Youtube is blocked in China

I read some time ago in a german newspaper an interview with students in beijing. One of them said they use a software called anonymouse to avoid censorship

Interesting post, Youku, Chinese alternative of youtube, will get more market share.

I told Matt Mullenweg, founder of Wordpress, I switched from Wordpress to blogger. "Ah no. Yes Wordpress is blocked in China."

Do you other sites that are blocked in China ? How do web entrepreneurs handle this situation if there is a risk their business is blocked ?

Yes, thx. all, must be "local" ;-). 

Hi chanelle77

I hope it's "a local problem". I have no problem with Google now here in northeast China. Actually, Google had been frequently blocked until several years ago, but not so often nowadays. Maybe the CCP has become wise/matured in "a lot of ways".

Hi chanelle77

Google is fine here. Good luck!

I'm afraid that even google is blocked now. Anyone else in China experiencing this?

You are a 'lucky dog' miantiao, (either that or you study really hard to be such a 中国通!) I reckon it's possible you experienced one of the great firewall's occasional glitches.

Very occasionally I have got a result when clicking on links to sites that I knew to be blocked, then a few minues later, I would find the same web address no longer available (unless using a proxy like chanelle77's link). Friends have mentioned similar experiences.

As changye noted, those still in search of outrage can get a peek here.

reigau and changye,

it must have been a very small window of time. i saw calkins post, wanted to show my gf but by the time she got home, 10 minutes after i watched it,  was unable to play it again. either they are very quick, or i'm just lucky.

哈哈！肯定是好笑的词语啊！好，还是现在呼吸吧！

Hi reigau

我头一次碰到“屏息”这个词语，ありがとう（谢谢你）。我根本就不知道这次封锁措施会持续到什么时候。中国当局真是太任性了，叫人无法猜测。这样继续“屏息”下去的话，我快要憋死了！

changye こんにちは!

你说的对，可是用英文也许可以说：别屏息！;-)

Hi reigau

我这里也还不行。我白高兴了一场，哈哈。大家耐心等着吧。

miantiao must have good guānxi! As far as I can tell, youtube is still blocked for everyone else in China!

Oh and it was not my intention to compare "our pampered existence" [in the west?] to those unfortunates who still suffer from mankind's seemingly innate capacity to treat other people like property and use them for profit.

Whoops. Sorry for misinterpreting that point. I mentioned the modern slave trade in Africa and the Middle East. I forgot to mention Eastern Europe as well, and I didn't know that you were referencing that.

miantiao, don't shoot the messenger!

calkins, just saw the video.

i'm not going to comment. i'm too angry.

嘿嘿嘿，youtube is now unblocked.

Yep, it was a great post pete, thanks for getting my drift.

"Two wrongs don't make a right"? Trite but true, but I was never trying to 'make a right', I don't think jc would allow me that.

Oh and it was not my intention to compare "our pampered existence" [in the west?] to those unfortunates who still suffer from mankind's seemingly innate capacity to treat other people like property and use them for profit. My basic point now is that trumpeting 'Enlightenment Values' and failing to either see how such values came to be, or understanding that they are in fact a fragile, subjective paradigm, is naive.

pete, you do make a good point about the historical narrative. The Great Leap Forward was clearly a bad idea. Would you agree that just about any modern nation state that you care to name is similarly 'blinkered' about episodes in its history, and that there are true stories of governmental 'criminal incompetence and ruthlessness' (concerning the US for example) that are rarely or never told?

Yep,great post Pete.Thanks reigau and jckeith for a very enlightening and entertaining debate.I hope we continue to get more such interesting debates.Ah,the beauty of freedom of speech.

Great post, Pete. As an addendum, I will note that the human rights record of the United States (my country) is also available from the sources that I listed, and it is indeed very sad.

Anyways, why the heck am I writing so much English?! I need to get back to my studies! 再见！

Cheers for the spirited debate, reigau et al.

I think jckeith and reigau's opinions have more common points than differences. Both are opponents of brainwashing and censorship. Jckeith's point, as I understand it, is that two wrongs don't make a right. Criticism of wrongs is the only way to start to cure them.

reigau takes the position that such criticism is largely pointless and that anyway, all governments have engaged in atrocities and abuses. No one should feel that they have the right to criticize, as we are all hypocrites to a degree.

The Chinese government has indeed horribly mistreated its own people. The example I keep coming back to is the Great Leap Forward and the famines, depradation and agony that claimed 36 million lives. The reason this is worth talking about today is that many victims are still alive, and the government has never publicly acknowledged its criminal incompetence and ruthlessness.

Compare this to Helmut Kohl acknowledging Germany's war crimes, or the Taiwanese dedicating a 2-28 Peace Park, to name just a few examples.

It all comes down to: Who controls the historical narrative? We can squirm and laugh at Mel Brooks' "Springtime for Hitler" because the Holocaust has been extensively analyzed and apologized for.

But in China, the dominant narrative is written by an unrepentant state. There is no domestic Anti-Defamation League to protect the rights of the millions who have suffered here. International NGOs and media are trying to tell their side of the story, using the facts available to them. To a large degree it is like howling into the void.

So I can understand reigau's frustration with foreign spectators and critics. But I also admire jckeith's insistence on bringing crimes and abuses to light, no matter where they occur. If and only if their arguments are backed with factual evidence, they should make them as forcefully as possible.

While that is indeed humorous, it has no bearing on what I've said. Since you seem unable to let this point go, I will say that my position on human rights is entirely consistent; I fully acknowledge the countless atrocities committed by all governments throughtout history, not just Western ones or Chinese ones.

Not that it matters; hypocrisy is not a logical fallacy, but accusing someone of hypocrisy in order to disprove their argument is. Attempting to dismiss an actor's bad behavior by pointing to instances of other actors behaving badly is as well.

If we were to follow your logic to its logical conclusion, the U.S. invasion of Iraq was entirely justified because many countries with attrocious human rights records criticized it.

In that case folks don't miss and you are lynching negroes from jc's link.

"And in the area of ballet, we are ahead of the whole planet!"

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

My observation on the gulf that exists between the western view of Tibet and its history and the Chinese one was simply that: an observation. I have come to think that most westerners that feel qualified to pronounce on this issue have little knowledge of it; they read a few articles in the western press, or watch a documentary on TV and think they know it all, and are then inspired to demonise China. Instead they should at least talk to a few Chinese people about it, (they can do this online perhaps if they are concerned enough about it.) I suggest that after doing so, they may not be so certain of their case.

The human rights record of China is well-documented in more than just a few articles or documentaries. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and even the U.N.'s worthless Human Rights Council all possess a wealth of information on the subject.

However how do you get away from the simple undeniable fact, that for western governments or citizens to self-righteously condemn China re. Tibet, is just a rather huge example of the pot calling the kettle black? Those Enlightenment values you're so proud of were built on the slave trade, and the western exploitation of the rest of the world. Thomas Jefferson kept slaves didn't he? All those honorable men who signed the Declaration of Independence did.

So, as I said you are engaging in the tu quoque fallacy.

Every westerner is to some extent a living beneficiary of the way western powers exploited the rest of the world, and in addition we're all, every one of us, the descendants of those who displaced other human groups and/or civilizations.

This is true not just of westerners, but pretty much every living human being. Not particularly relevant or useful.

Slavery is alive and well in most of the world I would say by the way, it's just been rebranded, and that's another way that homo sapiens does things, we see what we want to see, always and everywhere.

This is just nonsense. Actual slavery is still ongoing in parts of Africa and the Middle East. Comparing our pampered existance to it is completely ridiculous.

Hi rigau

Thanks for the link to the video and the BBC news article China says Tibet video is "a lie". I believe that the last people who don't believe the video would be Chinese themselves in the PRC. They know well how brutal their policemen/soldiers are.

I'm not in the business of 'trotting out excuses' old sport. I feel I am not qualified or able to comment on human rights 'abuses by foreign governments'. (I am painfully aware though of the countless abuses of human rights committed by western governments. A long long history of that, and it's still continuing to this very day.)

My observation on the gulf that exists between the western view of Tibet and its history and the Chinese one was simply that: an observation. I have come to think that most westerners that feel qualified to pronounce on this issue have little knowledge of it; they read a few articles in the western press, or watch a documentary on TV and think they know it all, and are then inspired to demonise China. Instead they should at least talk to a few Chinese people about it, (they can do this online perhaps if they are concerned enough about it.) I suggest that after doing so, they may not be so certain of their case.

I'm not denying for a moment that that the Chinese populace are to a large extent brainwashed by the 'powers that be' here on this and many other issues. However how do you get away from the simple undeniable fact, that for western governments or citizens to self-righteously condemn China re. Tibet, is just a rather huge example of the pot calling the kettle black? Those Enlightenment values you're so proud of were built on the slave trade, and the western exploitation of the rest of the world. Thomas Jefferson kept slaves didn't he? All those honorable men who signed the Declaration of Independence did.

Every westerner is to some extent a living beneficiary of the way western powers exploited the rest of the world, and in addition we're all, every one of us, the descendants of those who displaced other human groups and/or civilizations.

Slavery is alive and well in most of the world I would say by the way, it's just been rebranded, and that's another way that homo sapiens does things, we see what we want to see, always and everywhere.

If you're suggesting that I, or any other 老外 living here in China should be jumping up and down about Tibet or that video, then I refer you to brother miantiao's reference to incarceration and death!

Nope. If I were in China I would keep mum about politics as well.

Western people viewing the scene here from abroad can have no conception of the gulf which exists between the western idea of Tibet (and its history) and the Chinese one, and the high feelings which run in many Chinese at the perceived Western bias about how China deals with Tibet.

Sorry, that's the same excuse that always gets trotted out to justify abuses by foreign governments. Nothing can justify the atrocities that have been perpetrated, not just in Tibet, but in all of China.

And in any case, this kind of thing has been going on throughout human history for always, and probably always will, from the displacement and extinction of the Neanderthals to the 'Manifest Destiny' of North America's white invaders, human groups have endlessly marginalised and displaced other human groups. It is part of the nature of our species, and if you find it unpalatable it's just too bad, but you might as well rage against the phases of the moon.

Not buying it. You can see how far Enlightenment ideals have taken us since the days of colonialism, slavery, perpetual warfare, and Manifest Destiny. Slavery was part of the default human condition for thousands of years, but it's now just a distant memory in most parts of the world. If people had just resigned themselves to the fact that slavery was as natural as the phases of the moon, this would not be true.

@jckeith

I don't believe that I'm engaging in any kind of fallacy. (Hmm... there's a word with potential to spawn an awful pun or two.)

Because I am not in fact trying to either justify/defend the actions of either the US or the Chinese government, or the opposite, which would be your 'speaking out against injustice' thing, right?

I was for the purposes of argument simply trying to suggest that it's silly for the Chinese government to waste time and energy banning websites, which as others have suggested is just like 'shooting yourself in the foot'. Far better to do it the US way. Just be brazen from the word go. Just go with the attitude of: we're gonna do this, here are our reasons, we don't much care what you think of them, and this is how it's gonna be, so say we all. And doing it this way, the massive inertia of people living safe lives far away soon clicks in.

If you're suggesting that I, or any other 老外 living here in China should be jumping up and down about Tibet or that video, then I refer you to brother miantiao's reference to incarceration and death!

When I first came to China I did occasionally try to discuss this issue (but only with Chinese people who had become my friends and who I judged could talk about it dispassionately.) But I soon found that you have to be very careful with this issue. Western people viewing the scene here from abroad can have no conception of the gulf which exists between the western idea of Tibet (and its history) and the Chinese one, and the high feelings which run in many Chinese at the perceived Western bias about how China deals with Tibet.

These days I will (honestly) admit to Chinese friends that I do not fully understand this history, and thus will ascend no soapbox and will not point any judgemental finger at China.

And in any case, this kind of thing has been going on throughout human history for always, and probably always will, from the displacement and extinction of the Neanderthals to the 'Manifest Destiny' of North America's white invaders, human groups have endlessly marginalised and displaced other human groups. It is part of the nature of our species, and if you find it unpalatable it's just too bad, but you might as well rage against the phases of the moon.

lovvue

there is no need for direct communication as u suggest.

i'm sure the crawling creatures who monitor this site are quite efficient.

public health warning: speaking out against injustice in some parts of the world may cause incarceration or death.

or in the case of the parents of children that died at the hands of corrupt officials during the earthquake, you may be offered a paltry sum and a veiled threat to keep your mouth shut.

i wonder how the fat bastard officials responsible for the shoddy construction of schools for poorer children, and  now driving around town in their new BMWs, feel?

What problem? What problem? Well presumably the Chinese government's image problem.

I think we're on the same page here, although the Chinese government's problem rises far beyond image.

You see where I'm going?

I'm not sure. You seem to be engaging in the tu quoque fallacy. Either the Chinese government's actions are moral, or they're not; the actions of other goverments are irrelevant.

Either that or you're saying that speaking out against injustice is futile. I disagree, but I won't belabor the point. Apologies if I've misinterpreted you.

@ jckeith

What problem? What problem? Well presumably the Chinese government's image problem.

In the second paragraph you quote my meaning was basically that the US (establishment) openly invaded Iraq in defiance of huge opposition from the public and they basically didn't care what anyone thought about it. They still don't. If you had the chance to ask Cheney or Rumsfeld or any of those a**holes what they thought about it now, they'd tell you it was a good thing, was necessary, blah blah blah. And time passes. And people basically don't care about that issue as much any more do they. You see where I'm going?

You guys please call the central government, tell them what you need. Sometimes they are afraid of foreigners. The more person do this, the better result.

Hi kimiik

The CCP is more coward than you might think.
中共领导人的胆子比你想象的小得多。

Seriously, I don't think that Youtube is unavailable in China because of this little video in english.

Well as noted there's nothing really new in this game of claim and counter claim, but I have to agree that banning sites is surely not the wisest (or even most effective way) for the Chinese government to deal with this problem.

What problem?

Anyone with half a brain knows for example that the US led invasion of Iraq was unjustified, probably illegal, and definitely not done for altruistic reasons, yet now, several years down the road, what difference does it make to anyone except historians? China's totalitarian regime can still learn a trick or two from the 'paper tiger' imho.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this. What exactly do you mean?

Posting anything interesting or relevant to this subject feels risky and makes one hesitate, and a probably not so irrational fear that BBC News will be the next web based media source to be 'silenced' made me ponder before highlighting this story.

Well as noted there's nothing really new in this game of claim and counter claim, but I have to agree that banning sites is surely not the wisest (or even most effective way) for the Chinese government to deal with this problem. Anyone with half a brain knows for example that the US led invasion of Iraq was unjustified, probably illegal, and definitely not done for altruistic reasons, yet now, several years down the road, what difference does it make to anyone except historians? China's totalitarian regime can still learn a trick or two from the 'paper tiger' imho.

Oh meanwhile, perhaps yet another example of 'talking pygmy to a dwarf'...

Calkins, didn't look as bad as Rodney King and the LAPD.  If this hadn't happened, I never would have bothered looking at the video.  I wonder if anybody ever told the PRC of the Streisand effect.  Is there an equivalent term in Chinese?

Authoritarian regimes have a knack for  counterproductive behavior. It was the Czech government's banning of rock and roll which sparked the Velvet Revolution.

Personally,the action of the blocking youtube is the right choice the government of china .Previously,I saw lots of viedos about violence and .....

Seriously, I don't think that Youtube is unavailable in China because of this little video in english.

Btw, showing the dead body left to the vultures and eaten by them with a narrative voice saying that it's part of the tibetan culture would be the "Gruesome" part. Even in India, this old tradition is generally banned for obvious hygienic reasons.

I agree Tvan...the Rodney King beating was just brutal.  I didn't think the above was that violent or disturbing (comparitively)....but those wounds are what got me.  I definitely couldn't be a surgeon!

I also agree about the Streisand effect...the Chinese government has a knack for shooting itself in the foot.

Calkins, didn't look as bad as Rodney King and the LAPD.  If this hadn't happened, I never would have bothered looking at the video.  I wonder if anybody ever told the PRC of the Streisand effect.  Is there an equivalent term in Chinese?

Haha, you're most welcome: I hope it works, I get some flash player error when I try vids, but at least I can access blocked sites.

chanelle, cheers for that. about the dogs, well, i could never knowingly eat a dog, but i do like to provoke emotional resonses in others ;-)

This is not a prefect solution, but you can see sites that are blocked i.e. youtube. At least it worked for me. It does not display cpod's site very well, but I could get to youtube via this site. It is in Dutch, but I think you can figure out where to type the url ;-).

ps I did not check this vid so do not know if it works. I am afraid it has dogs in it ;-)

sorry rj, but what's a proxy? nevermind, i'm a tech illiterate. even if you explained it to me it would just 左耳进右耳出， 呵呵

there are proxys that you can use but I dont remember what they are called. Never needed them, but I have seen them used in China.

Hey miantiao, I'm not sure how you could do that.  But I do remember a post a while back, by an expat in China, who uses some kind of downloaded software to view banned sites.

I can't remember what it is, but maybe some other users could help.  Anyone know?

can't see it calkins!

is it possible to get access to youtube via another means, like re-route through a series of servers or something like that? a site that gives access to youtube that the great wall doesn't detect?

i'd really like to see the vid.

I hesitate to post this...one, because of the sensitivity of the situation and two, because it is very gruesome. 

Do not watch this if you are the least bit squeamish.  Seriously.  I am usually not squeamish at all, but after the part that says "Gruesome", it was not easy to watch.

This is the video that caused the Chinese government to block Youtube.  The Chinese government claims that wounds seen in this video are faked, and that the events were pieced together. Well, of course they're pieced together, that's what happens when the government doesn't allow outside media into Tibet.

I'm no doctor (or makeup artist), but those wounds look pretty real to me.  As do the battons, the kicks, the dragging, etc.   It's all overly excessive, no doubt about that.

There may be some doubt to the location and/or timeframe to these events, but it's nothing we haven't seen before.

Please note, I'm not passing judgement on Chinese people, only on the government. Obviously, I don't agree with censorship (and I certainly don't agree with this kind of brutality), so I feel compelled to "share" this.  One of the greatest reasons for having media, is to spread images like these to the rest of the world, so that hopefully a positive change will come about.

Again, this video is disturbing.

Hi miantiao

What the student said is, good or bad, very right. Probably that's the most persuasive (and plausible) excuse reason why the CCP never realizes democracy and freedom of speech in the PRC. After all, satisfied pigs are much happier than dissatisfied Socrates. The problem is that most people, me included, can become neither the former nor the latter, unfortunately, hehe.

i had a student say something very interesting to me the other day.

if china had democracy and freedom of speech his country would fall into a civil war and separate into what he described as something similar to the three kingdoms period.

he kept referring to 蜀国。

I hope Google doesn't cave.  Last time YouTube was blocked was because they had the nerve to set up a YouTube "Taiwan" site.  However that only lasted a few months.

Hi rigau

Just "enjoy" observing stark realities in China. I didn't realize the importance of freedom (and water) until I came to China several years ago. What you take for granted in your country often doesn't exist here in the PRC. Thankfully, living in an autocratic state (tentatively) makes your home country look better than it really is, hehe.

Hi reigau

The Bamboo Curtain is a fickle barrier. Youtube has been blocked before, and I am sure it will be back again.

This time, the cause is supposed to be videos of the beating of a monk last March.

There may be other causes. I have read speculation that the CCP is keen on boosting domestic video cites like Youku at the expense of Google's Youtube.

Whatever the reason, these shenanigans do not give the image of a confident or modern state.