Summer fare in Chengdu

Also, just coming out of winter here, so it may have more appeal in Summer, but yes, I'd definitely be up for it.

'cold noodles'

We will have to try the Yunnan cold noodles some time - they cover the noodles completely with neatly arranged vegetables (a nice balance of colours) - you can't see the noodles at first. Doused in oil, garlic and chilli etc., well I can only recommend. Actually I should be able to find a photo and post below.

mate, I have little to no experience of Chinese Summer food, and you've summed up nicely the Aussie experience [yeah, gotta have pavlova]. Can't say cold noodles sound particularly appetising to me, but I'm up for giving anything a go, and more so if you recommend them.

“I actually don't feel like being cajoled into not using it for fear of offending”

I couldn't agree more with this. I didn't intend to come across as cajoling [sorry if I did]....my intent was more one of awareness. Well actually I guess I was just saying that I thought the "American" usage is pretty common here. That was really the only point I set out to make. I agree we shouldn't allow words to be totally hijacked...let others do what they will with them, one should be able to go on using the way one always has.

'I don't like cold food.'

You nearly had me there and I was going to concede, but then I realised that you have never tried cold food in the magical south-west of China. Cold noodles, hmmm.

I think I almost agree with you on all points about the 'P' word - I should perhaps be more circumspect, in America anyway. I think I saw it as a pussy word because it was frequently used at home (did I mention my son?) but as I say at greater length to Baba I actually don't feel like being cajoled into not using it for fear of offending.

The F word has certainly lost its punch but you still wouldn't use it in a business meeting, unless you are independently wealthy.

I don't like cold food. Especially in SH. So glad you brought it up.

As for the "P" word, well, when I hear it used in the sense of a "cream puff" or a "sissy", my mind doesn't go to lady parts at all. Its a different context, a different meaning. Maybe it did originate there, but it just doesn't flip that switch. Not for me anyway. I do avoid the word however, even though I am a great fan of colorful language, because I find it awkward. Awkward precisely because of all the social sexual baggage the word's cross meaning carries with it. One always has to look around to see if anybody overheard, but perhaps is far enough away that they didn't catch the context. Its just uncomfortable. Used in other ways there is a very limited proper time and/or audience and one must tread carefully. Its amazing how much power a word can have, once we have been programmed by society and culture to have a downright visceral reaction to them. This is why one needs to be very careful when learning profanity in a new language. Its hard to know how words make native speakers "feel". I can swear all day long in Chinese and I feel nothing. They are just words, but in English, I "feel" it.

On a trip to Mexico once I saw a guy wearing a shirt in one of our factories that had the "F" word printed across the front in big bold letters. It didn't seem to bother anybody, but in the States, I'm sure he would have been asked to change it, and even I did a double take. Words do change though. When I was a boy, the F bomb was downright "Thermonuclear". Today its just an ordinary IED. Its lost something since the day it was first secretly introduced to me by the neighbor kids. It was "so bad" they couldn't say it. They had to write it on the pavement in chalk. It was intel they had gotten from their parents. The beginning of my education on the street. Niubi!

'actually I think that detracts from your case'

That is well argued - I will grant you that, given my experience is with the young people who may be more aware of or more practiced in use of, the 'new' vulgar meaning.

'Americanisation'

I was just saying that it seems that Americans have appropriated the term almost wholly in the vulgar sense, while Britain (see Chris) and Australia seem to hold to the older more benign interpretation. The ambiguity in Wikipedia seems to support this difference of interpretation.

"They seem to have put a power booster on your thread. "

haha, yeah. I noticed that too, but I like the way you've phrased it.

"In fact I am always joking - I need a tag for things I post in a serious vein. Like .. 'seriously'. "

我也是，我也是

“Even if excitedly saying at the same time 'I like having coffees at Starbucks', their eyes show that their brain is elsewhere”

哈哈

"the fun is usually in selecting a theme to select the guests to set up their awkward or hostile dinner conversation"

haha, that does sound like fun. Dunno why, but the first person that jumped to mind on this theme was Siegfried from Get Smart. I'd also have George from Seinfeld...he's great with awkward, hehe. Kramer. Dr Evil and Mini me. Lex Luthor, the Flying Nun [ or Gidget, or Maria from sound of music], Rachel Lapp from Witness

bodawei,

"In my own mind I can't see any connection between weakness and the biological term"

fair enough. Clearly you are equating it with a little animal called a kitty cat and it's quality of weakness [are they really? ...I've known grown men to be terrified of them, hehe]...but my point would be, without resorting to looking this sort of thing up online on something like wikipedia [which I am yet to do, but I totally believe you if it says it backs you] how many really know the origins of how such expressions came into use, and what is it most likely to be associated with now? ie common usage. I think Rachel has given a brilliant description above, but to recap I think the other possible interpretation is that by equating you with something female it is saying you are weak [so it's a chauvenistic usage as well....used between blokes to imply one is weak like a female.....NOT saying I agree with this at all, just saying this is how I think it is being used]. So I guess it can be totally innocently using it equating one with a kitty cat as you have been doing, but with the other usage (didn't realise it was American...thought it was universal but there you go, I guess I have been v Americanised] so common, I think there is a risk some would interpret it that way. I guess it depends on which company you're in.

"Obviously our language culture offers opportunities for double entendre - but surely context is important. Otherwise you might be restricted in your vocabulary"

我完全同意. Oh yeah, it can get really ridiculous...and can also be the stuff of comedy where you can't say anything without a possible other meaning. Could even be annoying I guess if someone was determined to look for sexual innuendo in every word that was uttered. On the other hand, if something becomes v v common in usage, then it can be tricky not to think of such a meaning. Take the word "gay" for example. Originally to say someone is "gay" meant to say they were a happy fellow. Cheerful. To say that now is generally very unlikely to be met with that interpretation.

"should we stop using this word because of possible offence caused because in some quarters it has been appropriated for vulgar purposes?"

not at all. Totally agree with you here. I am in your camp [no "are you being served" pun intended] on this one. Let people make of it what they will. Context and intent are on your side. And a sense of humour, hehe.

"I can push my case because people often substitute 'pussy cat' in this context"

...actually I think that detracts from your case. For me that would tend to hint that they may be aware of the other possible interpretation and they using the "cat" as a qualifier to make sure there is no ambiguity, no misinterpretation.

"I think this might be a case of the American sense creeping into our culture - there is certainly some precedence for this."

...could be. Maybe I have been more exposed [yikes, sounds like radiation exposure or something, hehe...really, like the kiwis, we love the Yanks ;) ]

Yeah, I got you about meeting your heroes. It's why Pat Metheny was removed from the list, and Mike Collins was left on. My encounter with Pat left me unhappy, and my encounter with Mike made my day.

You've obviously thought more about this than I did. I wanted to just to invite people that I thought would make me laugh.

'not quite sure if you're serious'

That's understandable .. I started with 'seriously' and ended with 'okay, I'm joking' - conventionally you rely on the last thing stated. In fact I am always joking - I need a tag for things I post in a serious vein. Like .. 'seriously'.

No, we need more lessons on all sorts of practical subjects like locks and pipes .. and kitchens (my last food reference.) Even taxis and we must have between 60 and 70 of them, off the top of my head. Actually one reason I don't participate in your excellent 'Lesson Suggestions' thread is that I don't really care - I can learn from anything, such is the state of my Chinese. The other reason is that I could never open up the page with 2,756 posts .. but they seem to have fixed that. They seem to have put a power booster on your thread.

I know this post is already too long for you so you can stop reading. To anybody else reading, isn't it interesting that we need a familiar context to sustain our interest. Even in science fiction - it has got to anchor somewhere. So when I mention the word 'coffee' to any Han Chinese their eyes actually glaze over. Even if excitedly saying at the same time 'I like having coffees at Starbucks', their eyes show that their brain is elsewhere. So - when pretzel and I are learning Chinese we need an anchor here in China. If they ever make a lesson on a visit to the Lincoln Centre I will go and get a lesson from the archive to fill in time.

"Question: Name some people, living or dead, that you'd like to have dinner with. "

pretz -- I love the dinner party game! I have trouble with the traditional way of the game you described though. I think it's because for me, historical and public figures are rarely fleshed out as human characters, ironically making them less real than fictional characters; they're symbols for ideas and achievements. Which makes it hard for me to connect. I also suffer probably from the "you never want to meet your heroes" idea. Although I can think of one person who should join your dinner party with the person who invented farming: the person who first made beer on purpose. Those two might have a lot to say to each other.

The way I play this one, it's often richly defined characters from literature or pop culture rather than real people living or dead, and the fun is usually in selecting a theme to select the guests to set up their awkward or hostile dinner conversation. Like, abandoned, orphaned, and neglected children: go! And then you might suggest Sally Draper (from Mad Men), Becky Sharpe (Vanity Faire), Neville Longbottom (from Harry Potter), Michael (from The Wire), Huckleberry Finn, Arya Stark (from GoT). Or, relatable criminal anti-hero types go! Al Swearengin (from Deadwood), River Song (Doctor Who), Lucifer (Paradise Lost: controversial, extra points!), Stringer Bell (from The Wire). Mad scientists, wizards and shamens go! etc.

My way is very trivial and nerdy but good fun, IMHO. But sadly it obviously translates very poorly across cultural boundaries or among people with just very different cultural interests.

"Seriously, you don't need a lesson on calling a locksmith. How often do you need one? "

not quite sure if you're serious, but in any event, take sports if you're thinking that all is said and done about locks/locksmiths (even though we've never even had 1 lesson), or plumbing, or ......

Hmm, well my Chinese is far from advanced so the specifics of your faux pas happily elude me. I know how easy it is to make faux pas in one's own language and would probably make an utter clown of myself on an hourly basis if I had to communicate in Chinese all the time. For the first one, I am vaguely aware that there are some, ahem, humorous issues with hospitals that provide dual language signage in 中文 and English when the signs are intended to direct people to obstetrics or ultra-sound.

Hey baba

I don't doubt your judgement on this one. I am aware (I use the term cautiously) that the expression is on the colloquial side, but I did not realise that one should be careful because of the 'other' meaning. In my own mind I can't see any connection between weakness and the biological term (and Wikipedia sort of supports me although it is also not unambiguous).

Obviously our language culture offers opportunities for double entendre - but surely context is important. Otherwise you might be restricted in your vocabulary. I mean one might say the same about a word like 'box': it has a thousand functional meanings - should we stop using this word because of possible offence caused because in some quarters it has been appropriated for vulgar purposes? Actually I am asking a serious question here - I really don't think that outside Are You Being Served episodes and the like that 'pussy' should be considered a dirty word.

Pussy can be used in a light-hearted way to describe someone who is a bit timid. Full stop, end of (my) story. Almost - I can push my case because people often substitute 'pussy cat' in this context. 'Come on ... don't be a pussy cat!'

I think this might be a case of the American sense creeping into our culture - there is certainly some precedence for this.

I can't match your wit - thanks for a very cool post by the way ...

Further to my other recent faux pas (I'll have to start catalogueing them to keep track), in one of my classes students wanted to know about Australian food and I've been talking about 硬烧饼 ying4shao3bing (damper - the historic Australian meal that one eats once in a blue moon to remind of us of our past) - this is another word that should be used carefully in context in China, or your audience will crack up.

'160 or so lessons specifically on food'

I won't doubt your counting prowess, but from memory cold food was discussed once in the past four years, and that was in the comment section, by me probably (as RJ pointed out, I can't remember anything I said last week.) The whole country just spent a long hot summer eating cold food and what does Shanghai (one of the hottest cities in the country) say about it? Nothing. It's an area crying out for attention.

Seriously, you don't need a lesson on calling a locksmith. How often do you need one? If you do, look up the word. 锁匠 suo3jiang4. But they are all over the street so you just need to look one in the eye and say 麻烦你 ... [okay, I'm joking, but I did need one once and I looked it up in my dictionary.]

' I think I could get away with a very occasional f-bomb in my old job at the bank'

Hee hee, thinking about my distant corporate past, yes this was definitely a no no, unless you worked for Toll Holdings it seems (current story in Australia). But you could sort of b-r-e-a-t-h-e it out slowly, without finishing the final consonant and kind of get away with it. The expression on your face is important too I think.

' if I provided a link '

Sure - do your worst .. but if in doubt you could IM me (if that still works on ChinesePod). Althoough I'm probably capable of making a fool of myself without it. As I did the other night talking about an ultra-sound, and my pronunciation is super good (he says modestly) but I said the wrong word and my audience went into fits of laughter. Is it because the woman's parts are so funny - why do people go into fits of laughter? I guess it is just the inappropriateness of mentioning such things. Actually I killed myself laughing too, what else could I do.

"But I have to accept that Americans may consider it as insulting for women ... gee you guys are weird. :) "

I won't argue about us being "weird" in any context (badge of honor, really). But I may have misconveyed my meaning if you took away from it the idea that women would consider it insulting. As I said, my suspicion is that the original coinage of the term as it is used today in the U.S. (I make no statements about how it is used elsewhere) might have had a slight incidental contempt for women in intent (Knuckledragger say: "You are a coward! You are like ladies! In fact, so much so that I metaphorically replace you with lady parts! Ha!"). But I doubt anyone interprets that phrase as overtly hostile to women, and in fact women sometimes use this word with this meaning (though less than other swears, including the f-bomb).

The only potential offense is that it's vulgar, a bit obscene. Anytime you could openly curse with total abandon, you could use this term with this meaning without worrying that someone will label you a sexist as well as vulgar. Your mileage may vary if "total abandon" is not on the menu. I think I could get away with a very occasional f-bomb in my old job at the bank, but not this word (probably because it's more specifically "anatomical" and in polite mixed company, American men are actually more likely to be weirded out by reference to lady anatomy.)

And speaking of being vulgar and obscene and not knowing your audience, am I likely to get into trouble if I provided a link to a very vulgar language joke in Chinese? Imagine something like "Who's on First?" in Chinese but with lots of hard swears (total abandon!) and a "Your Momma" joke thrown in for good measure.

"will give it a spin and see what reaction it illicits..."

haha, bravely going where no man....well maybe not where no man, but I guess Neil Armstrong has me in that Space exploration mindframe. I always like that spirit of giving something a whirl. I look forward to your feedback. If it's in a pub, and your remark is addressed to a member of the fairer sex, you might wanna be adorned in togs and goggles.

ps. Duck !

pps. as in, don't forget to duck.

Maybe this is something that's changing in our respective countries baba. I've been away from UK for 6 years now so maybe it has a stronger meaning now. I'm back for a few days next week so will give it a spin and see what reaction it illicits...

"but in my experience in Australia it is not used as a vulgar insult"

I beg to differ mate. I know exactly the meaning that you are referring to, but I would cringe a little if this was used in polite company due to it's association with the meaning Rachel is referring to.

"Two of those people are dead. I suggest later."

lol !!

Very mild insult in UK aswell Bodawei. Think this is just another of those US vs UK/aus things (although good to know that I mustn't use when next in US!)

Question: Name some people, living or dead, that you'd like to have dinner with. My answer: George Carlin, Richard Pryor and Bill Cosby, Wes Montgomery, Lyle Mays, Herbie Hancock, Socrates, Galileo, Copernicus, Jet Li, the Wright Brothers, Mike Collins (the astronaut), the first guy that made and used fire, the first farmer.....

He was even complimented by some guy named bodawei. Must have been the other bodawei :-)

..haha, good pick up RJ ;)

"What is it about protecting your mothers and grandmothers in the US?"

I can't speak for everyone else, but in my case it's not protecting her, it's protecting me. There's only so much motherly disapproval I can take without melting down.

"and if you don't behave properly we will take it back from you. ... ;) "

Oooh, can I interest you in repossessing this one sooner rather than later?

Very dry Rachel, I like it.

"I was hoping for a discussion about cold Chinese food and so far noone has taken the bait."

I was curious about your post. You started waxing eloquent about food. FOR the record, i'm not against food lessons on Cpod. My thinking that with about 160 or so lessons specifically on food, that maybe its time to focus on other subjects that have had less treatment (like calling a locksmith for example). I was not going to discuss food, but I got to a specific line in your dialogue, and the rest is history.

" I need dinners with George Carlin, Richard Pryor and Bill Cosby sooner than later."

Two of those people are dead. I suggest later.

'You know what they say about memory loss'

No ... I've forgotten.

'Pavlova'

RJ, you gotta get out more. When we meet on that planned trip to Australia I will treat you to a pavlova.

'ask one of the hosts to address this charming piece of lexis'

This is a great idea. I have been thinking about writing my dialogue in Chinese (in fact I should have started with Chinese, but by that time it would be half way through Autumn) but i would struggle with the idioms - maybe we should ask ChinesePod teachers to provide a translation of some of the more challenging phrases!

what SF_Rachel said, except she said it better than I could have. I would have tried to be funny and failed miserably. I need dinners with George Carlin, Richard Pryor and Bill Cosby sooner than later.

Well this is going in directions I did not anticipate ... :)

And by the way Rachel, thanks for the tutorial.

I was hoping for a discussion about cold Chinese food and so far noone has taken the bait.

But to clear the air - I see now that the word has many meanings, but in my experience in Australia it is not used as a vulgar insult (that is interesting!) - my son calls me a pussy all the time. Oh wait, maybe it IS a vulgar insult. No ... I'm pretty sure that in Australia it is a slightly humorous (and common son-father) insult that even your mother could cope with. [Digression: What is it about protecting your mothers and grandmothers in the US?? (I've had this conversation her before on ChinesePod.) Don't mothers and grandmothers get to swear in America? Assuming they do, how do they get to learn the latest words if you don't swear in front of them? I'm wondering if it is that Americans started as Puritans and we started as low-down uncouth flea-ridden convicts. With hearts of gold.]

I don't want to get technical, because I can't, but I don't think the word - used as a mild insult as in my dialogue - is mysogynist in origin, but then I only have Wikipedia to go on. Certainly they cannot decide with certainty that it is. But I have to accept that Americans may consider it as insulting for women ... gee you guys are weird. :)

By the way, you refer to this as 'American slang' - which is in itself ambiguous - but, you do know that America does not own this word, right? It was in use well before America was invented. You have just borrowed it, and if you don't behave properly we will take it back from you. ... ;)

bodawei, pardon me if I'm completely overlooking a sarcasm signal and that you totally get this, but to me this is looking like a case of imperfectly understood American slang that I think we can rectify. Please allow me to horn in to help! I use veryvulgar language in front of my elderly (and slightly deaf) mother often enough that it bothers her some, but with her in the room I would not use that word to express a lack of courage, no matter how deaf she gets.

The significance of the term isn't that the wimp is being compared to an adorably timid kitty cat; he's being compared to lady parts. One lady part specifically. In a way that belittles his manhood and expresses a bit of contempt for lady parts. So technically it's both very obscene and slightly misogynistic, though the misogyny is mostly in origin and not really in intent in current usage.

If we were to be unfair and ask one of the hosts to address this charming piece of lexis, I'd prefer it be Dilu. Jenny excels at politely shutting things down (that microsecond pause before saying “不可能吧！”）but Dilu expresses "disapproval" (way too strong a word, but I can't think of a better one) in a way that is, I think, rather playful. I always get a kick out of it when she begins hinting that she's a bit exasperated, and John cheerfully but very quickly lets go of whatever topic he's bugging her with. It's a fun feature of their dynamic together.

Glad to hear your memory is OK. You know what they say about memory loss. Anyway, you will have to ask PL about the other comment. I had never heard of "Pavlova". (Evidently it is a meringue-based dessert, with a crisp crust and soft center, named after the Russian ballet dancer Anna Pavlova.) Interesting, but sounds somewhat like a disease to untrained ears perhaps. Or maybe your second guess is more on target.

Oh yeah ... I'm a bit slow.

I knew I should remember that, his English name, how very IT. He is great - I still like his voice the best; well Connie and Sunix come in neck and neck (and I hope I haven't offended anyone.) Yes, Sunix could do an admirable job as B. He'll have to be a knowledgable migrant from Shanghai, come to cash in on the high tech opportunities in this burgeoning city. Escaping to where the food and lifestyle is just so tempting.

So now I see that it can't be 'pavlova' and it must be 'pussy', which in English means a weak-minded wimp. Perhaps a 懦夫 nuo4fu1 - yes, a 4th tone, first tone word will show off his talents beautifully. Liddle bewdy.

I can't think what you guys were thinking ... :)

who is Sunix? He is a "very famous" cpod IT guy and voice actor, known for his unique style and accent. He was profiled here

http://chinesepod.com/lessons/merry-christmas#comment-201786

He was even complimented by some guy named bodawei. Must have been the other bodawei :-)

Ill let Pretzel answer your other question. Im not touching it.

pavlova?

but why would Jenny and/or Dilu squirm?

And who is Sunix??

I don't know, I give up .... :)