Shanghai is China (repeat after me)

yeah, I'm learning all this real time. In my prior life, I remember that people would generalize across Asia as well, not just Beijing/Shanghai/Chengdu/Kunming, etc... So for example, "we're selling _____ like crazy in Japan; why aren't we doing so well in China/Australia/Singapore/India/Indonesia/Korea....

Hi pretzel - thanks for your take on this, would be interested to hear views of people who have done it. From my observation rather than direct experience, getting a business established in Shanghai also involves a lot of wining, dining, gifting, back-scratching, sucking up, waiting around, wheedling, conniving, fawning, flattering, preening, and so on, certainly wholly different to what would happen in Australia for example. In one recent case I have observed from a discrete distance the entire board are friends. While I also agree that Shanghai is measurably more 'international', and I caution about extrapolating from a single example, it still has Chinese characteristics.

tvan

That's a very good question .. first, I know some Americans who have been here for a long time, fluent speakers, and building successful businesses. People who have made their lives here. Included in the category 'American' are a couple I know who are ethnic Chinese; maybe it is a little easier for them, although one says his Chinese is 'poor'. As for others, I would name the Koreans (here in large numbers at language schools, many headed for business careers), Mexicans (also in significant numbers), and Africans (various countries). We may be few in number but we have proximity and same time zone in our favour. And as I have posted before, Australians have a large Chinese population (around the same percentage as Indonesia), we should do better. In my city I know more New Zealanders in business here than Australians, no disrespect. There are quite a few Australians working as employees.

Hi RJ

I like your take on this (Rudd is famously difficult to get on with, and he and Raby would be like two old bulls trying to prove they know more than the other on all things China.) But Raby is too smart for this to be only about Rudd, or even particularly about Rudd. He has an important message for Australia and he has been working hard on this for some years. It irritates me beyond belief that Australian business people don't make an effort with either the language or the culture. They usually don't even make an effort to learn how to pronounce a few Chinese names correctly. We are a pretty lazy society; we have to be dragged off our beaches to make a living.

Something I failed to mention is that the story was filed by John Garnaut - in my humble opinion the best foreign journo working in China. Or does he just have an uncanny ability to write things that I agree with? :) His column 'East is Red' appears regularly in two Australian newspapers.

I don't know if Raby speaks Chinese, but he is very sharp. People should read the rest of his speech carefully.

Another analysis of this issue is at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/crusade-for-china-literacy/story-e6frg6ux-1226059888990

Thanks mate - it seems I stirred up a hornet's nest. Just reflecting, it seems to me that this 'Shanghai versus Beijing' thing is more hotly debated by foreigners than it is by locals.

From discussions with Chinese it seems it is not a matter worth debating. It is just accepted that certain decisions are made in Beijing.

"The 'Shanghai' comment obviously sparked debate but maybe this is because the truth hurts."

Hah! Either that or businessmen know more about China than politicians.

hehe, love the title of this post mate..very eyecatching.

Not sure we've seen the last of Kevin. The latest polls have his popularity soaring and Gillards plummeting.

"who actually is the better 中国通"

..hehe, love your comments. Also impressed you have something to say on Aussie politics. When the "great debate" was on telly in the leadup to the last election, it was outrated by Masterchef. As one commenter noted , we were more concerned with whether Sandy's souffle would rise than who would be leading the nation.

Hi @bodawei. I read the article and researched him a little. He's certainly a very accomplished man. However, I found myself questioning a lot of his statements, especially re: "understanding China." It wasn't so much that I disagreed with his statement that learning Chinese is not essential to understand China. Rather, it was his implication that he "understood China." It seemed rather arrogant to me.

Hi ouyangjun, I hear what you are saying; and certainly China is much more centralized than my home country. However, I question whether: one, you need to live in Beijing to know and influence government policy and, two, that the Beijing government is the key to doing business in China.

I started up a small medical equipment business here and, as you can imagine, it is heavily regulated by the Beijing government. However, I don't think being in Beijing would give me any advantage; my (Chinese) partner thinks the same thing. Beijing is pretty hard to influence, especially for a foreigner. (Something tells me that it would take more than a few KTV girls to move national policy.)

Regarding Shanghai, I would say that it has three advantages: First, it is the largest port complex in China located at the mouth of China's largest navigable river. Second, as mentioned above it is a financial center. Third, it is not Beijing.

The big decisions are made in Beijing and they can override the provinces decisions at the end of the day. When the "State Government" (Beijing) issues a new ruling for China, it is required to be rolled out elsewhere. Some provinces may not initially get on board and follow, but look at this scenario:

If you were running a business and you set up your business model on a Province decision that was not in line with the Beijing government, how comfortable would you be with your business model for long term sustainability? Knowing that Beijing can come in anytime and enforce the rule on them your business model could essentially not work and your business would suffer and maybe not be able to run.

(note: I have not read the article from Geoff Raby, but intend to do so this morning)

Hi tvan

I understand about Beijing's decisions often being ignored, and the provincial princes, but there is more to it; it is about being in touch with the right people. Most of the provincial princes were made by Beijing, and/or have spent time there.

I don't know Geoff Raby and I don't know how much he has travelled but I am greatly envious of his experience. (What a cool job!) I wouldn't write him off; I have heard him speak just once and on that amazingly prescient speech in about Sep 2008 would rate him highly - maybe he has a good speech writer? :)

Hi hamshank

I think if you at what he said, it was a criticism of those that ignored Beijing. But the location of the head office is symbolically important, even in the West.

'What would lead to that view being expressed'? Well, experience is my guess. A lot of foreign firms come and go; they find China too hard. Even some big firms. Australian business has a particularly poor record.

BTW you answered my rather rhetorical question about what Shanghai produces beautifully. :)

I would imagine it would be to some companies' advantage to be out of the central government's line of vision.

All good points...

"What does Shanghai produce that is relevant to the rest of the country?"

Good question...A financial hub perhaps?

I would also be interested to know...Why having a head office in Shanghai automatically means they are unable to understand the rest of China? i.e What could have lead to that view being expressed? After all, what is the problem with having the head office in Shanghai and an another non head office in Beijing for example?

Well, Shanghai's whole 'city' history has been associated with foreigners - perhaps that is a factor. Shanghai in the 20th century was largely a creation of foreign governments and foreign business interests - it is also a remarkably new city. Beijing was never like this, and has a long history of urban settlement. (Interestingly Jakarta is rather like Shanghai in this respect.)

I think the cities are equally 'foreigner friendly' in the sense of how 'easy' it is to live there as a foreigner - creature comforts, support systems, foreign networks, and so on.

But Geoff Raby's point is about being in touch with national Chinese networks. Of course Shanghai has its own Chinese networks but they wouldn't count much where I live for example.

What does Shanghai produce that is relevant to the rest of the country? That comment will be controversial .. :) But it is actually a serious question - I don't know the answer.