Simpler Chinese chatting?

i think people who write in chinese on this site are just trying to practice writing in chinese... nothing wrong with that ;)

I don't mean this to be my IME is better than your IME, but I have to add this to this side trip into IMEs. The MS IME is really quite sophisticated. You can, if you want, just type away in pinyin and let it decide what characters you want based on an understanding of the sentence you're typing. If you need the list of choices for the character you need, it's there in order of frequency. It also learns the patterns you use to help it in deciding what character you mean for the pinyin.

Lastly, it includes hand writing recognition. Though it works with a mouse, you probably need to add a writing tablet.

BTW, is there a set of instructions in English for the Google pinyin translator. I tried to have bablefish do the translation, but it was mostly incomprehensible, for instance, the name it comes up with is "Google valley song Pinyin input method" as the name of the software. Not a big surprise for a Chinese to English translation.

GOOGLE PINYIN TOOL MAGIC - I wanted to add that the pinyin tool from Google is really quite amazing. It does

much more than just convert your pinyin input into hanzi.

The tool actually pulls from Google's database of Chinese words on the web, and presents you with a picklist of hanzi to choose from based on that frequency.

In other words, it's likely to give you a picklist of common vocabulary and the words you're most likely to be wanting to say!

It is not like some older tools that first presented a picklist of characters based on number of strokes, or some random academic guess at what one might want.

In other words, this Google tool almost helps you think!

Don't be intimidated by the download page which is in all Chinese, just click the big download button. Use ctrl-shift to switch between input methods and shift to switch between English/Chinese for the tool itself.

Try it out, takes about 5 minutes (really!) to install and start clicking away.

http://tools.google.com/pinyin/

--------------------------------------------

A quote from this site:

http://www.liewcf.com/blog/archives/2007/04/download-google-chinese-pinyin-input-method/

Google Labs (China) announced the Google PinYin Input Method(谷歌 拼音输入法) for all Chinese users.

Google Chinese PinYin Input Method toolbar

Google PinYin Input Method is a free download for Windows users. Although Windows XP and Vista have built-in Chinese input method from Microsoft, Google PinYin Input Method has some unique features:

* Smart sentence building - Google PinYin Input Method builds sentences for you, reduce the time to choose the correct words.

* Popular words - Powered by Google database, Google PinYin Input Method automatically updates the latest buzz words in Internet.

* Sync - You can sync your input habit and personalized words with Google account and apply it on other computer.

Also. The IME, I believe, is included in Windows XP. Go to the Control Panel and select Regional and Language Options. Then select the Languages tab where you can turn on the language bar which allows you to type in pinyin among other methods.

If I remember correctly, you have to have a Chinese font or two already installed. They don't install automatically, but are on the installation CD

You can also find fonts on the Internet and at Microsoft. Arial Unicode MS is there, for instance.

If you use Windows, you can install Microsoft's Global Input Editor (IME) which allows you to type in pinyin to produce Chinese characters. It can be found here:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie6/downloads/recommended/ime/install.mspx

I installed the additional eastindian language support from windows and then addet a chinese symplified keybord layout and now I simply press a 3-key combination to switch between simplyfied Chinese and German standard keybordlayout :-)

Oh 谢谢你，Bazza! I needed that pinyin software...

I use this for character typing:

http://tools.google.com/pinyin/

And this for pinyin typing:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/pinyinput-install.zip

a little off-topic, BUT i'm just curious... what are people using to type in chinese characters??? i bought my computer in asia, so i have the chinese version of windows installed on my computer, so i can easily type in chinese and my keyboard has chinese (bmpf and radicals). as for people who don't have this kind of setup, how do you do it??? i'm guessing download some software from the internet??? also, how do you enter the characters, with pinyin???

wei1xiao4 （委笑？）, you can always try simple stuff straight away. Next time you find yourself typing a word in pinyin give it a try as characters. :)

Chinesepod is a site for people wanting to learn Chinese. If we are inhibited by other's judging us by the fact that we will inevitably make mistakes, it stifles the learning potential in the conversation board. Reading what my fellow poddies have written in hanzi makes me work harder because I want to know what is going on. I want to get the joke. I want to know what others think. It is a motivation that helps me learn. I think what I get from reading other's hanzi is much more than any mistake I may run across. I'm inspired by you all. You give me something to work towards. One day I'll get up the courage and the proficiency in hanzi and I'll post in characters. Let's just all agree that our feelings will not get hurt if someone actually takes the time to correct our mistakes. Wouldn't that be helpful! I would welcome that!

Relax everyone. An incorrect posting is not going to mangle my Chinese, but an opportunity not taken because of "ai4mian4zi" could limit it.

By the way, I must correct one notion that the practice plan is only to improve speaking. While that is one area that is taught, listening comprehension, and writing are just as important. I write compositions at least once a week for practice plan.. Learning a language is not a one legged stool. You need reading, writing, speaking, listening, and indeed a great sense of humor about yourself. Practice plan is about your needs, not a formula.

(感谢你)

even better ;-)

Priceless. ;)

DSL unpayable (or how was that Visa commercial...) ;-)

一个 Headset ca. 9,60 €

RonInDC, unfortunately I'm not setup to use skype and my spoke Chinese is probably not very good at all.

(and to pick up ;-) )

律全 you really don't have to worry about the quality of your English here, though people learn English here (you for instance, or me to some extent). There's plenty of standard English and occasional slang to pick out.

是个熟练的问题吧，我觉得用英文写很花时间，而且我也很怕写错

Hi AeF,

That's cause I'm in Camp Bravo. :)

About incorrect habits. Taking the same evidence, I see more of the opposite as a conclusion. Isn't it the case that those English speakers have plenty of correct input?

Aeflow, being an impenitent bad hanzi writer, I feel a bit lowdown reading your comments. Looks like I've already forgotten what was the imperative for me not long ago, when I would never write or utter a single sentence, except when communication had no other means to rely on (when my teacher asked something, to tell the truth).

That is, copying down ready-made sentences as we all should do up to a fluent stage, as a mere computer.

Obviously I'm in camp Bravo (I'd say Bêta), with an Alpha ideal which becomes more and more theoretical as I corrupt my mechanical, take-no-sh#t approach, along with that of other learners who may deem my sentences bold enough to hint at some ability in the language.

I (almost) fully agree with your above arguments, and I respect the coherence of your humble opinion on language acquisition so much that I cannot but think that I'm deceiving myself on the points on which disagree.

Let alone the issue of whether an individual linguistic habit, as opposed to community usage, is really hard to remove (I'll just put a ? sign on the research field), I'd feel cleaner if I could freely move back in the boundaries of safe Chinese, but it will be hard, because there are benefits (even mutual ones) to the practice of Chinese through comments posting. All of these are in conflict with learning efficiency criteria, I realize it too often to say I know it. And still I think that, provided that you take measures to avoid people taking your attempts for granted learning material, the lurching pace at which you walk up the longer path is a worthwhile experience.

But the only reason is that you feel solitary on the straight one, I mean when you don't have native Chinese speakers to talk to with your toddling tongue. So let me cloak that human tendency to err shamelessly under a compromise: I'll stick to what I've done up to now, gauging the audience before deciding what amount of English I want to put in, to prevent the ill inspired hanzi I'm bound to pepper here and there to rot and let rot. But I'll add warnings, 拙见, IMOs, 希望我的愚意会抛砖引玉 and suchlike.

I sound arrogant, but that's a colateral damage if I don't want to sound hypocritical on the long term, because my careless use of hanzi will not cease, so I don't want to lie to boot... "I'll go to hell all right". I hope we all finally get in Camp Zebra, eating peaches and drinking milk :)

Lantian,

You're misrepresenting "Camp Alpha".

I'm just pointing out that bad habits, once formed and reinforced, can be very hard to break. Sometimes it's harder to break a bad habit than to get it right, right from start. Some people never succeed: one example I see all the time is English speakers who consistently mess up masculine/feminine genders in a European language even after years of otherwise considerable proficiency.

Listening to other students is not a good way to learn correct tones for instance, and reading other students' writing is probably not a good way to learn idiomatic phrasing and word order.

Chinese students learning English probably wouldn't be able to teach one another to write successfully. If they wrote to one another in broken English, they'd just reinforce common errors in plurals, verb conjugation, countable/uncountable nouns (much vs. many), etc. etc.

It's a good thing to push yourself to fearlessly write Chinese; it's less good to do so without getting feedback to nip common mistakes in the bud; and it's a bad thing to make anyone else read what you've written, other than trained professional native Chinese speakers in full hazmat gear. :)

In general, I like the hanzi postings. It stretches the limits of my ability, which is generally a good thing when I am learning. When I don't have time, or get too frustrated, I just skip over them.

Lost in all this debate about postings is (I think) the original suggestion of more low-level Chinese discussion in the newbie/beginner lessons. For what it's worth, as a newbie/beginner, I think it's a great idea.

By the way, Lantian, thanks for the web link -- very useful.

Bazza- you're so smart and cool. How are you on the spoken word? Let's have a Skype conference call and I'll speak at my level and you speak at yours. Game?

我写拼音和看文with ChinesePera-kun 但是这个路是很慢

Maybe ChinesePod could expand their dialogue annotation tool so that it works in the conversations area, for the newbies that can't be bothered (or don't know how) to install their own.

It has been very useful to me to write a small composition in 汉字 every week. I have my own arrangements for getting feedback from native speakers on my compositions. The feedback is also extremely useful. So, I agree that this would be a useful service for CPod to offer, even if I wouldn't sign up myself.

Writing gives think time, which speaking doesn't. So, it is a good opportunity to push my grammar and vocabulary limits. Plus, feedback is easier in writing. Too many corrections while talking wrecks the flow of the conversation.

I've found that pinyin is hard to use to communicate with native speakers. There are too many ambiguities. And, actually once I got familiar with enough 汉字, it is easier for me to read than pinyin.

All that said, I'm still not facile enough at reading Chinese to skim it in blogs. So, I have to admit I skip most blog comments that are in Chinese.

Newbie dialogs have transcripts that are in Chinese. I think this is sufficient exposure for podies who want learn 汉字. And I think the rewards of learning are many, but I don't think Chinese blog postings would be very useful to a newbie. It took me 3 or 4 years before I could comfortably exchange emails in Chinese, and like I said I still don't read well enough to spend the extra time it takes to read all of the Chinese blog postings. (I can just skim the English ones to figure out which ones I'm interested in.)

TWO CAMPS - It's interesting reading this discussion, there seem to be two definite viewpoints, both of which I can respect.

CAMP ALPHA seems to say I don't need hanzi right now, I'm scared to write it wrong and make mistakes, and seeing mistakes will mess me up; please speak in English to me. If I do write, I like corrections and I prefer feedback only from native speakers.

CAMP BRAVO says I'd like to learn hanzi now, I don't care if I make mistakes writing, and I'm a bit selfish and will just speak in Chinese. I feel over time this practice itself will clear up errors. Because I also have other inputs, any mistakes I read here really aren't going to overwhelm the large preponderance of other 100% proper reading materials I have.

Of course you all can guess which camp I'm in. :)

One bridge between the camps are the various online tools for translating hanzi which is easier to do online than in real life., ie. www.adsotrans.com

Hi RonInDC and Harry,

I think I would agree with the two of you on motives if the situation was writing in hanzi at the NYT website. But this is a Chinese-learning site! And I think even at the get-go hanzi is possible to learn/use, if one wants it.

Personally, my motives are to learn Chinese and I believe in taking every opportunity. Usually I ratchet-down the hanzi level in my newbie posts, or intentionally insert hanzi from the lesson. The triple posting in English/pinyin/hanzi is just too time consuming some times.

While I guess this does exclude some, and I could just stay sequestered in the intermediate and above threads, I just often find the newbie and elementary topics very interesting and more likely than not there is still new vocab and usages there for me to learn as well.

There's no motive to exclude. :) Except for a couple of posters, one whose name rhymes with Flatulence ;p

吧喳,

是吗。英国的天气不太好。看温赛很难，又下雨，又等！

Henning， 不会吧。 写汉字比较慢？ 所以应该多练练吧！越多用越快！现在我不太喜欢用英文送短信，我觉得拼汉字比较方便！当然写复杂的题目。。。打汉字还是很慢。:(

So who's in Camp Zebra?! :)

wei1xiao4,

Yes, we have to practice speech and writing and not be afraid to make mistakes. But we should do so with native speakers of Chinese. Students inflicting mistake-ridden non-idiomatic Chinese on one another is suboptimal. At worst it actually reinforces mistakes.

There's an infinite supply of gramatically correct Chinese writing on the Internet. It's better to read that instead.

It would be interesting though if ChinesePod offered grading of compositions as part of one of its plans. You write a paragraph or two in Chinese on a given assigned topic (perhaps related to a lesson), and get it back marked up in red, with substitutions and corrections. This could be part of some new "Writing Practice" plan, to complement the existing Practice plan which is a "speech practice" plan.

Sometimes when I write the characters I am afraid I will write them incorrectly and not accurate enough, and they will turn out to mean something else! A little off-topic here but, I heard about some people get tattoos with Chinese words and them and they are told it means a certain thing (like 'peace') and it turns out really meaning something else (like 'dummy'). Scarey. Permanent too.

So what if there are mistakes. If you are afraid of making mistakes, you are in the wrong language. Ha! We need to feel safe and secure about trying to improve our Chinese skills while we are on Chinesepod, no matter what level we are in. Mistakes are part of the learning process.

Lantian，“吧喳”是有意思的音译。现在即使英国的夏天也又湿又冷。

Yep, Harry, that pretty much is it. Having hanzi-only posts in Newbie lessons doesn't move me much. But calling it a learning tool seems odd to me, that's all.

Very often I don't read posts in Chinese here, I just skip over them, unless I know the person who wrote it is either a native speaker or someone very proficient (John, etc). I don't want to be influenced by other people's mistakes, and I don't want to inflict my mistakes on others. Reading and posting in the Conversations section is something I do to take a break from studying Chinese, rather than a part of studying Chinese.

Another issue is traditional vs. simplified. Some people are much more comfortable with one, or simply unable to read the other.

总的来说我同意。 可是用汉字写帖很花时间， 留问题不怎么方便。 可以影响本来的意思 (甚至用英语可以发现问题， 比较我的《止咳糖》帖。。。)。

最好写两版 - 汉字的和英语的。

In general I agree, but it is rather time consuming to post in Hanzi and it is not really convinient to pose questions that way. This might influence meaning (writing in English can be hard enough, cf "cough drops").

The best would be probably to have 2 versions: A Hanzi one and a German one.

Lantian

If you write in Hanzi to Newbies then they wont be able to understand, so who are you writing to and what is your motive for doing it? That's probably what Ron means by being rude.

Hi RonInDC,

Rude? Why...it doesn't seem obvious to me. What do you mean? Frustration I can get, but nobody is trying to be rude to newbies by writing in hanzi, right?

Bazza/ 吧喳，

你是太好的学生！英国的天气真么样？

我觉得好主意。

While it's nice to have translation, it doesn't bother me to see hanzi-only as, after all, this is a Chinese language site. The only exceptions are the Newbie lessons. I see such posts and think they're rude for obvious reasons. Also, it's a bit frustrating to click on an English link for a blog to see the description in hanzi. Just make the link Chinese and I know not to check it out. Seems fair.

opics the link should be in chinese if the 'question' is. It's a tad frustrating if you click on an English link then you can't read the entry.

Hi Executer,

You're absolutely right, and I also don't think anyone needs to feel they HAVE to learn hanzi.

But I have a pretty strong inclination that there are lots who would like to learn/utilize a little bit of the hanzi, and there's not much encouragement for that.

By that I don't mean that Cpod and others don't answer user questions about a particular hanzi, or phrase, but I'm saying that too few people take the opportunity to actually just use some hanzi to communicate.

Cpod is one of the few opportunities to do this without criticism, w/o the pressure of having to communicate something vital, without the full pressure of a native-speaker onlslaught of hanzi, etc.

Do learners have to get to the advanced stages of writing hanzi on their own?

So why not encourage it a bit more at the lower levels?

I think you have a group of learners here that don´t have the wish nor the need to learn hanzi and another group that maybe needs it or not that want´s to learn it. They all build this community and it seems to be the case that the no hanzi part is the bigger one at the moment, but they who wants to learn ém will not vanish ´cause the more 中文 you learn the greater the wish to learn hanzi will be.

and at the upper levels you barely find someone not writing hanzi.