Are 老外s more 'open' than Chinese?

I personally found it interesting as I arrived in China shortly after the eponymous show aired on Chinese TV (1995/1996), and it reminded me of Beijing at that time. China has changed quite a lot since then of course, and some of the comments are now a bit dated, even though the book was only published in 2005...

You'll find more informed reviews below (among other places):

http://www.lostlaowai.com/blog/arts-entertainment/music-movies-tv-theatre/review-foreign-babes-in-beijing/

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/alumni/Magazine/Spring2005/babeinbeijing.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=xfcF5EKDZi8C&dq=%22Foreign+Babes+in+Beijing%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=2EwoTNOdLIOknQfJ9pCpAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCcQ6AEwBA

I have not read it. Do you recommend it?

Phil

Culture fascinates me as well. I think you may understand this paradox better if you think of it in terms of face, rather than just morality. Also, when they say we are more "open", I think they are referring to dating and legitimate courtship behaivior patterns. This is a different issue.

I can't disagree with what you said. However, my aim isn't to judge Chinese (if that is what you are implying) if you mean by 'judge' as in evaluating right and wrong. I'm trying to get a better grasp of the situation, even if incomplete. I'm interested in all aspects of Chinese culture.

There may be in China as well as other countries, a feeling by some that a social safety valve is there by necessity but they are not proud of it, nor do they want to discuss it with foreigners. It can be very unfair to judge the imperfections of one society through the microscope of another.

RJ (and pretzellogic)

Well, let me assure you, no herbs are needed on my behalf :).

I might add a small tidbit to my barber experience. The place looked completely legit. It was in the mid-afternoon and not on a very busy street, so I wasn't totally surprised at the lack of hair cutting happening at first. I was merely a tad bewildered at first when they called the guy over. I thought perhaps he was taking a nap. But then I saw a women come in, put on some make up, and leave. That was a good sign. It wasn't until curiosity grabbed me and made me walk past the place at night and saw the pack of women hanging out near the window that I confirmed the truth.

I know what you mean about calling a cheap shot on the Chinese. Any time someone publicly discusses something like this, there is a good chance that it becomes an opportunity to say some things that are unfair, hurtful and even spiteful. I don't know. I must admit, as if it isn't clear from above, that I do get annoyed when I hear about Chinese criticizing Western/foreign "open" habits. But really, I do mostly want to wrap my head about this. I know that anecdotal evidence is never going to paint a clear picture in a land of 1.3 billion people, but I think it is possible to wander from a pitch black room to a heavily foggy day. That's better than nothing, or so I tell myself.

Another thing is, I don't think I ever really questioned that there are hypocrites in China or anywhere else. Of course there are. The question in my mind is, how common is this hypocrisy? As we are aware, in America, many young and old, very normal people go to the bar. Some go just to talk, watch a game, listen to music and so on. But of course, some are also looking for something more 'open'. I have had the opportunity to go to the bar a couple times with some young, apparently typical Chinese. They always sit around while having an antsy, slightly uncomfortable look on their face that seems to say, "What are we supposed to do? " It's this innocence that is in apparent contradiction with all the industry related to sex in Shanghai that makes me wonder, what is happening? Perhaps it is as xiao_liang alluded to, Chinese are just not comfortable being open with their emotions and intentions, so they (and this part is mine, not xiao-liang's) will find a much more discrete way to deal with their 'needs'. But again, surely this must happen, but is it common?

By the way, anybody who wants an interesting read about this and other topics in China, I suggest reading China Road by NPR correspondent Rob Gifford. It is just one man's experience, but it is an interesting read.

PL,

Ok, got it. I have never had a massage in China, or a haircut for that matter. I have had a foot massage and I found it slightly painful. They tend to think foreigners are tougher, at least when it comes to the feet, and I didn't want to wimp out and tell them any different :-). Most legit hair salons, which as you have pointed out can usually be recognized (although an austere atmosphere does not guarantee an X rated hair cut. As in most stories there is some truth but you will be treated well in China. As Phil points out, they aim to please, even if they have to call in a favor.

One thing I did enjoy, was a scalp massage I once recieved at a high end hair salon. They dry wash your hair, rinse, and then finger massage your scalp until the hair is completely dry. This works well with short hair and it is so comfortable. I fell asleep, and would gladly do this again.

As I always say, there are 1.3 billion answers to every question in China. Once you have a story to tell, there will be 1.3 billion plus one more.

Cheers

RJ

hmmmm.... well, I never went into one of these places (I have my wife cut my receding/pattern baldness hair anyway), but it's easy to see that:

- some hair salons have lots of people in them in chairs getting haircuts/styles (type A), while others have just the barber chairs (type B)

- some hair salons seem to have pictures of men and women sexily and stylishly coiffed (type A), while others have just bare whitewashed walls (type B).

- some of these places have only women in them (type B), while others have men and women (type A)

- some places seem "chic" (type A), and the others seem plain to dull (type B)

- while i've seen a type A hair salon in Boston, LA, Chicago, Dayton OH, i've never really seen a type B hair salon anywhere but in China (or I should say, Lanzhou, Beijing, Yantai and Shanghai).

- certain behaviors exihibited by the type B hair stylists are consistent with non-hair stylist behaviors i've seen in other places.

- interestingly, I told my spouse (who's lived in China 8 years longer than I have) about my observations, and she said these type B places are hair salons, though she's never had her hair cut in one, or been in one.

- Bottom Line: from personal experience, I don't know that Type B hair salons are anything but hair salons. I've never been in one, and don't know anyone who has been in one.

So... RJ, you're a businessman, a frequent traveler to China..... what's your experience? :-)

Hi Changye!

辣结局 maybe? Or was it Futterwacken? (hint - from Alice in WL)

Actually, I was just trying to give Xiaophil a hard time. I hope he's up for it.

Pretz - So, one anecdote confirms another? Like UFO's? What exactly has been confirmed? What were you suspecting? (be nice). :-)

In an online dictionary, "happy ending" is translated as “美丽结局”, but in this case I would say “任务圆满成功！” hehe

Ah, so now we begin to see your true motivation . Don't worry Phil, there are special herbs available all across Asia, just for guys like you. 哈哈。

The truth is，this is way too complex a matter to be adequately addressed in a medium such as this. thereby making your invitation to do so. an unfair shot at China. Each culture has its own ways to handle the worlds oldest hypocrisy. Outside Las Vegas it is legal for example. I would also think that a smart, worldly, young fellow such as yourself would be more than adequately prepared:

1. Not to judge

2. To b e able to recognize (and thus avoid) such a place using the following hints:

A.The pink lights,

B. The all young female staff with empty chairs who respond to eye contact with smiles and giggles, while inviting you in by wagging their index fingers.

C. The unusual atmosphere and price structure.

D. Other recognizable nuances

Do what I do, (and I have found these encounters rather rare) chuckle under your breath, wave, and walk on.

How do you say "happy ending" in Chinese?

I do in fact 明白. Some cultures like or accept deviant behavior, but only in their own way.

I often think some Chinese might be thinking something like this:

"Yeah, the brothels are bad, but I won't go there, and I don't know anybody who would, but foreigners on the other hand, I bet they all go sometimes."

I did meet an American who met a Chinese man in America who asked an interesting question, "So where can I find prostitutes?" as if it was a common question! I doubt most Chinese would think this is acceptable behavior, but it gets me thinking, when some Chinese hear about one bad foreigner, much like the Chinese man I mentioned, perhaps they think they can make a sweeping conclusion for all nationalities and ethnic groups that aren't Chinese.

Well anyway...

Thanks for the link mate, it's a gas. I think I'm gonna favorite that one, brilliant. I'd say that lady gets to see an unrepresentative sample of 老外. She may even have had an affair (or two?) with foreign friends unable to appreciate her unique gifts and worldview.

The thought also occurs to me that basically Chinese people like their smut smutty, and like folk everywhere they like to have their cake and eat it... er, yeah... They'll enjoy it because it's smut with Chinese characteristics, and that means it's our smut, 明白吗？It's not foreign smut, it's 漂亮 Chinese boobs presented for ogling in that shopping mall, and it's a 真了不起 young businessman/artist making good with erotic toys in your other link, right?

Yeah, these are all good points. I get scared when Chinese 'teach' me something about my culture through insight derived from Desperate Housewives.

Thanks for your reply, Bodawei.

I was a bit surprised that you thought 'sex for sale' is about the same as Sidney as what you have generally seen in China, but come to think of it, Sidney is a big city like New York and L.A. and I would expect that kind of activity in those places. My hometown is called Grand Rapids, and it is one of the most nondescript places one could find in the US, although perhaps a bit more conservative than most. I won't say that brothels have not and will not exist, but they are shut down quite quickly. Street walkers can be found, but in rather low quantities, and the cops are after them. Sex toy shops and stripper bars (not legal in China, I might add) are legal, but are zoned away and are in short numbers. This I suppose is why I am a bit confused when I hear Chinese look down at the 所谓 promiscuous behavior of foreigners.

Yes, no doubt I do have a different perspective - I have spent my time in China married to an Australian woman, and I am an older generation. :)

But for what it is worth I have given it some thought and my view is that, on the subject of 'sex for sale', there is not a significant difference between my experience/observed behaviour in China and my home town of Sydney (aka 'sin city'). One difference is that brothels are more ubiquitous in China - they are 'everywhere'. In Sydney (and most of the West) prostitution is mainly regulated by city planners - the land use zoning determines where brothels are located. With the result that brothels tend to be located in discrete parts of town. In China they are in every part of town. Prostitutes on the street are generally illegal in both countries (but often a blind eye is turned.) The incidence of sex shops/ adult shops is similar, but again they tend to be anywhere in China, whereas in Sydney they are zoned out of 'nice' residential areas, and kept away from schools.

Interestingly the scope and style of legislation is not significantly different either. I have to admit to doing some reading on this - part of my language and culture studies. :) There are differences in enforcement (due to culture differences, and the influence of Mao-style 'campaigns' that are still a part of modern policing to some extent), but in both countries there is a high degree of 'turn a blind eye', issuing cautions etc. rather than prosecution. In China prostitution is rarely treated as a criminal offence. Some of the literature suggests that China is marginally more enlightened than the West because it treats both the prostitute and the customer as in the wrong. In the West we generally treat the prostitute as the wrong doer (it's easier.) In China the police will sometimes ring the wife to report an 'offence'; if that doesn't work they ring the boss at work - something we in the West would describe as humiliation.

My personal experience is based on about six months of travel in China all up, spending some time in about um.. 30 towns and cities (I haven't counted them in a while - must do that to get my facts straight). And living in an eastern seaboard city and a city in the south west for about a year in each case. BTW, I have spent some time in Chengdu for example - my (superficial) impression is that Chengdu is more sexually 'liberated' than even Shanghai - just my impression. I find Shanghai (in perhaps a dozen stays over the past few years) a bit proper by comparison. As for being 'offered' sex the most blatant I found was in towns and cities in 东北。 My experience is supported anecdotally; I'd like to understand why it is way up north that they are most likely to call your room at night offering 'massage'.

Hope this adds to poddies' appreciation of contemporary Chinese culture.

I don't know about the papers, but foxnews.com does have a lot of smutty gossip right on front. I am not so offended by such articles, but I do think they belong in a different place. As for having this discussion here, I didn't want to annoy anyone, and I didn't want to turn this into flat-out Chinese sex talk.

Maybe you do need to take a different look :-). I don't know. Perhaps being married to a Chinese women, often having very, very small classes with Chinese from all colors and living in mainland's most cosmopolitan city has given me a different perspective than you. Although, this view could be distorted as well. Being too close sometimes makes one even less objective.

RJ

Haha, I know it seems foolish, but he did have the right tools, and honestly, I never get the haircut I ask for in China. It usually looks good, but not in the way I expected. So my attitude was, sit back and enjoy the bizarre-ness.

You certainly are right about sexual issues and hypocrisy. I would like to know how widespread the hypocrisy is. In China, with so many people, just because something is visible, doesn't mean that it is many people or even a sizable minority.

The small towns are still quite conservative, but then again, what country's aren't? But I suppose Chinese small towns are even more so. My wife is from a small town. Everybody knows each other, and most everyone is in constant contact with grandparents, aunts, uncles and so forth. Add on top of that no KTV or any other fun spot to go to, I don't think I would feel comfortable showing skin either.

I'd agree with the observation that the amount of skin being revealed depends on how close you are to a major metropolitan area. I've definitely seen more Chinese skin in urban areas than in rural areas. I've also seen more kissing and other public displays of affection in the city from native Chinese than from foreigners.

duibuqi ,wo zhi kaiwanxiao

当然。我不是日本人！

你就说你不是日本人吗？？

svik

About TV and movies, you have a point.. I sometimes hear Chinese say something like, "I think foreigners are like xxxx because I saw on Friends xxx".

RJ

That is often true, but more and more it isn't (or at least they are Asian and I can't tell the difference). The ads I specifically referred to above appeared to be Chinese.

From my short stays in China during the past few years, it seems to me that the impression that many young people have of Americans is shaped more by the many films and television shows they have watched on the internet, rather than by the few actual Americans they might have met.

In the 1980s people in China had much vaguer ideas of foreigners. A guy in Luoyang once asked me if I were Japanese. (My beard was a little red then!)

did you ever notice that none of the models in the bikini or underwear ads are Chinese? You are in China, but all the ads use western girls.

Indeed, sometimes 'open' is used in the way that you expressed, but the way in which I mention is also used.

Girls do cover up more here. If my wife wears a dress that exposes too much of her shoulders, she has to find some way to cover it up. I never really thought of shoulders as a particularly sexual thing, although they can add to the package. But I noticed that bikinis are being promoted left and right in Shanghai. Just the other day I was walking through a subway tunnel when I saw poster after poster of sexy young ladies in bikinis. It was a long tunnel. Another thing is the sex toy shop phenomena. (I think they call them 'sex health shop'.) They are found all over the place and there doesn't seem to be any ordinance rule whatsoever. In front of a high school... why not?