China's History not in the West's History...?

[quote="jbradfor"][quote="Lie-Hap-Po"]The Tibet question is between the Tibetans and the Chinese.[/quote]

Or Netherlands and the Germans during WWII? Once Germany took over the land should other countries have just decided that was an internal affair?

[I'm not saying CP should get political; all I'm saying is that saying it's OK because it's an internal affair is cowardice.][/quote]

That is exactly what the USA did.

And if the Japanese had not attack them, they wouldn't have helped the Netherlands.

Also the situation is different because the Netherlands is one country, one people that had lived all history, and one language.

China is one country, 56 Nationalities and numerous languages.

The Chinese have a rightful claim on Tibet.

The Tibetans have a rightfil claim on Tibet.

And other nationalities like the Luoba also have a rightful claim on Tibet.

The Luoba like the Chinese rule and disliked the Tibetan rule,

because the Tibetans used the Luoba as slaves back then.

The present Dalai Lama is a very learned and gentle and honest man and in a free Tibet he would certainly give the Luoba a free Luoba state.

But the Tibetan Noble families held the real power in Tibet in the past and enslaved the common Tibetans and the other minorities and will do so if there is a free Tibet again.

The Dalai Lama would be powerless to stop this.

The above was my answer to the response of Jbradfor on the Cpod forum

LostinAsia, I don't think the histories of Xinjiang and Tibet are particularly sensitive topics. Xinjiang was originally incorporated as part of China 2,000+ years ago during the Han Dynasty and has pretty much remained so for most of its history. I think its fair to say that Tibet "joined" China during the Yuan dynasty 800 years ago under Kublai Khan, but has been much more restive.

BTW, if you want to know a little more about Tibet, I recommend giving Wiki a pass... too much partisanship.

I remember reading "My Land and My People" by the Dalai Lama in my youth. Obviously that is by definition a biased book, but it struck me how differenciated and educated it was written. Not your classical piece of polit propaganda.

But well, I was 17 those days, and easy to impress. I might view it differently now.

Anyway, that guy surely knows how to gather support in the west. However you see the matter, he surely is a great lobbiest for his people. Other minorities in China (or elsewhere) do not have that sort of visibility and positive coverage. Especially not if they are muslim...

tvan, I can't disagree with what you wrote. I recall reading John Avedon's "In Exile in the Land of Snows", and thinking (even then, as a starry-eyed undergraduate) that it was a stirring read, but so pro-Tibetan and emotional/romantic in tone that I could never bring myself to take it at face value. That (legendary) book even manages to make the rowdy brawls between monks from the "Yellow Hat" sect and monks from the "Red Hat" sect seem almost noble. For somebody like me, who is only familiar with the Theravada (Southeast Asian) traditions of Buddhism which are practised in South- and Southeast Asia, this was a bit of a shock. Oh well, live and let live...

tvan, you're telling me (about sensitivity of politics)... there's a presidential election here in Taiwan next week, and I'd LOVE to find out what my students think about it, but I don't dare ask! There are lots of little sensitivities about Mainlanders vs long-term Taiwanese vs aboriginal vs Hakka and I can't usually tell who's who. Better just to avoid it--even a casual mention of politics in the classroom casts a chill.

The election's quieter this time around... last time, there were trucks with banners and loudspeakers everywhere.

I really need to learn more about Tibet and XinJiang history. I have little to no idea how they wound up part of China. Uh... depending on sensitivities here, that may NOT be a topic for others to answer.

Changye, thanks for coming into this. Some of the topics here must be complicated for you to talk about.

Regarding Changye's mention of the Vietnam incursion, that was partly to stop the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia against China's regional ally, the Khmer Rouge.

On the NY Times article regarding the current Tibet imbroglio, I can't resist pointing out that the Dalai Llama must have the best publicists in the world. His image is one of benevolent nonviolence ala Gandi; yet his followers are anything but. In fact, Tibetan Buddhism has a long history of militarism (don't tell Richard Gere).

Finally, I never discuss politics in Asia unless I know the other party extremely (extremely!!!!) well. Being the only white guy in a Chinese bar fight... bad, very bad!

wow, quite a discussion, alot of it is way above me.

I know that the history I learnt at school mainly consisted of Australian hsitory (I am Australian) which is the way I would expect all countries to be. Sure, we learnt about Acient Egypt a little and other things, but there are so many topics that could be covered in history that it would have to be a cumpolsory subject all through high school to touch even a small percentage of them.

I dont recall ever learning anything about China at all, to the point that, in hindsight when people ask what did you expect of China or something like that I reply saying I didnt have any expectations. I had never met a Chinese person or eaten Chinese food in my life. I didnt know how to say hello or anything. The only thing I knew is that they have a communist government, and didnt (still dont really) understand that.

Auntie,

you would be surprised how much some people can resist education. Besides: Maybe it helps that in Europe we don't care as much as East Asia about "losing face".

Let me dare to step even further, and I know I am pretty alone with my opinion. But I am personally convinced that the notion of a "nation" in its prevailant form is atavistic - for me it usually runs down to a refined form of tribalism. I am also reacting deeply sceptical if not outright allergic towards most forms of "patriotism".

Hi wildyaks, going by this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/technology/tech-china-tibet-internet.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I think that changye and I have probably offended more than a few Chinese people, and I'm half expecting to be hit over the head soon. Eek.

This is so interesting. Thanks auntie68 and tvan for sharing your family histories. And for Changye to speak your mind.

I enjoy reading this thread, mainly because people have refrained from hitting each other over the head. History and politics are such complex things.

Henning, I have long-standing German family/business friends, including their children, young ones who are in their twenties. Germany has the moral stature to take its place in the "community of nations", because the country has never, ever (not since WWII) wavered from the line that German war atrocities were inexcusable. And your education system is geared to respect that. It's a very different context from the situation in two important Asian countries, where there is no admission of moral responsibility for past mistakes, or even very serious war crimes. And this is borne out in the education systems of these countries, sadly.

I regularly get into trouble when I point out that I strongly beliefe Chinese and Japanese cultures are still (and despite all differences) much more closely related than any of the two sides would like to admit (being a layman, though, and judging from a purely subjective standpoint).

On the other hand, for the west the mutual issues between China and Japan are actually rather helpful. Imagine an east Asian version of the EU led by Japan and China, maybe even joined by the "Tiger" countries. Now that would be an economic superpower, blowing away all NAFTAs and EUs.

Germany is guilty of some inexcusable atrocities in Europe that go beyond the imaginable, yet Europe has nevertheless come to grips anyway and forged the European Union. Maybe this was fostered by Germanys geographical position in the midst of Europe - not being an island that could stay alone or be left alone. Issues are surely not "solved" here, but when I see how Japan is portrayed in China...

Speaking of "political football", I don't think there are any Asian countries that don't play that game. What is the necessity for top Japanese politicians to continue visiting the Yasukuni Shrine (sp.?), knowing full well how inflammatory it is, even though no member of the Japanese Imperial family has dignified the revised list of war heroes (dating only from the 1970s, I think?) with as much as a single visit. The problem is not with the "Japanese people" or the "Chinese people", I tell myself, but with politicians who purloin the very great suffering of their fellow compatriots, the very history of their own countries, to score goals in the game of political footbal. And it is so, so, sad when the ordinary people buy into it and gladly lend their services to these politicians for no charge.

No offense caused to me, changye, I share your feelings. I originally wanted to go further -- in my own post above -- by saying frankly that the Nanking Massacre issue had become a "political football", not merely that it had become emblematic. But I censored myself, and deleted those words. Now that you have written what you have written, my conscience makes me clarify my own words and show support.

Re: Tibet - I don't feel that people like Richard Gere have any moral authority to lecture to the Chinese people. But the PRC is going to learn some hard (but useful) life lessons in the common days, as tries to "manage" the fallout from the Tibet you-know-what. At this moment, I have no desire to watch any telecasts from the 2008 Summer Olympics, or to read any "news" regarding the Games.

As a Japanese, please let me say some words. Just like you said above, “the Rape of Nanjing” has already become a symbol for blaming and criticizing Japan in China. And I would like to point out that a symbol tends to be often exaggerated and exploited politically for many purposes, especially in an autocratic state like China and North Korea.

If my memory is correct, the number of Chinese victims in the second Sino-Japanese war, announced by 国民党, was about two million at first, and later it was revised to five million, and it was increased again by the CCP to twelve million, then twenty-one million in 1985, and finally thirty-five million by 江泽民. Next number, please!

Some anti-China Japanese satirically say that you might be able to obtain the latest (and largest) number if you add up all the death tolls in the war, the Cultural Revolution, and the disastrous Great Leap Forward movement in which twenty to fifty million people are said to have starved to death, although nobody knows the exact number.

Incidentally, is “the Tibet Massacre” also one of those Chinese civil wars, where Chinese people kill Chinese? I do not think China’s attitude toward the incident is very ideal. I hear the CCP denies atrocity claims in Tibet, and it seems that most Chinese people, including Internet generations, are not so interested in their own negative histories.

Furthermore, I am very surprised that the CCP regards their invasion to Vietnam as a punishment to the country. And of course, most Chinese do not care much about the Sino-Vietnam war. The Chinese government and its people seem to be able to become very ethical and moralistic only when they are talking about other guy’s negative histories.

Please do not take me wrong. I have no intention to justify or advocate Japan’s invasion to Asian countries. On the contrary, my reason and intellect always tell me that Japan should apologize more voluntarily and sincerely, but at the same time, my feelings say that I am already fed up with political exploitations, propagandas, and double standards.

I always feel ambivalent about this issue.

Sorry, no offense.

Auntie 68, when I stop by Singapore next time, I would love to come by and visit you and hear your stories on history. Very engaging :)

Auntie68, you grandfather worked for Zhou Enlai? Then he (your grandfather) was definitely with the branch of the party that put China's interests ahead of their own.

Auntie68, my father-in-law was on the opposite side from your grandfather. He was a colonel in the GuoMinDang/国民党/國民黨. As a graduate of Whampoa Daxue/黄埔军校/ 黃埔軍校, he fought first in Chiang KaiShek's Northern Expedition, then against the Communists, then against the Japanese, and finally against the Communists. In the end, he lost his first wife to the Japanese, his second wife to the Communists, and his third wife (and my wife's mother) to an anonymous pilot in Vietnam. Those two stories, his and your grandfather's, are quite common for the era. My own father's wartime experience, a mere three years in the navy, pales in comparison.

That bleak past certainly serves as a measure of the stunning progress China has since made. Still, I think that an occasional backwards glance is warranted.

tvan, what you wrote struck a chord with me. I sometimes ask myself if the gunboat diplomacy of the Opium Wars would have resulted in such humiliating defeats for China under the Qings, if Ming China had used its advanced technological capabilities to build up a "modern" navy.

What you've written is very explosive, though, as many Chinese suffer from a deep national inferiority complex based on being "bullied" by other nations.

My "China grandfather" was born in China in 1901. He was too young to have participated in the May 4th movement, but the ideals of that movement inspired him so deeply that he (i) became a Communist Party member in the late 1920s; (ii) abandoned his classical scholar education in order to study engineering; and (iii) studied English and German so that he could deal with foreigners on equal terms.

My grandfather did all of these things with the aim of "building China". After graduation, instead of working for foreign engineering firms or going abroad, he joined the army, where he served as a commissioned officer (as a military engineer), and worked with Zhou Enlai, who became his hero for the rest of his life.

Unfortunately, China was a country in the throes of self-destruction and chaos. By the middle of the 1930s, my grandfather had to flee from China because his family had received intelligence that the Kuomintang had a warrant out for his arrest based on his communist leanings.

So grandfather moved to Singapore, where he raised his family, built a successful engineering practice, and sent remittances back to China for sixty years. He kept a low profile because the climate in his adopted country was strongly anti-communist (this was during the Emergency, the bloody communist insurgency fought in the jungles and plantations of Malaya). Growing up, I assumed that he had left China to "escape from" the communists.

During the early 1970s, he was finally granted a visa to visit his cousins in China. In those days, Singapore only allowed its citizens to visit China when they were elderly, and (presumably) less likely to be activists bringing back communist ideas.

What my grandfather saw in China shocked him so deeply that nobody in the family was allowed to mention the word "China" again in his presence. I remember one thing he said, in English -- "China is finished. I will not return again", and the pain behind his words.

For a young child unused to seeing any kind of emotion from this stiff, poised, "China" grandfather, it was a shock. According to my eldest Uncle, who accompanied him on the trip home, my grandfather was shocked to see his cousins, who were university professors, living in conditions of absolute squalor due to the Cultural Revolution; there were no books in their hut (all the books had been burned), and instead of furniture, they had discarded cardboard boxes to serve as their tables and their beds. Worst of all, he was stunned by how much "baksheesh" he had to pay to local party officials, who supposedly served the same Communist party that had shaped so much of his thinking, his actions.

Is there any point to this? How I wish that my idealistic "China grandfather' could have lived to see what Chinese people have achieved today. And maybe a small part of me feels sad that Chinese people made it impossible for China to benefit from any part of my grandfather's good intentions, his idealistic zeal, even his engineering skills, which he had acquired "for China".

furyougaijin, you'll get no argument from me on the futility of apologizing for old wars; however, that opinion is, obviously, far from universal. As auntie68 says above, the Rape of Nanjing has become a symbol.

Still, I guess I keep coming back to the point that, when you consider China's history of terrible civil wars, the people most responsible for the deaths of Chinese are other Chinese. Sadly, you still hear that echo in today's discussions of "reunification".

" And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Hello furyougaijin. Your question was directed to tvan, but I have a question meant for you: How do you think that the British should apologize apologize for the Opium Wars? They've already returned HK to China, with interest.

In my humble opinion, the difficult issue of the Nanking Massacre does need some kind of reconciliation process, if only because it has become an emblem of sorts. Auschwitz was only one of the many gruesome extermination complexes established by the Third Reich, yet you would be hard-put to find a well-educated person for whom the very sound of the word "Auschwitz" did not resonate in a special way.

For "apologists", the impact of the Nanking Massacre on the Chinese soul can -- and should -- be reduced by trying to compare it with the Opium Wars, and concluding that the Opium Wars caused greater harm to China more.

But what are we talking about here? How does a decent human being justify the kind of barbaric slaughter and rapine that is being alleged? I do regret that the Nanking Massacre seems to have been hijacked by the cause of "Chinese nationalism". I love Japanese culture, but have also heard, first-hand, from survivors of the Japanese Occupation of Singapore, some very disturbing tales of Japanese soldiers raping women and bayonetting babies, seemingly for the fun of it. I don't feel obliged to take sides, but this seems like the kind of open wound that needs to be closed.

@tvan

Why should Opium wars affect present-day middle class?! They don't. But they are a fine example of the British (and more broadly - Western) colonial policy. And did we hear Britain apologise? No? So why are we asking Japan to do so?

One way of understanding China's "geographical integrity" is the Chinese mentality: If it wasn't recognizably "Chinese", they weren't interesting in ruling it (in the absence of clear geopolitical reasons; how long has Tibet mattered so much to China? Maybe only as long as modern India and modern China have been disputing that sensitive border area). In fact, in Ming times, it was even illegal for Chinese people to emigrate from the Mainland, and it's not difficult to guess why China's merchant navy was so underdeveloped, a factor which put the country at a lethal disadvantage vis-a-vis the Portuguese, the Spaniards, the English, and the Dutch, who were busy carving up the "New World" and gaining power and influence.

In contrast, I get the impression that for the Romans, the entire world was waiting to be civilized by Rome. Even in the UK, where I lived briefly as a child, evidence of Roman culture was everywhere: Towns with names ending in "-chester" -- Eg. Chichester, Winchester, Chester -- or in "-ex" -- Eg. Wessex, Sussex -- were all originally Roman towns. And many years later, when I was being driven through the countryside between Rome and Ravello, I saw EXACTLY the same kind of roman aqueducts that I had seen every day as a child in Colchester, Essex. Such kinds of experiences really remind one of the connections between any one little corner of the world, and the rest of the world. It makes the "little corner" seem less unique.

auntie68, I'm a big history buff also. Of course, Latin never achieved the universal acceptance in the European subcontinent that Chinese did in East Asia. Maybe that language is why, no matter how many times it flies apart, China always seems to come back together within more or less the same borders.

tvan, I find it fascinating. It's interesting to compare how China governed its vast territory with a common written language and the civil service system (which was quite meritocratic), with the way Rome governed ITS far-flung provinces with a common language, a system of roads and waterworks, a common currency, its legal system, and of course a very distinctly "Roman" way of thinking which bound people's hearts and minds to the empire no matter where they were geographically. Then you get ancient Mauryan India, where Greek and Roman culture was highly respected (ambassadors were going back and forth), and laws and concepts of kingship were codified much as they were in ancient Rome...

Don't get me started, I love that kind of stuff!

Auntie68, the juxtaposition of Roman and Chinese history sounds like a fascinating idea, and an example which would provide useful instruction in both Eastern and Western classrooms.

LostinAsia, I, too, think that what she is studying is amazing, but it really is tough for the kids at first. And even for the teachers, who only 4 or 5 years ago were only teaching, and testing, facts.

Imagine being shown the town plans of an excavated settlement and having to make inferences about its importance, with reasons. And then being shown the town plans of another settlement several 1,000km away, which is laid out in exactly the same way, and being asked to infer something from that too.

These are tough questions because the kids really have to use their brains to realize that evidence of a ancient city being laid in a grid pattern may indicate a degree of urban planning, which itself indicates a relatively high level of civilisation. Or if they are told that the settlement supported 50,000 people, and they can see that there isn't a lot of farmland around, they could infer that trade may have been quite highly-developed. And so on...

I totally agree with you that it's important to know the history of your part of the world first. In my young student's course, I see that in this first year the only things she will learn about the Romans are calculated to lead her to reflect on how Roman civilisation -- based in tiny Campagnia -- was so expansive, whereas Han China, vast as it is, was always confined within firm boundaries. Next year, when she begins studying the beginnings of "world trade"/ colonisation, I think they will link it with the differences in culture/ ethos between the Pax Romana and what you could call the "Pax Sinica". phew!

auntie68, what your family friend is studying sounds fantastic. I'd never even thought of an Ashoka / Qin Shihuang comparison, but now it seems fascinating. (and thanks to ChinesePod for teaching me a name beyond "The first emperor of Qin").

For teachers and curriculum planners, it's often hard to see what's going to be relevant. As an example, Gertrude Bell and the British in Mesopotamia was something of a forgotten historical backwater ten years ago--yet lessons from that misadventure would have been incredibly useful in our current decade. Conversely, I spent months on the Russian Revolution in high school, yet now White Revolutions and Red Revolutions seem arcane.

The Rape of Nanjing and attitudes towards it are crucial to understanding China's modern relationship with Japan, just as the Holocaust is crucial to understanding Israel and the modern Middle East. In an odd way, the Sino-Japanese war is "more important" now than it was thirty or forty years ago because legacies of that conflict are now globally significant, whereas before they were more of a "local" issue.

I guess my major concern with history-as-it's-often-taught is that we often aren't aware of how small our own corner of the world is. I'm a Canadian of British descent--I SHOULD know more about the Greeks & Romans than about Maurya India or Han China. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is that we'll start to think that our own corner is the center of the world (ahem, **中**國), rather than just a small part of a much much larger canvas.

And in the heat of this STUPID discussion about HISTORY we forget the STORIES of all the the people living in the PRESENT

furyougaijin, how do the opium wars affect China's middle class today? As an American, how do they affect me at all? Does that mean I/we shouldn't bother studying them?

On the Rape of Nanjing, I find it interesting that it receives so much focus. Chiang KaiShek killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 500,000 to 1,000,000 Chinese when he broke the Yellow River dikes in 1938 to slow the Japanese advance... his own people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood

@ calkins

And why would anyone care to dispute the details except for the Japanese?! But in fact, even that is not entirely true. There has been massive criticism of Chang's book and a lot of it came from history professors based in the US. A very large section of the Wikipedia article on the book actually describes the criticism rather well but is very much focused on the fact that Chang (who killed herself in 2004) was not a historian but a political activist. Japanese sources actually refute a lot of very specific details. And photos rarely are a conclusive proof of anything, especially, when they were taken such a long time ago - in fact, there is a claim that 11 photos in the book are fake or simply mis-captioned.

I'm far from suggesting that nothing at all happened. But instead of focussing on this particular fact in history (with a clear political agenda in mind), it would be more useful to put this in perspective of similar events - and did anyone notice the figures of civilian deaths in Iraq published by the European press in the recent months?! The truth is, no discussion can be entirely free from politics and there is an infinite number of ways to interpret any particular event.

Anyway, I suggest we abandon this subject as somewhat irrelevant to a friendly language forum.

Back to the GENERAL discussion on Chinese history, I tend to agree with Mandomikey: current events and global economics should not be mixed with Chinese Middle Ages, so to speak. Little of practical value is to be learnt about today's Chinese middle class and manufacturing power from studying Sino-Mongolian wars of 800 years ago or the great deeds of the Song dynasty generals, etc.

On the other hand, the history of Opium wars is highly relevant to a Western student and as such should retain its place in the general curriculum.

Henning... thanks for your feedback. This thread has many times bounced back and forth between "China's LOOONG history" (as Rich referred to in the original post) and current events and present day global economics. I'll give you that history begins the minute tomorrow's headlines are printed onto paper... however I was responding to the former, those asking "why were we robbed as children of Chinese history?"

Having rethunk my last post, I would have substituted the African continent (sub-Sahara) for Bangladesh (too obscure). Arguably, Africa had a much larger impact on the West than did China, however study of ancient African civilizations and the later colonial wars are covered even less than China's dynasties and forays into socialism. Getting back to the point, as for historical relevance towards the present, I personally wouldn't say the Chinese got a bad shake in terms of amount of coverage. Granted, the Chinese are exerting more influence now with their manufacturing and rising midle class, but I still maintain that the fundamental fabric of Western culture owes less to them than to other cultures (including the Greeks, Romans, and even many American Indians tribes).

I imagine there were probably a large number of Jewish refugees in Shanghai, same as most every other large metropolitan center in the world...hence supporting the above argument why the Holocaust is more widely known or understood than the Rape of Nanjing...more survivors to tell the story. It feels wrong comparing the two in some sort of macabre popularity contest, but it was just an attempt to explain why one is more commonly known than the other (check Calkin's post about 6 posts up from here).

Yong Ho's "China: An Illustrated History" is a little book that gives the reader an overview of China's history. He walks the reader through the highlights of each dynastic period. Check out

http://www.amazon.com/China-Illustrated-History-Histories/dp/0781808219/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205381746&sr=1-14

The first half of Sterling Seagrave's "Lords of the Rim" is about Chinese History and it lays the foundation for Sterling's story on the successful Chinese in Southeast Asia. I don't necessarily agree with Sterling's analysis, but the first-half of the book contains some of the stories my father had told me in the past.

The last book I'll recommend is Harrison Salisbury's "The New Emperors: China in the Era of Mao and Deng."

Hello henning. I think I know what you are getting at wrt "overarching frameworks". Although there is no such a thing as a "middle age" in China, I think that having explored critically the way -- for better and for worse -- elements of Buddhism were incorporated into Ashoka Maurya's system of government (including his foreign policy), or China's policies and attitudes towards "barbarians", is not such a bad starting-point to begin considering and weighing -- say -- the Crusades, concepts of knightly honour, and the role of religion in shaping European history. The factors which kept "European" states fragmented during that period -- as well as the enduring alliances (eg. in the Crusades) which arose -- are interesting to compare with the factors which from time to time would tend to pull vast Chinese and Indian empires apart. Isn't history fascinating when we can keep the ideology out of it?

Auntie,

I like that approach very much. Indeed, the variety of examples to draw from makes it valuable.

The problem with my history classes did not only lie in the basic facts taught (and forgot) but also in the overarching frameworks which were geared at European history. There just is no such a thing as a "middle age" in China.

Hi. I think that history teachers will never have enough classroom time to cover everything that is important. So like the idea of teaching history as a "discipline", rather than as a set of facts.

This auntie is helping a 12-year-old family friend with her history homework here in Singapore. We only begin history lessons in Secondary School (aged 12+).

Instead of trying to cover everything, the first year of history classes is devoted to teaching critical thinking skills specific to history, using examples from ancient China and ancient India, which are the two civilisations with the deepest and oldest impact on my part of the world.

Eg. skills such as: making reasonable inferences, dealing with various kinds of sources and weighing them (including political cartoons), really understanding historical terms and the techniques used by historians and archaeologists to "test" findings/theories, relating ancient history to the present etc.

For example, the unification of China under Qin Shihuang is examined critically against unification of "India" by the Mauryan emperors. In that context, the students learn to evaluate various systems critically, taking into account external factors (eg. natural disasters, geographical factors) to really examine the impact of issues such as: centralisation/ de-centralisation, religion, notions of "kingship", reasons for revolutions etc. Not bad!

mandomikey,

China did have a much larger impact on western history than one might expect. It is one of the cradles of human civilization and despite its attempts to isolate itsself, it continued to have effects on the west. Regarding WW2: Do you know how many Jewish refugees found shelter in Shanghai?

Surely the relevance of China for us westeners is much larger than Bangladesh. We are talking about 20% about the human population, a permanent member of the UN Security Council, and a geopolitical heavyweight.

Besides: Globalization moves China into our own "neighborhood" fast. In fact, very fast, as far as China is concerned.

Go to your local shopping mall to find out.

Remember that a lot of the ignorance that we feel for not having learned more about China during our schoolage experience is in fact mostly China's own doing. For centuries their leaders had intentionally resisted outside influence, and sought to protect their empire by enclosing it. The Great Wall's impact was much greater idealogically and culturally than it was physically.

I think Furyougaijin brings up a good point which is to say that a Western education shouldn't be expected to have a large emphasis on Chinese history... why should it? There are amazing and unique stories to tell from every corner of the globe. Neither China (nor it's peoples) are special in the sense that they deserve more pages in the textbooks because they have a larger population. How much did we read about Bangladesh? User42993's logic of following a common thread of civilization also makes good sense. We're all here now due to our interest in learning the Chinese language, but to suggest that it would be more beneficial to teach students about China than about their own neighborhood would be silly.

The Nanjing discussion? Not as widely publicized here (in the U.S.) because the U.S. never took in any exiles or descendants like had been done for the Jews. Politics are most certainly involved as well, as the fate of the Israeli's is closely tied to that of other western democracies. Nonetheless, Nanjing was an upsetting scenario thats being repeated right now, and thats what people should be talking about. You'd be hardpressed to walk down the street today and find someone who can carry on an intelligent conversation about Darfur.

Alas, history must repeat itself.

This is an interesting discussion. Interesting to hear what others have been taught or not taught about Chinese history. Apart from Henning there is nobody from continental Europe speaking up.

I have just returned from China to spend a few months in my own country and am curious to find out what people know about and how they perceive China.

In history class, as far as I remember, there was not much. We knew about Marco Polo and that the Chinese invented gun powder and the compass. We may have heard about Mao Ze Dong and the Cultural Revolution. The general feel used to be of a huge country with a huge population far, far away and a general feeling of 'fear' or distrust towards it.

I don't know how things are now. I am looking forward to finding out over the next few months.

furyougaijin,

The details of The Rape of Nanjing are not in dispute, except by the Japanese. I have absolutely nothing against Japanese, but Japan (from a political standpoint) has a history of denying and covering up atrocities like The Rape.

Saying that China staged or embellished the Nanjing massacres is like saying the U.S. government staged 911. Sure, anything is possible - it's just highly unlikely.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that China did embellish the massacre, and let's say that only 10% (of the 350,000 deaths estimated by experts) were killed at the hands of Japanese soldiers. That's 35,000 innocent men, women, and children that were killed (brutally). Even that, to me, should be more than a footnote in world history books.

But again, the evidence provided from numerous sources states that the number of noncombatant deaths was between 260,000 and 350,000.

And what about:

- all the photos (and even film) of the massacre?

- the Americans and British in Nanjing at the time, who documented and testified to The Rape?

- the many books, confessions, and diaries by Japanese soldiers in the 60's and 70's, which confirmed and gave detailed accounts of the massacre?

- the Chinese women, like in the video that Cassie provided above, who have come forward with their own harrowing account of the massacre?

I'm not saying it's impossible that something like this could be embellished, and I'm certainly no expert on the subject. But given all the facts and details (from numerous worldwide sources, including Japan), my rational mind says that staging or embellishing such an event is ridiculous. I find it a much easier prospect for Japan to cover-up the massacre, than for China to create it merely for war propaganda.

I do agree with you in regards to history, that "There are tons of subjects that are given only cursory coverage if any at all." However, almost none of the comprehensive histories of WWII, read by the American public, discusses The Rape of Nanjing. That is like leaving The Jewish Holocaust out of the history books. There are important "lessons" from history that should receive more than a cursory review. This is one of them.

How are we to learn from our past mistakes, as societies wanting to make the world better for our children, if we deny that the mistakes ever happened? Is that not the most important reason for studying history?

Why mend things if they ain't broke? Why should Chinese history receive a more prominent place on any curriculum in general - non Asian studies specific - education? How much of the pre-revolution Russian history is covered in the 'Western' schools? How much is taught about the unification of Japan? How much attention is given in the English-speaking world to the Dutch wars for independance against Spain or to the Italian Guelf and Ghibelline troubles? Or to Garibaldi, for that matter? Or to what was happening on German soil in the centuries pre-WW1?

There are tons of subjects that are given only cursory coverage if any at all. Every nation in their history lessons picks out the most relevant facts to its own people - whatever these are perceived to be. There is nothing wrong with it per se. And anyone with specific interest in specific region and period is in the position to consult books on their chosen subject - and plenty of stuff is available.

@calkins:

'...many of the atrocities are truly unbelievable...'

...and some of those have indeed been strongly refuted by the Japanese in a well-argumented way. None that is reflected in Chang's book last time I've checked. But that's a different discussion altogether.

tvan - unfortunately your are correct.

The Rape of Nanjing and use of comfort women actually gets quite a bit of press in the U.S. if not worldwide. However, since this thread concerns history, I thinks it's fair to say that a quick trawl through history yields many precedents.

Thanks Cassie,

Nanjing and the comfort women are things I do know about. Even though I didnt get it in school, I read now. I have not read the book "Rape of Nanjing" because I get the idea, and I would find it very upsetting. Brent has mentioned it recently and I may give it a look now, but rest assured the world knows about these things even if the japanese dont like to admit it. I dont understand why they dont just admit it and move on. But then I cant understand how human beiings can do these things to each other in the first place. That will always be a mystery to me. Evidently there exist people fundamentally different from me. At least I hope Im different. Thank you for sharing.

-RJ

I'm a huge fan of "The Cartoon History of the World," a series of books from Larry Gonick. It's not quite perfect but it's a very enjoyable and intelligent overview of history.

I'm a US-ian, I think history was taught as a focus on one central line of civilization leading from Egypt to Greeece to Rome to England and then to US Pilgrims. If it didn't fall inside that silly line of descent, was covered only briefly.

When I read the sections on African History in History of the World part 3, I don't think there was a single thing I have even heard of before.

I teach at a university in Taiwan, and the other week the French Revolution came up in a conversation book I use. Curious about just how much the students know, I asked them when the French Revolution happened and a decent number knew 1789. (A couple said 1776, which deserves partial points I figure.) They certainly didn't have the "What the heck are you talking about?!" expression that I encounter far too often.

Imagine asking a North American sophomore class when the last Chinese empire fell, or when the Taiping Rebellion took place (and I'd need to look at Wikipedia to answer that second one, even though I read Jonathan Spence's [not too good] book on the subject!)

One point on history in Chinese countries: they DO have 3000+ years of their own well-recorded history to go through; I can understand why world history may not get much time! Unlike in, say, Canada, where our own national history is rather brief.

I think I've pretty much "always" known about the Nanjing Massacre--I'm not sure where from.

Another history teaser: the Taiping rebellion certainly involved more troops than the (roughly concurrent) American Civil War, and may have involved more than the Napoleonic Wars. Yet its presence in international consciousness is approximately zero.

hi guys,

I had an world history course when i was a high school student. American history and England history are the main part. We also learn some general history knowledge about other countries.

Since Calkins mentioned the Nanjing Massacre, i wondered that how many of you know about it? Do you know "comfort woman"? I was shocked when i found there was such a painful history. Here are an article from People's Daily, China.

60-Year Sadness of Chinese Comfort Women

Editor's Notes: The "September18" National Humiliation Day is approaching again. The aggression and disaster of those years have moved farther and farther away and the blood color is fading gradually. However, only when a nation bears those years firmly in mind, only when it refuses to tamper with and forget history and only when it dares to face up to the suffering and filth it had experienced, can it stand up on the new stage, and avoid history to repeat itself.

It is precisely because of this that old people bring up past humiliation again. Recent news reports say that the new editions of Japanese textbooks either make no mention of or only lightly touch the Nanjing massacre and comfort women. If the bloody history is forgotten even by our posterity, then, it is not impossible that the tragedy would be re-staged.

The Comfort Women system carried out by the Japanese army during the Second World War was the ugliest, filthiest, darkest sexual slave system in human history of the 20th century. Enslaved by this system, about 200,000 Chinese women suffered devastation, but only about 200 of them can be checked against historical records. Many of those old people, for various reasons, are still trembling in the twilight of history.

At the time when the wheel of the times has "rumbled" into the 21st century, some Japanese Right-wingers are still trying to cover up their atrocities, such as the "Comfort Women" system and the Nanjing Massacre, committed during Japan's invasion of China, and to revive their old dream of "Great Japan Empire", striking an inharmonious note in the times of peace.

This December, a group of Chinese women ravaged by the Japanese troops will file a suit to the court of Tokyo to claim compensation.

Eighty-three-year-old Meizhi was once a comfort woman. She was taken away from home on Chongming Islet of Shanghai by Japanese army one day in April 1938 when she was 21.

Meizhi was taken to a "Comfort Station" to serve as a sex slave, henceforth starting her life of a hell on earth.

Early this year, Meizhi raged again when she saw on TV Japanese Right-wingers assembled in Osaka, openly denying the Nanjing Massacre atrocities. Recommended by another old man living in the same village, Meizhi attended the "International Academic Seminar on China Comfort Women" held late last March and denounced the atrocities of Japanese army with her experience of blood and tears. In order to participate in the Tokyo Women's International Court of War Criminal, the stepson of Meizhi, Wang Anzhang, with the help of staff of the legislation service office of the township and Professor Su Zhiliang of the China "Comfort Women" Research Center, has finished the plaint and is still gathering materials at present.

The 83-year-old Meizhi said: "Why don't they admit what they have done indeed?" "I must win this lawsuit. As long as justice can't be upheld, I won't cease the lawsuit," said she with tears covering faces already.

Zhou Mei, living in the same town with Meizhi, was also a comfort woman once and suffered from mental and physical pain too in those days. The 91 years old women, thought living a forlorn life now, still keeps a clear memory of the shocking and horrible experience happening more than 60 years ago.

Zhou Xie, son of Zhou Mei, witnessed all those when he was only five years old. The seed of hatred has long been rooted in his heart. Later on he took part in the war to resist US aggression and aid Korea, becoming an excellent pilot. He also has written the plaint and prepared for the opening of the Tokyo court this December.

I investigated. :)

My wife told me she had a semester of "World history" in school (1 school hour per week). Contents encompassed classic European history (Greek/Roman), the discovery of America, colonialization (of course), industrial revolution, and the two World Wars.

> I was so angry when I first went to China,

>realizing I had no accurate information or understanding

>of such a great place. Angry also with myself for letting

>that happen.

Same here. I made it a priority to check things for myself once I realized that the education I got in my country ([West--Germany, late 80s, cold war) was heavily influenced by politics.

tvan raises a good point. What are the Chinese taught about America? Anyone willing to share?

Up through 8th grade, history in the US tends to be focused on (Western) European and US history. My high school's history requirements was 2 years of US history and one year of "World Cultures". The World Cultures class spent at least a month or two on China. Two years vs 1-2 months... yes, a very western-centered view. Actually, not even Western; Central and South America did not receive equal treatment to Western Europe. But I suppose a year of world history is more than some have experienced, so I count myself among the lucky ones.

I take a modified view of what LostInAsia said... history focuses on one's own people, with a more than slight lean toward one's own good deeds. I'm curious whether history taught in other countries is also just as country-centric.

Incidentally, if you're able to find it in the library (otherwise, it's quite expensive), I really enjoyed listening to The Teaching Company's "A Brief History of the World" as an overview of world history... there's one lecture in there that compares and contrasts Han China and the Roman Empire which some may find interesting.

I'm in my 20s now, and grew up in the mid-western United States. I think I slept through most of history class (needless to say, it wasn't my best subject...), but from what I do remember, we focused mainly on American and European history (this was in the mid-to-late 90s). I do remember specifically studying Greek/Roman history. China, though, was largely unmentioned. I think it was still viewed by my mid-western teachers as a looming giant, semi-uncivilized, and unworthy of class time (or maybe they themselves just didn't know enough to teach about it). Come to think of it, the same goes for the whole continent of Africa. It makes one wonder how we are supposed to understand the unfamiliar if no one will teach us?

AuntieSue, your comment on SE Asia is spot-on. Of course, in 2005 it emerged that the followup attack of the Gulf of Tonkin incident was misrepresented, not only to get Americans behind the war, but our allies as well. There's nothing anti-American about it.

About Chinese history in the West, I sometimes wonder about the flip side of that question; what are the Chinese taught about the West? Previously, I understand that 国民党/國民黨/GúoMínDǎng schools taught that America came to China's aid during WWII; and that the mainland viewed as imperialists. I wonder what they teach in Taiwan now? Or in China?

Well, the few lessons I had rather accidentily in 1989 were at least fair.

My father told me his teacher in the late 40s still had a quite different "socialization". Those days China was depicted not unlike Auntie Sue put it above - a place with a dangerously amount of people all craving for a world-take-over. And in physics they had to estimate how big the earthquake would be if every Chinese citizen jumped up and down at the same time.

Another interesting question is how China is depicted in the media in the west *today*. Accoring to major news outlets they all want to rob our industries, the exchange students are hidden spies, and of course they sent us poisoned and inferior products. If milk prices rise it is because Chinese gobble up all world milk ressources. And if coal prices drop (which hurts our over-subsidized mining industry) it is because China digs up too much coal.

Ouch! Sorry if that sounds in any way like criticism of the USA, it's not meant to be, we just happen to be the countries embroiled in it at the time. It was part of the thinking of the times we lived in half a century ago, and I am saddened to know that more USA people have suffered a great deal more than we have.

Of course China, due to its extreme unknownness, was painted as the boogey man for a while, then it virtually disappeared off our maps again.

When I was a little kid, we were all told that this mysterious foreign place contained unimaginable millions of evil people, whose primary aim in life was to come to Australia and change our type of government without us being forced to go and vote any more. Their method was to play hopscotch across all the island nations until they reached here. I can still see all the maps and diagrams that were repeatedly on TV, in newspapers, and anywhere you might see a poster.

One of these small countries en route was busy having a war with itself at the time, and that was holding up the evil invasion plan. If we could charge over there with guns and make the right side win, that country couldn't be used as a stepping stone and we would not be invaded. Also, the USA wanted us to do it. They insisted. If we didn't send our teenagers to that war, we would lose the USA's protection and worse, could become enemies of the USA, which sounded at least as dangerous as the aforementioned forced change of government. So we did it. Lots of our kids died there not understanding who they were fighting and why, soon the lie was exposed, and as we know the whole schamozzle went belly up. And nobody ever mentioned China again after those initial propaganda diagrams had completed their task.

calkins... I'm in shock. I'd never heard of it, either. So very, very saddening!

I agree, very very little Chinese history taught in U.S. schools. I'm sure the lack of it had a lot to do with politics. I recently read The Rape of Nanking, by Iris Chang, and I couldn't believe I'd never heard of it. Very sad. Why teach about The Holocaust, but not about this? I highly recommend this book. It's not for the faint-hearted, it is very graphic, and many of the atrocities are truly unbelievable...but this is a powerful book.

In my schooldays we had one little piece of chinese history and that was about the emperialism and how england tryed to keep up the Opium import to china ( leading into a war...).

This lesson was going about 2 schoolhours maximum.

The most,well probably all I know about chinese history comes from TV documentarys.

In school, I learned that China was where Marco Polo went, and returned with technology for gun powder and noodles. Also, that China was a place I was forbidden to go. (The latter changed after I became an adult.) That was about it. When I was at the University there were classes about Chinese history, culture, language, etc, but I didn't take any, nor did most students. Now when I hear about China in the news it is usually something about American jobs going there, the balance of trade, political opposition to US initiatives on the UN Security Council, or human rights and the Olympics.

My general impression is that we Americans are on average dangerously ignorant of the rest of the world.

That said, lessons on Chinese history in Chinese are probably not the most effective way to elighten the most Americans, but tell me more, please, I'm interested.

Hi There! I've been listening for a long time. I found this particular podcast most interesting! Please *please* have more shows like this one! It's wonderful to be getting a language refresher AND a history lesson at the same time!

Thanks again!

irene

As a teacher myself, I can say that the Chinese are often discussed when talking about Westward expansion and the building of the railroads in relation to US history. Also, the proliferation of prostitutes and the agent system for importing sex workers over during the same period is also discussed to address the large gender imbalance. There is also a brief examination of the dynasties in world civilation class. In terms of modern history, the revolution, communism, and Mao have became rather passe, but there is obviously more interest aimed at present day China due to the upcoming Olympics.

Good reading material to give a broad overview of 20th/21st century history:

"Mandate of Heaven" by Orville Schell

"The China Fantasy" James Mann

"The High Road to China", Kate Teltscherer.

What should be taught about China in school? Who made the Great Wall, or to more confrontational aspects?

What is being taught about China in schools today? Anyone recently graduate from high school (or still attending) or have children in high school and care to share?

My recollection of history (in the U.S.) pretty much consists of a quick run-through of Greek-Roman-European history followed by an exclusive focus on U.S. and California history. Probably the greatest focus on Chinese per se involved the immigrant experience during the gold rush (California history) and the related Chinese versus Irish transcontinental railroad competition (U.S. history). There was a vague awareness of the existence of Indian and Chinese cultures, but no more. Modern history was skewed towards Cold War indoctrination (Vietnam had just ended) with little coverage of actual events.

I assume a lot of what people learn(ed) is going to be based on age. I went through high school in the late 80s, and the Soviet Union/ Cold War loomed large--we studied both the Russian and the Chinese Revolutions/ Civil War in detail. China pre-1911 may as well not have existed, alas, even though I was in Vancouver--a city with a massive 華人 population. And I graduated high school in June 1989, and, well... let's just say the Cold War Red China paradigm wasn't exactly broken in that month.

As a child of British immigrants who grew up with the Hornblower series of novels, I was more than a little horrified when I finally figured out (during university, reading on my own) what the Opium Wars entailed. It'd always sounded somewhat romantic and rascally to me. Oops.

I'm also somewhat troubled by how little I ever learned about the Chinese immigrant experience in "Gold Mountain"--much of the railroad was built by exploited Chinese labour. Novels have admirably filled this gap; I don't know if history classes have caught up.

I'd hope that now high school courses do a lot more with China. In the late 80s/ early 90s, to be honest, China just didn't seem that important in an international context, just as today India (2nd most populous) isn't discussed as much as China, and Indonesia (4th) isn't on the radar at all.

James Fallows of the Atlantic Monthly is currently based in China, and has recently written a number of interesting articles--pandas, the really odd currency deal between USA and China, traders in ShenZhen... good reading.

I'm curious when Sinophobia will come back on the political radar in the States--it's faded into the background post-911, although you still see it when the military attempts to justify their budget. The Olympics could be quite geopolitically interesting... boy, that sentence shows how much of a nerd I am! I couldn't care less about the sports, but I'm very curious about how Americans would react to coming second to China in the medal count.

As a quick guess: history tends to focus on when one's own people look good--witness British obsession with the Tudors and World War II, Russian concerns with the Great Patriotic War, American love of the Founding Fathers and Lincoln... And pretty much no countries look good in their historical dealings with China.

dang, spaces between paragraphs don't display like they did in the editor... pooey