User Comments - tingyun

Posted on: A Qing Wen to Our Listeners

Hi Zhenlijiang - nice to run into you here again. :)

The expression 我的第一个老师 works well, and can be modified to fit the kind of teacher (我的第一个中文老师） or changed to fit what 'first' you are talking about and used as part of a larger expression (这是我的第一次认识像他这种人；这是我看完的第一部中文书）。

Posted on: The Secret Cash Stash

Dictionaries list it as neutral, and most of the time I've heard it pronounced neutral. But these things differ alot between regions, and in particular most southernors make alot of neutral tones more or less recover their original tone. This isn't restricted to southernors though, take 情形 qing2xing0 for example, most people seem to pronounce it as two second tones, even a friend of mine from 河北 says it that way, though I've definitally also heard it pronounced the dictionary way. And then there are the long list of words where the dictionary insists are full tones but basically everyone has turned them neutral (to the extent it seems weird if you try pronouncing in full tones), ie 面积, 刺激，荒唐 , all still full tones according to the dictionary but not really in practice.

Posted on: Marriage and Divorce

It does seem that the 'that' and 'this' respective translations are close...I would also be interested if there were any finer distinction someone can give.

Posted on: Taking the Plunge into Intermediate

I flipped through 'Dreaming in Chinese' a while back. I think it has a great central message, but I'd take its cultural and linguistic insights with a grain of salt.

For example, there's an extended discussion of how we in english use tones to indicate questions, rising the tone at the end, and Chinese people have enormous problems understanding or learning this because they don't use tones in that way. Except, they do. ;) Perhaps when initially learning one is too focused on individual word tones to notice, but its a very dramatic difference - Chinese is really just as active in varying the tone over the sentence as English, and tones shoot way up over the sentence for questions (and drop steadily for statements, etc). There's also a strong foreigner bias in the language discussions (ie, 马马虎虎 is the chengyu discussed)

Also, there are a number of very odd cultural musings - for example, the author makes an argument that because 3 character names were sometimes used to distinguish cousins, with the 1 child policy this is no longer needed and so 2 character names (single character given names) should become the standard. A rather doubtful conclusion when one considers the broad context of the growing world a kid is going to be exposed to with the internet, larger cities, etc - clearly, 3 character names are becoming more necessary, and I think most Chinese would agree.

And there's a tendency to make too much of things, particularly in looking for some deep philosophical meaning that isn't always there. For example, the author describes how she was going home to visit family and her Chinese friend says 幸福, which she looks up in a chinese-english dictionary as meaning something like 'a sublime sense, denoting a profound and almost perfect happiness.' She then analyzes her surprise at how her friend, who lacked extensive education, had been able to pick out the perfect word to describe her emotions, and how surprising and meaningful that is. Well really its just that 幸福 is just the word people use to describe happiness associated with family - no deeper meaning than that, and certainly no surprise based on the speakers education level.

However, it really is a fun look at one learner's musings and adventures, and there's a lot of charm to its presentation. Really, a great spirit to the book. Just more like a fun conversation with a very excited learner.

I think John's sinosplice blog remains the absolute gold standard for foreigner insight into living in China and learning Chinese.

Posted on: Interpreting Gig at the Exhibition

In most common use there is a structural difference: 对____有兴趣 vs 看上____. But 有兴趣___ is also used, ie 有兴趣做_____.

In meaning, 看上 implies a kind of choosing or selection (boyfriend/girlfriend, what item to buy in store, apartment), 有兴趣 doesn't have this implication, so it would be used for doing some activity or a hobby (I suppose from the perspective of time this has an element of selection, but it's not as direct, and it's not implied in the word)

Posted on: We're lost

Thanks John. I think I picked up the general rule early, when I noticed there was something different in how, say, 哪里 and 姐姐 operated. I had been pronouncing them the same, slowly came to notice this was different than what I was hearing, began to observe more closely and form a sense of the rules. I also remember googling the problem and finding some advice other learners had written on this problem.

I noticed 好好 a bit later, as well as similar ones less commonly used (for example, 远远 as yuan3yuan1, seems both less common and less standard than yuan2yuan3, so I left it out).

Other ones came later - 法子 and 主意 came later (they and 骨头 seem to stem from a similar source, an infrequent tendency to turn 3 0 into 2 0, regardless of the second character's original tone, perhaps because 2 0 is easier to pronounce). I spend alot of time watching tv and repeating after everything they say, with a goal of absorbing the overall sentence rythm and emphasis, so I'm usually copying their tones pretty exactly, rather than trying to force my own sense of what the tones should be. When I end up pronouncing a tone different than what I would have thought it to be, this often sets off an alarm in my head, and I thus generally become aware of these differences.

The same process results in awareness of common pronunciation vs standard pronunciation. Generally I end up revising my pronunciation to follow common use and discard the formal pronunciation when it is a colloquial word - ie 唠叨 with lao1 rather than lao2, 单挑 with tiao1 rather than tiao3 (obviously this one isn't in dictionaries, but the meaning is clearly tiao3 if one tried to 咬文嚼字, but hey, colloquial word)...it's possible that 主意 should be in this category rather than as a tone change, but at any rate, it's a colloquial word, so either way I follow what's common. Though if it is a formal word I retain the formal pronunciation and just make a mental note of the variation to aid in listening comprehension - ie yesterday I heard 返璞归真 with 璞 as pu3 when it should be pu2 （probably speaker confusion with 朴pu3 given the meaning), or a week ago I heard 相形见绌 with 绌 as zhuo2 instead of chu4 (probably confusion with 拙 and then the common mispronunciation of it as zhuo2 instead of zhuo1). And then with words like 嫉妒, which should be ji2du4 but is always pronounced ji4du4, I just avoid the issue altogether and use 忌妒, or like with 统统 and 通通, I just resolve to use 通通 since it is generally pronounced that way regardless of what subtitles say.

One thing I've wondered about is whether certain variations reflect a tone change based on the emotion being conveyed tending to shift into a 4th tone, ie 卑鄙 and 憎, or soften it, ie in 可爱, 爱 is a pretty weak 4th tone。But then again I'm probably looking for a rule where its just random variation, as there are certainly plenty of counter examples.

Posted on: Future Goals

Most only have a single measure word - and generally when there are multiple the implication changes. A few years ago I asked the same question about 只 and 条 for dogs - and Tvan, Changye, and Zhenlijiang all gave some great analysis - http://chinesepod.com/lessons/dog-personalities#comment-118386

Posted on: We're lost

The general rule is that the two 3rd tones in a row change to 2nd followed by 3rd operates regardless of whether the second character is neutralized. So 小姐xiao3jie0 哪里 na3li0 are really pronounced xiao2jie0 na2li0. Exceptions generally fall into 2 categories - a) family terms: 姐姐 奶奶 嫂嫂 are both pinyined and pronounced as jie3jie0 nai3nai0 and sao3sao0. b) use of 子 as a meaningless suffix, ie 果子 is guo3zi0 in both pinyin a pronunciation (that one confused me a while back, because I wasn't sure whether 子 was doing its meaningless suffix role or its role as meaning 'seed'. apparently meaningless suffix is the answer...)

Exceptions to this rule are few - the only 3 ones commonly encountered are 痒痒 - yang3yang0 'itch' in both pinyin and pronunciation, 法子 fa3zi0 'method, solution' in pinyin but fa2zi0 in pronunciation, and 好好 hao3hao0 in pinyin,but hao3hao1 in pronunciation (sort of an exaggerated neutral tone on the second character). Note the last does not refer to the taiwan/southern Chinese 好好 replacement for 很好, which maintains the hao2hao3 pronunciation.

Anyway, not nearly as perplexing as 主意 being pronounced zhu2yi, or 骨头 as gu2tou...;)

Posted on: Keeping 收 and 受 Straight

受影响 or 受__的影响, are both correct. You asked for other examples: 受到惩罚, 受气 (I mean in the sense of receiving abuse or anger). But I don't think its really passive, 影响 can play the role of both noun and verb, and here it is a noun. So its not really any more passive than say 受教育. (教育 can be a verb too, although its rarer to see it used that way). 受 can be followed by any noun, but not by a pure verb (thought those are pretty rare). Though you would tend to use it for less volunterary things, and for less good things, whereas 得 or 得到 will tend to start replacing it as you get further up the voluntary/good meter - though that's only a rough rule.

Posted on: Going to the Gym

Hi podster,

The 中 is necessary - if you just say 发展国家 it means something like 'develop the country', and could be followed by something like 计划 to make 'plan for developing the country', or preceded by something like 持续 to mean 'continue developing the country'. Either way, its a verb-object compound, and I think even developed countries could use it to mean further development. Adding the 中 character in the middle transforms it into a noun - 发展中国家 - 'a country that is in the midst of developing'. If you said 国家发展 you would have a noun but its the equivalent of 国家的发展, 'the development of the nation', doesn't refer to the nation itself.

However, you could also say 后发展国家 which is a noun meaning 'a later developing country' - ie many of the asian countries that learned from the experiences and technology of the earlier developed ones. Logically there should probably be a 中 in there if you meant they are still developing (as opposed to say korea, which would count as developed and as a 后发展国家, there you wouldn't logically expect a 中), but I don't think you should ever use 中 in that expression, regardless. There is also 已发展国家 as an alternate for 发达国家, no 中 there for reasons of both logic and habit.

The 开发 expressions follow a similar patter - 已开发国家, 开发中国家.