Traditional Character for lǐ ： 裡 or 裏 ?

changye 你早，

嘻，那么多"马"字！看得很愉快，谢谢。  some of the oracle ones look like something you might find a 中药师 (so that's why they're called sea horses!) or 干货店 (dried shrimp?) selling by the 斤, the bronze ones like fishbones.  and the seal L17142 is a rear view isn't it？ wow 很少见的。 such artistic, earnest attempts all.  我都动心了。

P/S.

Enjoy seeing a lot of 马 characters. I know you're a 火马 lady, hehe.

http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E9%A9%AC&submitButton1=Etymology

Hi zhenlijiang

I forgot to mention the most important thing.

島 is a simplified form of (山 + 鳥) type characters. 说文解字 (100 A.D.) only lists a character "鳥 (upper) + 山 (lower)", which means it was the most authentic character two thousand years ago.

Furthermore, 鳥 was used in the sense of 島 in earlier times. In short, the very original character of modern 島 is, a bit surprisingly, "鳥". In ancient times, 鳥 was pronounced as "dou"/"diao".

thank you changye!

my god, those photocopied strips from all the dictionaries!  what an amazing resource. i wish i could read better.

the variant "arrangements" of components in the character are so interesting.  the ones putting the bird on the mountain do make more logical sense than 嶌.

at first 峯 too seems to represent better the concept of the peak than "sidelining" the mountain radical, but i guess by "shrinking" the radical and putting it to the side, in a way you allow more information to be included more easily in the character.  those are easier to write anyway, than characters with numerous vertical stacks.

btw 嶋 and 嶌 i've only come across in Japanese surnames.  峯 as well.

Hi zhenlijiang

I've found that 嶋 is listed as a variant form of 島 in 康熙字典, but 嶌 is not. Interestingly, another variant (the 山 radical is located below 鳥) is listed in both 康熙字典 and 学研漢和大辞典. It seems 嶌 is a rather informal character. Anyway, they are not Japanese 国字.

For the record, there are a lot of variant forms for the character 島. You can see them in the following webpage.

http://140.111.1.40/yitia/fra/fra01120.htm

As for 峰 and 峯, the latter is regarded as a variant form of 峰 today, but the invention of 峯 precedes that of 峰 according to the dictionary I mentioned above. Furthermore, 康熙字典 treats 峯 as 正字, and 峰 as 异体字. Here are some 峰 characters in seal style (篆体).

http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%B3%B0&submitButton1=Etymology

hi changye

do you know what the story is with these characters? 

嶋／嶌　 (denoting a mountain in the sea where migrating birds rest, 異体字 of 島 - island)   these characters are only in Japanese, not Chinese, i guess?

峰／峯   (pointed mountain peak) 

hanzi/kanji are endlessly fascinating.

In ancient China, an alignment of semantic/phonetic parts of a Chinese character tended to be rather flexible, especially in oracle bone scripts (甲骨文) and bronze inscriptions (金文). In other words, it usually didn't make difference in meaning whether a semantic/phonetic part is located in the left side or right side (upper or lower) of a character.

Probably this is one of the reasons there are variant forms 裡 and 裏. Let me show you other examples. The character 锦 had a variant character, where the semantic part 帛 is located on the left side of the character. A variant form of 词 has the semantic part 言 located below 司, which I think is not so beautiful from the standpoint of calligraphy, hehe.

Hi Changye,

Thank you very much for your explaining!

I have a meaningful lesson !

I really made a stupid mistake about  the number of形声字.

About the two words,my teacher has taught us that they are 异体字，but we did't have enough evidence to figure out the time  of their existence.Today I know more about it,thanks again.

My poor English may seem to be impertinent,hehe,sorry.

Hi sagera

The number of 形声字, including so-called 形声兼会意字, accounts for more than 90% of total Chinese characters, which is the reason why I said that most Chinese characters have a phonetic part (声符). And therefore, it's not appropriate to say that there is no relationship between forms/shapes of Chinese characters and their pronunciations. They are roughly related to each other.

I have a small dictionary titled "常用字字源字典"(语文出版社) published in China. According to the author, the character 裡 was newly invented in 近代. As you know, the term 近代 in Chinese historical science generally indicates the period between Opium War (鸦片战争, 1840) and May Fourth Movement (五四运动, 1919). Anyway, 裡 is "a new comer", which was made several hundred years ago, perhaps.

For the record, "裡" is not listed in major Chinese ancient dictionaries/rhyme books, such as 说文解字 (100 A.D.), 大宋重修广韵 (1008), and 康熙字典 (1716). So it may be said, at least, that 裡 was not an authentic character in those days. Having said that, it doesn't automatically mean that 裡 didn't exist before 近代. I think it's possible that some people used it as a dialect/variant character in ancient times, as is often the case.

As for readings of Japanese Kanji, they are mainly originated not only in 六朝时代 (the 3rd - 6th century), but also in 唐朝 (618-907). Let me take "日" as an example. The character has three readings in Japanese, namely (A) ni-chi, (B) ji-tsu, and (C) hi. Among them, (A) is based on the pronunciation used in 六朝时代, (B) is 唐朝, and (C) is a sound Japanese people newly bestowed to the character. Almost all the kanji are 多音字. 

jins 你好！

    个人敏感和大陆教育的成功好像没什么关系吧……这个不是重点

    关于繁体字和简化字，我个人觉得比较喜欢繁体字，对于理解汉语，传承文化都很有意义。简体字也有它的好处，就是比较省时省力，很方便，但是从理据上说就少了些东西。

Hello Changye,

You are quite right about the phonetic part thoery.Words like 裏 and 裡 we call them 形声字（words we can figure its meaning and pronunciation from clues of its shap）.But those words are not the most in the whole vocabulary.

    I live in mainland of China and we don't use 裏 now,we only use 里 to  instead others. The difference of裏and裡,I learned , is the different writing of peolpe ,as I've said.We call these words(裏and裡) 异体字（words with same meaning and same pronunciation but different shaps），when the society were seperated,it's naturally to have some different ways to write.For example,before Qin dynasty(BC221),there were 6 countries and they have different words shape,the difference between those words are mostly  like 裏and裡.

    I didn't check more data, I don't know whether you are right about the time of creation of 裏and裡.I will try to find some  evidence of this parlance.

    In Japanese ,there are many Chinese characters .The affact of Chinese to Japnese started about AD300-400,and the words and pronounciation Japan inport are mostly from south of China.AD300-400 is a convulsion period in China's history.So I think Japanese  has 裏and裡 are accessible.When it comes to Tai Wan and Hongkong,they are different from Japan,you know,  the difference between mainland writing and them started much much later.

The process maybe is

1 Chinese have 裏and裡 to present the same word

2 AD300-400 Japan absorb the two shapes

3 Chinese usually use 裡, but 裏is available

4 1897 Hongkong trapped by Braintain, people there got used to 裡

5  1945 Tai wan and mainland are obstruct,people in Tai wan have the habit of using 裡

6  around 1955,mainland of China creat the simplified character 里

Hi sagela

Most Chinese characters have a phonetic part (声符), which (roughly) represents a sound of a character, just like 里 in 裏 and 裡. And this it the reason these three characters have the same sound despite the difference in shape, although characters that have the same 声符 don't always have the same reading, of course.

I hear that a traditional form 裏 is mainly used in the PRC, and 裡 in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Confusingly, both 裏 and 裡 are used in Japan. I don't know why 裡 was newly made a few hundred years ago, but I suppose it's possible that 裡 was a dialect character made in southern regions in China. Just a wild guess.

       裏and裡are all traditional words in Chinese.The simplified word of them is 里。Now,mainland of China use里,and people from other place whose motherlanguage is Chinese use 裏or裡.Why?As we all known,mainland of China has language revolution before,simplified words are created to instead their complified writing.But not all words are changed.

      About the meaning,I want to say,Chinese are different from other language.The words writing and their pronunciation have no relationship.So even the writing style changed, the pronunciation and the meaning won't.

     裏and裡 have the same meaning and pronunciation,then why Chinese people creat two word to present it?The reason is that in acient China,Chinese has many ways to write.For example ,people from different area of China or people from different level of Chinese cociety,they may have different handwriting style.Of course most of the words are not totally different,they more or less have the same features.

     The first time of ancient China to consolidate the writing of Chinese is more than 2000 years ago.The first king of China --Qin shi huang did it.You guys are familiar with this King,beacuse he let his people creat the Great Wall.

       裏and裡are all traditional words in Chinese.The simplified word of them is 里。Now,mainland of China use里,and people from other place whose motherlanguage is Chinese use 裏or裡.Why?As we all known,mainland of China has language revolution before,simplified words are created to instead their complified writing.But not all words are changed.

      About the meaning,I want to say,Chinese are different from other language.The words writing and their pronunciation have no relationship.So even the writing style changed, the pronunciation and the meaning won't.

     裏and裡 have the same meaning and pronunciation,then why Chinese people creat two word to present it?The reason is that in acient China,Chinese has many ways to write.For example ,people from different area of China or people from different level of Chinese cociety,they may have different handwriting style.Of course most of the words are not totally different,they more or less have the same features.

     The first time of ancient China to consolidate the writing of Chinese is more than 2000 years ago.The first king of China --Qin shi huang did it.You guys are familiar with this King,beacuse he let his people creat the Great Wall.

感覺簡體字少了些味道。

shane0918，這裏只是討論漢語的一些問題，幹嗎要扯到政治上面去呢？

你太敏感了，足見大陸教育之成功。

Hey,zhenlijiang,thank you very much for you tell me about the exclamation marks,and very helpful to me,and please don't think I am a bad-tempered girl.I am glad to listen you pointed out that the error I made.我觉得我好像这么几句话我又有一大堆语法错误呢```

And,

"The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this." is not you.-_-\\\ I am very very sorry for that,It's said by mko098uhb.It seems that I am a really careless girl..T-T...I will never do things like that again...

And,zhenlijiang,I think your chinese is very  excellent!You are not a Chinese,but you can understand the Chinese I write well.and most people here,their Chinese very good!I am adore all of you.Because I think people who speak other language to learn Chinese is very difficulty,Sometimes Chinese also hard for some Chinese people.So I should learn from you,I will learn English harder and harder like you learn Chinese!Thank you again,about exclamation marks,I am study the formal writing now,our foreign teacter say It's very important part of this term exam.I think It's very difficult.1 year later I will go to England finish my University Study.So,I must good at English like you good at Chinese!

So,we learn harder together~help each other~^_^

Thank you...HAHA

shane0918,

"The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this."

was not me. (^^)

i'm sorry if i embarrassed you, and understand you were writing in a language that's not easy for you like Chinese is not easy for me (so i guess you can tell, i am not Taiwanese).

there's no need to apologize like that. especially no need to apologize for writing in Chinese here, as this is a place to learn 中文.  i should apologize for not trying to reply in Chinese.  

for the future, just let me say (please don't be embarrassed),  when you use a lot of exclamation marks !!! together with ALL CAPITAL letters you may be misunderstood because it can look like you're shouting at someone. 

and i'm glad to hear that my original post to you hasn't discouraged you from coming back here and helping us all with our Chinese.   cheers  88

呃```

好象被误解了呢```

看来我的英语表达能力实在是差的有点厉害```

其实呢,我也没能力当Teacher啦,其实都算不上是teach

就是进来说了我知道的,希望能够帮助他们``

啊```至于 礼貌 和 宽容

其实,我真的没有对谁不礼貌呢T-T

只是我以为 那位zhenlijiang朋友是台湾同胞```

然后只是他的那句"The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this."让我不太同意,其实我个人也觉得内地的教育体制有很多问题,可是我认为不能偏激的就说所有错误都是它引起的,其实我上面的意思是简体字比较好写,因为笔画少,我的确是没别的意思呢```即使我的确错了,仅仅只能代表我个人的想法呢,从小学到现在大学学校的确是没有教过我们说繁体字不好呢```所以```我只是想告诉zhenlijiang朋友我的想法```

被认为不礼貌了 ```啊``` 很抱歉```

不过要谢谢帮我指出我的错误哦```真是脸红```那天是第一天来这网站,所以不知道原来大家都知道简体繁体的说法,怪自己不仔细,啊``那个TAILAND也不知道当时我抽什么风呢``想哪去了```呃```实在是不好意思,谢谢zhenlijiang的改正!这也是我也想通过帮助外国朋友学中文然后同时自己也能提高英语的原因```

所以大家也谅解一下我这个英语不好的人在这里写了这么多中文吧,最近学习比较忙,希望以后还能经常来这里和中外朋友们互相帮助!! 可不要再被讨厌了呢```5 `

Good night~~

我通知大陸人偏愛用“裏”。福建人在這裡也用“裏”。

但香港人和台灣人都偏愛“裡”。

Dunno about 澳門人 though.

Hi shane0918

You have to agree to disagree, both politically and culturally, when you teach your mother tongue to foreign learners. It takes patience and tolerance to be a good teacher. Good luck.

shane0918, just look around this site. everybody here knows 简体字 and  繁体字. in English we say "simplified" and "traditional".  please don't be upset, nobody is arguing with you about anything.   it was just confusing because you wrote Thailand 泰国 when you meant Taiwan 台湾.

I have said,my English is very weak.Maybe the way I write make you misunderstand.But I have checked my sentens above,I think nowadays the resident of China mainland  use the "Simplified Chinese"and most Taiwan people use the"Traditional Chinese"is the turth.I just told the turth.if that "simple word" and "difficult word" make you disunderstand,I am sorry for my unprofessional word-making,so I check my dictionary and use the right word this time. And,I just mean, "Simplified Chinese" has less strokes,easy to write,I think it is obviously.Isn't mean I think the "Traditional Chinese" is not good.Maybe you don't think so?It's up to you.

But.PLEASE DON'T DENIED the education of others CASUALLY!    请不要随随便便的否认别人所受的教育!!    the education I have had,told me the the resident of China mainland and the Taiwan people are both CHINESE!Please,we are here for help the foreign people who wants to learn the really Chinese,don't argue  the relationship between the China and Taiwan.I think it is ridiculous to argue with the compatriots in Taiwan on the website like this.It is like a joke.

shane0918 wrote: "... most Thailand people...".

You mean Taiwan people, or?

Why do you think that "裏" or "裡" are difficult or complicated?

The only reason is that the education in the PRC makes you thinking this.

中国大部分都用简体字 台湾用繁体字

Long time ago,All the chinese use the "difficult words"like "裏"or"裡",Nowadays,Chinese almost use the"simple word",it is"里"it is less strokes,easy to write and standard.But the most Thailand people still use the"difficult word"now.But the meaning is same."inside"Just different in writing.

My English is very weak,but Chinese just fine.

P.S the"simple words"and"difficult words"isn't standard translation,just I made it help you easy to understand.HAHA

Hi calkins

As far as I know, both 裏 and 裡 have the same meaning in modern Mandarin. The original meaning of 裏 is "lining of clothes" according to 说文解字 (100A.D., 裏 衣内也), and the character was later bestowed an extended meaning "inside".

Some say that linings often had lattice pattern in ancient times, and this is the reason the characters 裏/裡 have the part "里" in them. The upper part of 里 indicates "a rice pad". It's plausible, but I think it sounds too plausible to be true, haha.

Sorry, I've been told by a Chinese person that my above sentence is 很奇怪！  Ha ha.

junying, 很有意思。那麽，这些字有同的和不同的意思吗？

裡/裏  ，是一种意思，“里”， 

‘衤’指衣服。

“裡”指用布做成的物品里面。比如：衣服里面。   

“裏”在家里。我把钥匙放在车里面了！

Hi calkins

Here is a copy of my comment on 裏 and 裡.

The character 裏 was invented more than two thousand years ago, on the other hand, 裡 is a relativelyl new character. Probably it was made only a few hundred years ago.

裏 is considered to be a traditional form of 里 in the PRC and used in, for example, 繁体字版 of online newspapers and magazines, but it seems that Taiwan medias primarily use 裡.

I located the posts here and here.  Thanks Tvan and Changye.

Calkins, this question's come up a couple of time in the past week.  Changye (of course) answered it but, since I'm too lazy to find that thread, I'll recap the gist of it.

The meaning's are identical.  The second character, 裏 , is the older of the two, but the first one, 裡 , seems to be more commonly used in print