王小波 －《黄金时代》Wang Xiaobo - The Golden Age (1)

hey guys，actually i m a chinese girl.i come here because i like wang xiaobo so much.if you have any questions about his books,i can answer them in chinese or english for you.now i am a freshman major in english in the university in beijing.nice to meet all of you!maybe we can help each other's language,lol....

Great! So, assuming that Kathy does not feel in honour bound to finish Wang Er`s story, we are ready to switch! I am very happy with your choice of Zhang Aileen and already found the text in my edition of her works. (I must confess that I need to hold a book in my hands and have only been partly converted to the world of computers). Yeah, I think ZAL' style may be a challenge but I have great confidence in our joint efforts and am looking forward to the further development of our team dynamics!

A very stupid question: How do I get rid of my gloomy shadow avatar? It deperesses me!!

Great! So, assuming that Kathy does not feel in honour bound to finish Wang Er`s story, we are ready to switch! I am very happy with your choice of Zhang Aileen and already found the text in my edition of her works. (I must confess that I need to hold a book in my hands and have only been partly converted to the world of computers). Yeah, I think ZAL' style may be a challenge but I have great confidence in our joint efforts and am looking forward to the further development of our team dynamics!

A very stupid question: How do I get rid of my gloomy shadow avatar? It deperesses me!!

There are some links to Chinese electronic texts here http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dporter/sampler/sampler.html maybe you can find something there?

I also really like reading in this small group, it's very motivating!

Yes, I have read the whole novella to the end, but not carefully.

The collapsing-fish-dam-boys are definitely not han, they are described as 景颇族, belonging to the jingpo minority.

What about trying out Eileen Zhang , "倾城之恋", "Love in a fallen city"? It is a bit older, and a also bit more difficult. But we are pretty good, aren't we?..:) The novella is clearly very high quality stuff. If we get totally lost in it, there is a recent translation which is presumably also very good. There is a link to an interview with the translator here: http://www.conversationalreading.com/2007/06/readingthewor_6.html

There is a net version of it (with some obvious typos) here:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~dporter/sampler/ailing.html but it should be comparatively easy to obtain this text anyhow.

If you have other suggestions, I'm happy to to hear about them..:)

I am really thrilled with the learning opportunity this group is offering me-- All too often, when left to my own devices, I assume that I have understood and go on reading --- now I have both your questions and answers to make me aware of gaps in my translating process -- and automatically quite a bit of repetition -so thank you both! I am no longer quite sure whether you have read the whole novella, Marcel -- but if you, Kathy, are unhappy about the grimness of the topics now, I worry a bit. Things are not going to get any better and WXB tendency to repeat certain scenes almost verbatim does not help to lighten the impression. I, too, have been wondering secretely whether I really want go through all this suffering again and with a fine comb to boot. Would you have any suggestions for a change, Marcel? I would be happy to go along -- but of course, if you two are for sticking with it, I am with you, too. By the way, Marcel, now that I am looking at the names of the local boys who were involved in the collapse of the fish-dam, I am inclined, too, to think they are non Han as you suggested it on a previous occasion for another guy.

Kathy> Unfortunately, I cannot promise you anything..:)

If you are tired of this particular text, we can try to find another, it's no big deal to me as long as we read Chinese. And it seems that bokane has left us anyhow.

1. 卧 is simplified for 臥, wo4, lie down. (That's a really big simplification).

2. 即可 = "That will do", so presumably, "only cutting with the knife will do"

3. I have the same translation.

4. Maybe "I would be able to continue to be wild for the rest of my life"?

5. Perhaps, but what is then the function of the 坝? It seems that he has spent a lot of energy building it.

6. That confused me too when I read it, but I think that 勒农 is simply the name of one of the two 景颇族 boys.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I won't take the Orwell theory as gospel, but it sounds like a promising guess to me.

Thought I’d keep slogging along here. I don't mind that this isn't all sweetness and light, but somebody please tell me I don’t have to read much more about castration and singularly unfortunate sunburns.

OK, here goes:

Kathy’s questions on the first 1.5 pages of Chapter 2!

1. (Paragraph 1) I’ve never seen this anatomical nickname before, do guys in China really use the term小和尚?

2. (Paragraph 3) I can’t find this character in Yellowbridge, or in my dictionary: 卧. It’s in two sentences: 我爬起来看牛，发现它们都卧在远处的河岔里静静地嚼草. …我们的牛依旧安卧不动。

3. (Paragraph 4) What’s the meaning of 即可 in this sentence: 对于一般的公牛，只用刀割去即可。

4. (Paragraph 5) I have the same question as Marcel, which as far as I can tell hasn’t been answered: 就如我之存在本身 - "like my very existence"?

5. (Paragraph 5) 后来我才知道，生活就是个缓慢受锤的过程 It wasn’t until later that I knew that life is just a slow process of being hammered (in the sense of being smashed/crushed). Right?

6. (Paragraph 5) 我觉得自己会永远生猛下去，什么也锤不了我。I get every word in this sentence except precisely how 猛 fits. How would you translate 生猛下去?

7. (Paragraph 5) I’m not sure if Marcel got an answer to 戽鱼, but it seems to me he was just keeping his fish in a bucket (戽).

8. (Paragraph 5) 那个年记大点的说：“都怪鸡巴勒农！他老坐在坝上，把坝坐鸡巴倒了！” I think I understand this, except for 勒农. Do these two characters go together? Is it le4 or lei1? What does it mean?

It's really good that you are following this, and it does not matter if you are a chapter behind. Oh, and you guys, don't get too excited about Orwell, I know nothing concrete about this, I am just guessing. I might be all wrong...:)

Thanks to you both for the translation help and especially for the note on Orwell's influence and doublespeak - very useful. I'll try to get through Chapter 2 this week and will get back to you with more questions and thoughts.

Kathy

Marcel, your comments to the labelling going on in our story really add to my understanding. (I suppose by now we are all long beyond expecting lightheartedness...) Of course, language is always an instrument of power and can be misused --- thank you for providing food for thought beyond mere translation.

I believe that Wang is very influenced by "1984" by Orwell. One give-away is that Wang has written a short story called "2015". This could be relevant here : in "1984" the governing party develops an improved version of English, in which it is difficult or impossible to argue against the party line. To achieve this is largely a matter of defining words correctly.

I think that this "doublespeak" rests on a long marxist tradition: For instance, you can give a scientific definition of the word "exploitation", and then you can use this word objectively (according to your definition) to describe capitalism. The point is that the word already has strong negative connotations, which are not part of the definition, but will always be understood when the word is used. In this way you can have the cake and eat it.

I think that the use of 破鞋 here is similar. You can define it by saying that if everyone says you are one, then you are. At the same time, the word already has some (different) content.

Hmm I would suggest "This is simply a designation, so that if everyone says that you are a 破鞋, then you are one. Reason does not enter into it."

I suppose that the logic of this is similar to the more acceptable "If everyone calls this thing a table, then, by definition, it is a table." Or, less acceptable, but more relevant to this period: "If everyone says that you are an enemy of the people, then you are an enemy of the people."

So we are three again, that's great! Obviously texts are an issue here. Thank you for all your input re "dead balls", Marcel -- I am ready to bury them and just remember your sports info. As regards Kathy's question to paragraph 4: I have that in my book and it goes as follows: 我 對 她 說，她 確 實 是 個 破 鞋，還 舉 出 一 些 理 由 來：所 謂 破 鞋 者，乃 是 一 個 指 稱， 大 家 都 說 你 是 破 鞋， 你 就 是 破 鞋，沒 什 麻 道 理 可 講。

Hi Kathy!

Great that you are back, and with good questions!

I agree with your translations:

In paragraph 5, I think that the subject of the sentence 完全是一副流氓相 is himself, so that he is saying that he looks like/is a 流氓.

I agree that Chen Qingyang's palms itch to give him an 耳光.

My dictionary translates 神经质 as "nevousness", which I guess also makes sense.

I can't find the "乃是一个指称" from the 4th paragraph in my text, and we already had some disagreements among texts.

Hello, all.

I finally had a chance to sit down and read through Chapter 1. So much for hoping for a sympathetic protagonist. So far this guy seems like a real jerk - and from your exchange about Chapters 2 and 3, it doesn't sound like he improves.

Even with the miracle of annotation this still slow for me - but I'll get better. It's fascinating that what trips some of us up is really clear to others and vice-versa. I was glad to have your questions already addressed for Chapter 1. I have a few of my own:

Kathy's Chapter 1 Questions

Paragraph 4. 乃是一个指称 I can’t make any sense out of this phrase. (It is a label? a designation?)

Paragraph 5. 跷着二郎腿…完全是一副流氓相. Totally/completely a bunch of hoodlums?? What does that have to do with raising your legs to sit on the bed? Does it just mean that his overall appearance was disreputable?

…手心是何等的发痒. ...how much it made her palms crawl (meaning she must have been itching to 打他一耳光, right?)

她有点神经质 Yellowbridge annotator translates 神经质 as sensibility, but it seems more likely to be sensitivity here, right?

Many thanks in advance for your help- and sorry to drag you back to chapter 1.

Kathy

Oh, and a dead ball occurs when the game stops for some reason (like at a penalty for breaking rules, or because someone kicked the ball away from the field). The ball will be given to some player according to certain rules, so that he can do his worst with it when the game restarts. I doubt that all this is relevant to the story of Wang Er.

Strange.. My text has no balls. It says "卫生员说抬不得，腰杆断了，一抬就死。我说腰杆好像没断，你们快把我括走。" and repeats "所以也不敢肯定我会不会一抬就死。" Maybe it is a very weird mistake in your edition?

Funny, after I wrote my bit, I consulted the Lin Yutang dictionary and found the chicken-dog thief saying, too. What it did not have is the part about the extramarital sex. The advantage of pooled knowledge! ：） The sentence about the broken back goes: 衛 生 員 說 抬 不 得，腰 桿 斷了，一 抬 就 死 球。 and afterwards Wang Er repeats the expression. This comes after the incident with the raging local mother, when Wang Er is coming to after passing out and before Chen Qingyang is called. My dictionary gives the literal translation of "dead ball" -- I think I must ask you what a dead ball is in some game -- it is not a matter of Chinese but of my lack of sports savvy. :-（

Traditional characters is no problem.

My dictionary has "偷鸡摸狗" = steal;engage in under-the-table dealings;engage in extramarital sex.

It also says that in "哪能容你们乱栽赃", the "栽赃" means "planting stolen goods", which seems to refer to something we have not heard about?

When I think about how much I usually buy at the supermarket, it seems that a months supply for two persons must be a heavy load.

I believed that you solved the hospital mystery.

I couldn't find "死球" in the text, and neither could my computer.. what is the whole sentence?

Marcel, two is a team and that's more than I usually have. Yes, let's just be stubborn. That is the only way I know with Chinese. :-) re your question: You obviously have invested much more energy in figuring out the ethnic surroundings of Wang Er than I ever did. Considering the fact that in the corral fight the "enemies" of the 知 青 are the local peasants, one might suppose that they are largely minority people. But I really do not know how the 漢 addition of 50 percent got to that area and when and from where. What makes you wonder? Do you think that there might be more animosity if there is ethnic difference?
What concerns the name of the main opponent, whose mom flattens Wang Er: one comes across such weird nicknames in China that I would not dare to draw a conclusion here, but again, maybe you have some background knowledge or interest which fuels your suspicion. Meanwhile I have found quite a few spots where I would have to hem and haw if called up to explain them. Here are two of them:

1. Why is the expression 死 球 chosen to describe Wang Er's certain death in case his spine is broken? Is it a sports term and what makes it fitting?
2. Why are the 知 青 accused of stealing chickens and 摸 狗 ? It can hardly mean "pet dogs on the head"-- unless this is a standard expression for lurking around a house with evil intentions.

Meanwhile I have given more thought and dictionary shuffling to
your former questions (the numbers refer to your post from Jan.25) and offer you my suggestions for trying on:

1. I have come to the conclusion that the "what gives you the right to make false accusations?" just refers to the 知 青 stealing chickens etc. Does this make sense?
2. I think he is talking about a wicker basket used to transport things on one's back --- there must be a special term for this in English but I can't find it . Anyway --the goods are bulging up and forming a peak above the rim. Horrible thought that Wang Er with his bad back should be carrying this load!
3. My understanding is that due to an epidemic in the hospital, the not yet infected patients were sent home -- to avoid further spreading-- and that 紛 紛, one after the other, the doctors went out to the camps to provide the necessary medicine/treatment. 上 門 seems to be "making home calls".
   Please -- you or any one: 請 教！！ Is it a problem that I am using traditional characters?

I don't think that we are completely alone, lets hope that someone returns to look after us. Anyhow, I'll stubbornly continue to study one chapter a week, so if you are with me, we are at least two..:)

I did a google search on 個 不 停 , and found lots of sentences where it means what you say.

Another thing: When people divide into two groups at the corral, are the local guys 汉 people, or are they mainly minority group people? The name 三闷儿 does not sound like a 汉 name to me, but what do I know.

Marcel, are we all alone here? I feel very uneasy about piping up in this silence with so many better people in the background--- actually I have been suspecting some kind of trouble with the system because the site has been quiet for so long. Anyway -- for what it is worth, here is my response to your questions as of now. 1) I interpret zhuo2, to wear, as the choice out of three different meanings of the character -- (my computer refuses to give it to me --- weird) : We were both still not wearing a fiber =were mother naked 2) this I see as "all clad in plastic" -- the condom is still in place. The plastic surprises me, too, I thought latex was the material of choice. But maybe latex would also be seen as man-made? 3)yes! 4)yes!!! But it had not struck me so far that he is not very good (adept or accurate or poetic?) at describing the girl. I will pay more attention in future. 5) Yes -- if she does not like sex, why did she go along? 9) a typo. My text has 那 天 夜 裡... 12) I have come across this on many occasions -- maybe it is colloquial --- something happens or is done 個 不 停 ﹣﹣the wind is blowing without stopping 14) that white wind bothers me too. I consulted all my dictionaries -- nothing. White is usually associated with clouds. So it is probably his poetic licence? For the rest of your queries I join you in the hope for the kind teaching of others --- and maybe, while I plough through the text once more, I may find more murky spots of my own.

Here we go again... notes on chapter 3:

1. 仍然是不着一丝 Maybe "There was one subject we did not discuss"?
2. 一身塑料 Sùliào is "plastic", but I dont understand what it means here.
3. 事毕我既愤怒又沮丧 Maybe "After it was over, I was angry and sad."?
4. I really like the descriptions of nature in this and in the preceding chapter. The stars and the dew. The outlook from the mountain. The fragrant flowers.. he describes it all much better that he describes 陈清扬. I wonder why.
5. 既然你不乐意，为什么要答应 Maybe "If you did not agree, why didn't you protest"?
6. 他说此地的规矩就是这样 To me this sounds like an attempt to avoid resposibility.
7. 就让寡妇来找我 Funny, he is using the widow as a torpedo. I suppose that the following events vindicates him. That widow is dangerous.
8. 哪能容你们乱栽赃 We haven't heard about this before, have we?
9. 那无夜里陈清扬把我送到医院 I don't understand why there's a 无 in this sentence.
10. 装得背篓里冒了尖 What is sticking out? Why?
11. 她懒懒地往椅子上一仰说 Is she facing up (仰)? Or is she talking to the chair (down)?
12. 旱季里浩浩荡荡的风刮个不停 What does 风刮个 mean? Why is there a 个 in here?
13. 大夫也纷纷下队去送医上门 Did the doctors leave, one after each other? Why does it mean that?
14. 陈清扬来找我时，乘着白色的风 That white wind again. Is it white because of the dust, beacuse of her white dress, or because of something else?
15. 我自己并不知道我走路是不回头的 is supposed to be evidence for the existence of 王二. Why?

I have been playing around with the free dictionary of the Chinese University of Hongkong (instead of working...) and am beginning to like it. Maybe someone of our group may find some use in it, too. Don't ask me how to handle it -- I am really just playing. But I impressed by the fact that it gave the translation for several of the expressions we were at a loss with here. If you google "CUHK LinYutang", you are there.

kigardensong and marcelbdt: Thank you for all the feedback! (Can you two accept the magic of technology which unites us here over Wang Er's ups and downs as a matter of fact? It blows me away...) Yes, marcelbdt, your translations seemed correct to me from the beginning despite the handicap of the typos. Thank you for confirming my dim suspicions re what we would probably have to translate as "dickhead". If you have time -- no hurry -- will you both -- I mean kigardensong, also - tell me a little about your favorite book dictionaries. I have to confess that so far yellowbridge has not convinced me -- which may be partly due to my computer-dumbness. It depends of course also on our respective mothertongues and knowledge of other languages to what degree we can recommend our resources to each other. I do use Chinese dictionaries, too, and maybe for classical purposes that is where one will end up-- however, I can get very frustrated when I have to look up too many words of the explanatory text... But now I must buckle down and read chapter 3!！

Liansuo> Hi! Thanks. I suspected the 累 -> 景 misprint, but was not sure. I did not see 于 -> 干 , but it makes a lot of sense. Then my translation of 16. is fairly OK after all?

Mm.. yes, my unrefined but expensive 文林 dictionary has "雞巴=penis". The other (Oxford) dictionary does not know about such vile matters.

There is some support for classical forms in the 文林 dictionary, but I don't think that you could use it as a dictionary for reading classical texts.

Kathy> I agree, you can't use the yellowbridge annotation as your only dictionary. The software often makes wrong guesses, but it does at least get some valid pinyin for each character. It sounds very reasonable to combine it with printed dictionaries.

Hi, Liansuo.

I like book dictionaries, too, and will be using mine in combination with yellowbridge. It seems the annotation just gives one possible interpretation of a character/phrase, and I'll want to look up all the possibilities. But it's just so great getting a whole paragraph transliterated into pinyin in an instance. It will really speed things up.

Marcelbdt,

It's magic!!! I went to the yellowbridge site, pasted in a sentence, and voila, it was annotated. As Gershwin wrote, "How long has this been going on?"

I was musing just last night about how much has changed since I studied Chinese - I was right on the cusp of computerization. In college, nobody had a computer, and the only people working with computers were the "geeks" working with the mainframes in refrigerated rooms. All through college I wrote my paper long-hand (the short ones) or on a typewriter, and of course looked up Chinese words in the dictionary I was still using yesterday.

By the time I went to grad school, no one would dream of being without a computer, but there was still no Internet, email or easy-to-use Chinese translation program.

Now I feel so liberated - and I'll be able to work through these chapters MUCH more quickly. WOOOOO HOOOOO! Yes, fun, I tend to lose sight of that. Although, I must admit I've always loved dictionary work--you get to flip through the pages, glance at other characters, scan the cognates and sample sentences straight out of 1970's China... Of course, it does slow down the seemingly simple task a reading a sentence, much less a novel.

Yesterday, I was happy to have framework and supportive community for reading Chinese, now the training wheels are off! Sorry to gush, but it's just like Christmas, birthday, and 4th of July all at once!

Thanks, too, runnerzj for your thoughts and interpretations, I'll try to get hold of 我的精神家园.

Gotta to to work now, but will check in later.

I have been struggling with my computer for a few days but now I am back and very excited to see all this activity. What a thrill after so many years of autodidactic plodding!
There are two tiny offerings to marcelbdt's set of questions from Jan.20th - simple typo clarifications:

1. 累 should be 景 16.于 should be 干 I am using oldfashioned book dictionaries and am basically happy with them -- except in cases like 雞 巴 where they are just too refined to offer a translation. (I am guessing ... and learning from Wang Xiao Bo directly). Would one of the electronic dictionaries you are recommending, marcelbdt, cover such things as well as fairly classical language? liansuo

Personally, I recommand his book 我的精神家园 to you, in which there are many short articles, which might be more suitable a way to get to know his ideas better.

Later we will hear more about exactly what Wang told Chen on this occasion.

Kathy, you should use some electronic dictionary for helping you to look things up. This makes things much easier, and above all more enjoyable. We are supposed to be doing this for fun, aren't we?

The best dictionaries still cost money (I've got two of those), but the ChinesePera kun add-on for the firefox browser and http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/annotator.php go a long way for free. There are others.

In this paragraph he says that if he'd wanted to console her it wouldn't have been difficult, he could have used logic to prove that she wasn't a "broken shoes." Instead, he says (in summary) he specifically chose to say that she is without a doubt a "broken shoes": 但是我偏说，陈清扬就是破鞋，而且这一点毋庸置疑。Did he say this directly to her? And I am right in understanding that the action in the first paragraph follows/overlaps that in the second?

--- Did he say this directly to her? I cannot tell if he says this directly to her. In fact 但是我偏说，陈清扬就是破鞋 means but I just insist that she is a broken shoe without any reasonable analysis.

Hi, all.

Let me try to answer this.

I am not the best person around here to answer your question about 某一个人 and 一个某人, but my gut feeling is that 一个某人 emphasises "one", so that the sentence means "at least one man whom she has stolen".

Basically marcelbdt is right.

--- 某一个人 is a commom daily phrase, which emphasises there is someone unknown.

一个某人 is a very amusing way of expression, which might be gramatically wrong. But here Wang xiao'bo showed his humor by this means. It's exactly his unique writing style.Like marcelbdt said, 一个某人 emphasises "one", i.e. there does exist such people. Anyway, it always made me laugh whenever I read it.

Marcelbot,

Thanks for the warm welcome, helpful hints, and responses to my questions. I, too, would pay for a legal text if I knew where/how. Meanwhile, I've cut and pasted chapters 1-4 and will slowly being working my way through.

I've been away from Chinese for long enough to have lost most of my character recognition, which means A LOT of dictionary work for me. But the interpretive exchanges are great, and I hope the vocabulary lists will continue - they're a big help.

Thanks for getting this started, bokane!

More soon.

Great! Another reader of chinese literature!!!

You can get the full text from the site http://www.cnnovels.com/xdwx/wangxiaobo/hjsd/001.htm, by cleverly replacing the 001 in the adress by appropriate chapter numbers.

This is "probably" not "entirely" legal, but I don't know how to get a legal electronic copy of the text. If it exists and someone hints me to where I can find it, I would certainly buy it.

As you say, there is overlapping in the two sections. It is descibed twice that 陈清扬 visits the narrator, whose name as we will find out is 王二. The story is in principle told in linear time: we follow the story as it happens. But it is also full of flash-backs and flash-forwards.

In my opinion the conclusion that 陈清扬就是破鞋 is a flash forward. If you read on, you will be enlightend, but you cannot understand it completely yet.

I am not the best person around here to answer your question about 某一个人 and 一个某人, but my gut feeling is that 一个某人 emphasises "one", so that the sentence means "at least one man whom she has stolen".

Hello, all. It's great to find this group, and I'd love to join in on the discussion and weekly readings. (I've never really read Chinese literature - except in very small chunks in college, so this may be beyond me). I read through the only two paragraphs I found at the top of this discussion, and have a few questions about that text. It's really great to have the translations for individual words and occasionally whole sentences. THANK YOU!

It's clear that marcelbdt has read ahead (and maybe others?). Should we all be accessing the full novel, or will we go a chapter (or chunk) a week?

I can't imagine the two paragraphs above are all of Chapter 1 - but I do assume they're the beginning of the book, right? Is there text somewhere for the rest of Chapter 1 or for Chapter 2 on this site?

Questions about Paragraph 1 text:

1.则起码有一个某人为其所偷. I've only ever seen the construction 某一个人, and here it's 一个某人. Are they interchangeable or is there a difference in meaning?

1. In this paragraph he says that if he'd wanted to console her it wouldn't have been difficult, he could have used logic to prove that she wasn't a "broken shoes." Instead, he says (in summary) he specifically chose to say that she is without a doubt a "broken shoes": 但是我偏说，陈清扬就是破鞋，而且这一点毋庸置疑。Did he say this directly to her? And I am right in understanding that the action in the first paragraph follows/overlaps that in the second?

Many thanks in advance.

Kathy

Thanks for all help!

I feel that I am 抛砖引玉的..:)

Bokane, maybe you could make a dummy lesson "chapter three", so that we can post questions and comments on chapter three there? I intend to get there in a week or so. This lesson is getting pretty long.

Whoa -- I missed all the activity here. Welcome, relrel and runnerzj, and thanks for the help. A couple more quick notes, while I procrastinate:

直不愣登 -- 不愣登 here is actually just a meaningless sound. It's a term used in Beijing dialect (and elsewhere, I believe -- I've seen similar formulations from Shanghainese and Northeastern writers if memory serves) after an adjective to give the meaning "extremely" adj. Very colloquial and usually never written down -- hence the lack of good characters to write it. It's analogous to 里吧叽 in 傻里吧叽.

泡汤 -- this is a colloquial term meaning "to fall through" or "amount to nothing." Googling it turns up a nice usage in a Xinhua headline: 抽支烟36元打的费泡了汤乘客敬烟要拒绝 -- "One cigarette and your 36 yuan bus fare is totally wasted -- If other passengers offer you a cigarette, you have to turn them down."

你走了我们给你赶牛哇？做你娘的美梦！-- "[You think that if] you go, we'll herd the cows for you? You're motherfucking dreaming!" (你娘的 is exactly the same as 你妈的. Off the top of my head, I can only think of usages of 美梦 where it means a totally unrealistic dream.)

江湖 -- I hate translating this term. Off the top of my head: he's using it here alongside his other reference to Timely Rain from 'Outlaws of the Marshes,' and it's very much part of the "honor among thieves" ethos. I'll have to check Chapter 2 once I get a chance and make sure that he's not using it in some other context, since there are a number of different ways of using it.

Thanks for the suggestion on text highlighting, Bazza -- I should've though of that. Will correct, and I'll try to start putting up lessons more regularly starting tomorrow. I guess I'll continue to go on until the end of Chapter 1, after which I'm not sure if we should continue, since it's copyrighted material and all that. Do keep asking questions about later chapters, though -- at the very least, we can turn this into a nice reference for other foreign readers of the book.

relrel -- Wang's writing style is mostly very colloquial, but it does reflect his strong grounding in Chinese and foreign literature. There isn't an awful lot of Classical Chinese in this, but it does make the odd appearance. As for whether or not Classical Chinese shows up a lot in modern works: yes, depending on how broadly you define Classical Chinese. Usually it turns up as purple prose and botched allusions.

"可一听说及时雨的大名" Is "及时雨" a name I should know?

---Yes, 及时雨 is the name of a important person in the novel 水浒传.

"哪怕我是个卑鄙小人也不背叛" : "哪怕 ...也.." should be "Even if... still.."

--- You are right.

"我的话也半真不假" Maybe this should be "我的话也半真半假"? If not, what is the function of the first "半"?

--- 半真不假: this phrase has not grammatical error. In fact, its meaning is the same as 半真半假。But it is usually more oral than the latter in cartain cases.

"所交到的朋友不过陈清扬等二三人而已" I suggest: "I could only offer friendship to 陈清扬 and at most two or three others."

--- basically it's right.

"你知道自己在于什么吗？" Maybe "You do know what it's about, don't you?"

--- Can't you be aware of what you are doing? In fact here it is used to criticize someone who does do well.

"你们姐夫舅子合伙搞我" This is quite confusing to me - I understand that 姐夫 is sisters husband, 舅子 is wife's brother. I assume that the speaker could have a sisters husband, but definitely not a wife's brother. And "wife's brother of sisters husband" sounds like an extremely complicated way of saying "me", which is probably not what he intends to say anyway. Maybe he is saying "You are ganging up against me like a man and his brother in law"?

Let me try to answer this question.

Literally, marcelbdt is right. 姐夫is sister's husband, 舅子 is wife's brother. But here it is not this way. 姐夫舅子 combined together indicates some people who have similar opinions are on one side against the other side together, especially refers to people who are relative. If try to explain this in Chinese, we can use 串通一气 to subsititute 姐夫舅子.

Hi, marcelbdt did a wonderful work. It's so much fun to learn that there is a forum like this. I was once a fan of Wang xiaobo. His style is so special that it easily attracted my attention 10 years ago. Well, I think I can probably be of help if you meet any difficulty in reading this novel. Honestly, I myself have some difficulty as well, but mainly it is about the content, not the word.

Hi relrel!

It's great if you have comments or questions on chapter 1 - I think I understand most of it now, so I might be able to help you where you are stuck...

Another batch of questions on chapter 2, taken from http://www.cnnovels.com/xdwx/wangxiaobo/hjsd/002.htm Some of these are sentences I cannot figure out at all, for others I offer a translation, but would like to check if others believe it. Any comments are great! And if anyone has any questions I can answer, I will do my best.

1. 白色的风 - how can a wind be white?

2. 按他的逻辑，我身上这个通红通红，直不愣登 - What does the "直不愣登" mean here?

3. 就如我之存在本身 - "like my very existence"?

4. 戽鱼 - I am not sure how about how the guy is doing his fishing, in particular the role of the 坝 in this. My guess is that he just keeps the fish he catches alive behind his dam?

5. 两个累颇族孩子 - This could be the Jingpo nationality (景颇族), but why is there a 累 in there? Maybe 累颇 is a tribe of 景颇, or a similar but different people. Anyhow, it seems to me that we are in Déhóng Dǎizú Jǐngpōzú zìzhìzhōu (德宏傣族景颇族自治州) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DehongDaiandJingpoAutonomous_Prefecture. If this is true, about half the people living here are 汉, and the rest are mostly either 傣族 or 景颇族 (according to the wiki).

6. "烂泥横飞" Are the rascals throwing the mud at 王二? Why? If I were them, I would simply run away.

7. "若干砍草皮打的坝，哪个鸡巴敢说不牢？" I am guessing that 若干 can mean "So many", and the whole sentence "I have used so many turfs to build this dam, who the fuck dares say that it isn't strong?" But I might be wrong.

8. "鱼全泡了汤" Maybe 泡了汤 just means "got away"? On the other hand, there is a huge amount of water in this sentence, so perhaps 泡了汤 means "swam away"?

9. "你们姐夫舅子合伙搞我" This is quite confusing to me - I understand that 姐夫 is sisters husband, 舅子 is wife's brother. I assume that the speaker could have a sisters husband, but definitely not a wife's brother. And "wife's brother of sisters husband" sounds like an extremely complicated way of saying "me", which is probably not what he intends to say anyway. Maybe he is saying "You are ganging up against me like a man and his brother in law"?

10. "你走了我们给你赶牛哇？做你娘的美梦！” Another of those mystery sentences. "After you left, we will herd the cows? Make your mother's sweet dreams?!" I bet 5 RMB that there is some sense in this, but I did not find it..:)

11. "江湖 " are certain people... I am not sure exactly what kind. However, it seems that 王二 is borrowing the idea of "伟大友谊" from books like "水浒传". I haven't read it, but I believe that it is written for boys of all ages. Maybe "江湖 " is a term from that book?

12. "可一听说及时雨的大名" Is "及时雨" a name I should know?

13. "哪怕我是个卑鄙小人也不背叛" : "哪怕 ...也.." should be "Even if... still.."

14. "我的话也半真不假" Maybe this should be "我的话也半真半假"? If not, what is the function of the first "半"?

15. "所交到的朋友不过陈清扬等二三人而已" I suggest: "I could only offer friendship to 陈清扬 and at most two or three others."

16. "你知道自己在于什么吗？" Maybe "You do know what it's about, don't you?"

Hi marcelbdt! I just read the first paragraph and am intrigued...=) I've been wanting to read some contemporary lit. I'd love to follow along with things, although I can't say I'll be ready for chapter 2 next week! (what about the rest of ch 1?) I'm also curious if there is much more usage of classical vocab and grammar in this book. Is it common for contemporary lit to have classical allusions? I guess it will be interesting to see it as it comes up. I've taken classical chinese so am somewhat familiar w/ the basics, but haven't seen it outside the context of old texts! thanks for all your work so far!

Just a suggestion, but it would be useful if the words explained below were highlighted in the paragraph itself.

Thanks for your answer! It did clear things up!

If you don't mind spending your work time on helping me, I'll return with questions about chapter 2 next week.

Hi, marcelbtt -- a quick response, as I am technically supposed to be working now :p --

1 - I'm not sure here, actually -- my history is fairly weak. The groups sent down would have been comprised of 知青 ('educated youth,' sometimes translated as 'urblings') from the cities, but I don't know whether or not they would have all been from the same place. To be sure, they were set very much apart from the locals -- as becomes clear later in the novel.

2- 她魂不守舍,几乎连自己是谁都不知道了 -- this can be analyzed as 她 [魂不守舍, 几乎 [连自己是谁]都不知道了] -- that is, "She was utterly discombobulated, as if she didn't even know who she was anymore."

3 - 多了 is just "plus a" or "with another" -- that is, compared to the way she had looked before, she had put on a pair of sandals.

4 - This is a colloquial term in Beijing (or maybe just general northern) dialect -- I believe it's a typo here; I've seen it written as 琢磨, 捉摩 and 捉摸. As for why it should have this meaning -- who knows. Most likely it originated as a spoken word, and existing characters were selected to fit it later.

5 - 黑 here just means something like "tan and leathery" -- whether from working in the fields or just general age and decrepitude.

6 - 上面 here is referring to his upper lip. (At least I think so, going by memory -- i don't have the text in front of me at the moment)

7 - Yes, this is a typo for 耙.

8 - Yes, he's saying that it would be easy to do it -- but then goes on to note that his skills are limited mostly to simple sophistry.

9 - 穿 here is as in "he would issue me small shoes to wear."

10 - Nope -- 斤 is still a unit of weight, so he's talking about the total quantity of mice. I'm not sure how many this would work out to be, but the mice in my old apartment were small enough critters that I imagine two pounds would equate to a pretty considerable number of the varmints.

11 - This sentence works out to "Furthermore, if the captain had dared to piss off (惹得起 -- 惹 here meaning to provoke) Luo Xiaosi, then he [i.e., the captain] wouldn't have set his sights on me."

12 - No kidding. I remember being surprised that this was supposed to be a lighthearted little anecdote when I first read the book.

13 - "I rather inclined toward proving that we weren't innocent" -- i.e., that rather than trying to prove their innocence, they just embrace their guilt and have sex.

14 - This bears a slightly longer explanation than I can give at the moment, but the quick and easy answer is that Wang is having fun switching registers.

15 - I think so, yes.

Great! Do you have any thoughts on the following?

About Chapter 1

I am reading a version I found at http://www.cnnovels.com/xdwx/wangxiaobo/hjsd/001.htm. I am not sure about its legal status, I would pay for a legal electronic version if I knew how to get it.

Inspired by 王二, I will try to be ridiculously methodical and number my problems.

1. Both 王二 and 陈清扬 are from 北京. Does this set them apart from the others, or would the entire group of people in the far Yunnan mountains be from the same city?

2. " 她魂不守舍,几乎连自己是谁都不知道了" I assume the meaning of the last is something like "she almost did not know any longer herself what she was ", but I'm not sure that I get the analysis right. Is 自己 subject for both 是谁 and 不知道? What about the 连? It makes sense if 连 applies to 不知道, but can it apply to 是谁? Another interpretation would be that the 她 from the previous sentence is still the subject of 知道, and what she does not even know is "自己是谁".

3. "脚上也多了一双拖鞋" What does "多" mean here?

4. "我就开始捉模" might be "I was getting ideas", but why does "捉模" mean that?

5. As 王二 is making the speach for the prosecution in the case of 破鞋, he says that people expect "就该面色黝黑". What does this mean? Dark from working on the fields in the sun, or something else?

6. "上面沾了碎纸和烟丝" What does "上面" do here? Does it mean "even worse.."? But, at this time, smoking was not so bad, was it?

7. "好像被猪八戒筑了两粑" I might not know the story here.. I do remember that 猪八戒's weapon of choice was a 耙, could this be a typo?

8. "假如我想证明她不是破鞋，就能证明她不是破鞋，那事情未免太容易了。" It seems he says that it would be easy to prove? I don't think so. What is going on?

9. "小鞋穿" The boss is making trouble.. but what's the point of 穿 here?

10. "二斤耗子" Two pounds of mice?? I did not know that mice come in pounds.. Or is "斤" a secret measure word for mice, so that we have two murdered mice here?

11. "何况队长要是能惹得起罗小四，也不会认准了是我" Does this mean that if the captain had suspected 罗小四, then 罗小四 would not have tried to blame 王二? I can't force the sentence to do quite that, but I can't make any other sense of it.

12. "天知道它跑到哪儿去了" I feel sorry for the dog... Oh well.

13. "我倒倾向于证明自己不无辜" Meaning what? That is would be easier to convince people of 2) then of 1) ? Pass him an 耳光.

14. The logic syllogisms are certainly parody, but parody of what? It would be beating a dead horse to make fun of classical chinese philosophy in 1990, wouldn't it?

15. I have the impression that he is setting the scene in the following way: Evidence for the defense has to be completely iron clad, but on the other side, incriminating hearsay is accepted at face value. If people say that you are guilty, then you are guilty. This would conceivably be in the spirit of 文革?

3.

marcelbtt -- Sure! I haven't had the time to develop proper lessons lately, but I'm glad you got interested in the story. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Actually, after reading your lesson here, I got interested in the story, and downloaded it from baidu. I have read most of it by now, but there are many difficult points. Maybe it would help if I knew the political and geographical background better. Would you be interested in discussing it chapter for chapter?

Mmm.. I wonder what will come out of this. What exactly does he mean when he says that the needles had barbs?..:) Only an exaggeration to stress that they have been reused and were wearing out?