났다고 동아일보가 2일 보도했다.
이 신문에 따르면 박 회장은 지난해 7~8건의 시계 구입 기록을 남겼고, 지난 5년간은 이 같은 시계 구입 흔적을 보였다. 이 자료는 박 회장이 10년 가까이 단골로 출입했던 부산의 한 명품시계전문점 사장 정모(53)씨가 검찰 조사를 받으며 국세청과 검찰에 제출한 내용이라는 것.정씨는 “박 회장은 통이 큰 데다 개인적으로 시계를 무척 좋아하는 성격이라 지인에게도 주로 시계를 선물하는 것 같았다”, “박회장이 시계를 구입할 때는 나에게 전화로 직접 부탁한 뒤 직원이 와서 가져가는 경우도 있었다”라고 이 신문에 말했다.

I hear that disuse of Chinese characters has caused the following (slight) change in linguistic habits in Korean society.

(1) People tend to avoid using big words both in conversation and in writings because it's not easy to guess the meanings of unfamiliar Chinese words.

(2) Some scholars have been trying to promote new words, which are invented based on indigenous Korean words, instead of using Chinese words. But these attemps have not been successful so far due to their "redundancy". These new words are too "explanatory" and long.

If Chinese people abandoned using Chinese characters, the change (1) might happen first.

I wonder if that's why Korea and Japan still use chinese characters, to solve the homophone problem?

Maybe some Korean poddies would give us an answer about this topic.

irrelevant question (lol!)   sorry--i'm not here to attempt an answer to your very interesting question.  我是个光看而不贡献的顾客  再来吧

what a nightmare of a what if you bring up though!  the end of the world, if you ask me.