User Comments - tingyun

Posted on: Foreign Father Loses His Cool

I'm not sure going to anecdotal evidence is the best way to refute unscientific beliefs, there's a bit of a contradiction there. ;) Besides, they have plenty of anecdotes of their own...

Wikipedia is often good for finding evidence to refute myths: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

Posted on: Let Me Off!

Both could be either past or future tense, the translation is just picking one of the possibilities.

That having been said, if they deleted the 北京 and the 吃饭 both would seem a great deal more natural...Chinese people rarely talk in such complete sentences.

Posted on: Ordering a Fruit Salad

The cpod staff all reply in simplified already. Those users who choose to use traditional charecters are here for their own learning purposes, not to teach you or anyone else. They already have to deal with virtually everyone else's comment being in simplified - why try to claim that they are impolite for simply leaving a comment in the charecter set they prefer?

Right-wingnut's dictionary suggestion is a good one - alternativly cut and paste any comment into google translate and it can switch back and forth from simplified and traditional. All in all would take you about 10 seconds.

But really, I don't understand this obsession about getting every comment...foreign learners of Chinese make for a terrible choice of reading material to begin with, grammar and usage weirdness is prevalent even in very advanced learners, missing one traditional charecters written comment isn't going to hamper anyone's learning...

Posted on: The Trouble with Marrying a Foreigner

Clearly the things you mention are not universally accurate statements about China, but the problem is likely less that you have now seen through the 'veil' to some essential truth of things as they are, but rather thinking in terms of such generalizations about such a large and diverse country in the first place. It seems from some of your posts these past few weeks (lesson suggestions about not liking China, the nature of some of your other lesson suggestions, the above posts, etc)that you may have come to some new, negative generalizations about China, and I'm not certain this reflects progress.

I've lived in the US for some 25 years out of my 29, and I don't feel I have a comprehensive understanding of the country. The specific places and circles of society I have been in, sure, I have some understanding, but even there one sees enormous differences. And really, we do tend to get a very restricted scope of exposure to only parts of society...I know what law firms are like, business consulting, big universities, poor communities and high schools growing up, as well as a passing understanding of the places I have lived, Michigan, California, Texas, Massachusetts, etc...but this is essentially limited.

China is a huge country, you have seen some things you do not like recently, but really, there is far more you haven't even seen, good and bad, and it displays tremendous variation across regions, segments of society, and individuals. Any generalization, positive or negative, is going to fail to be true. And you can spend the next 25 years there, and likely will have only a passing understanding of China as a whole , just as any large and complex country.

Sorry to run out on a conversation (I'm sure any reply you would write would be thoughtful and well considered), but intensive summer japanese study will keep me off the boards for the next few months - I hope everyone's Chinese studies go great! :)

Posted on: Actually Contrary with 倒

Hi adamplax,

反而 and 反倒 are essentially equivalent. As for 倒 used alone, there are some differences... On the below entry for 倒 taken from a dictionary, only the first meaning, a, could you replace 倒 with 反倒 or 反而 without any too substantial change in meaning...d, e, f you would more or less only use 倒 for, while b or c you could use 反倒 or 反而, but there is a slight change in tone and it would be a much less common usage (even a little strange depending on the combination). Actually even in d you could probably switch in 反倒 or 反而 if you were comfortable with a little strangeness...there really aren't hard line grammer rules in Chinese, best to learn things slowly by absorbing usage...

副] a)表示同一般情理或主观意料相反,相当于“反而”“却”等 ▷弟弟～比哥哥懂事｜没想到十个学生～有六个不及格。b)用于“得”字后的补语之前,表示同事实相反,有责怪的语气 ▷说得～轻松,你来试试｜你想得～美。c)用在复句的后一个分句里,表示转折 ▷房子不大,摆设～很讲究｜扮相不好,嗓子～不错。d)用在复句的前一个分句里,表示让步 ▷东西～挺好,就是贵｜我～没什么,就怕别人有意见。e)使语气舒缓 ▷他～不是故意的｜那～也不一定。f)表示追问或催促 ▷你～去不去呀?｜你～拿个主意呀!

Posted on: Excited about Exclamations (Part 4)

Actually, a dictionary should have both, and which to use is something I find really interesting. First let's take a look:

哼

hēng

❶[拟声] 模拟鼻子里发出的声音 ▷～～唧唧。→ ❷ [动] 呻吟 ▷病痛折磨着他,但他一声也不～｜疼得直～～。→ ❸ [动] 低唱或吟咏 ▷嘴里～着歌｜这些歌都是跟着电视～会的。

哼

hèng

❶ [叹] 表示不满、鄙视或愤慨 ▷～,有什么了不起!｜～,这些人真是胆大包天。→ ❷ [叹] 表示威胁 ▷～,咱走着瞧!

Obviously there are some meaning differences in scope (for example, 哼 as first tone heng1 can be used for painful sighs or humming a tune), and some crossover (the dissatisfied sound). But the most interesting difference, and one that comes up with alot of particles, is that 1st tone is 拟声, and forth tone is 叹. This was a question I have confronted often, as I used to love reading novels out loud as practice. Basically, you have two different circumstances with the exact same meaning and a different reading sound:

他哼了一声，然后说＂你走吧！＂read as first tone heng1

他说了＂哼，你走吧！＂read as forth tone, not quite heng4, something a little towards huh or hmph but in the forth tone.

Same meaning, same event, but in the first case it is a 拟声词, in the second case a 叹词, the critical thing is whether it is in quotes or not.

The same logic applies outside of reading novels, if you were to yourself want to make that sound, you would be in the second case, 叹词, but if you were to relate a narration of events, describing that someone made that sound, you would generally be in the first case, 拟声词, provided you weren't narrating with a big quote or someone.

Posted on: Excited about Exclamations (Part 3)

Hi Keth,

Yep definitally a challanging read. Technical linguistics articles wouldn't be light reading even in english - I took the lazy way and just skimmed through and picked a few parts relevant to our discussion. If you do end up reading farther or more deeply and discover anything particularly interesting, let me know!

On the second point, I'm afraid I lack any relevant understanding to contribute. But an internet search did turn up a book

近代汉语语气词:汉语语气词的历史考察 which might have some insight - taobao has copies. I'll drop the chapter listing below - it would probably be much more relaxed reading than the article above (at least less technical) and ifmyou are interested in the topic may make for fun reading. Seems the method is to trace the use of modal particles from the begining of recorded history to the present, and compare to other ways of expressing mood, like short little statements (不成，就是了, etc)

序

1引论

1.1汉语表达语气的手段和语气词的界定

1.2汉语语气词发展历史鸟瞰

1.2.1先秦两汉时期的常用语气词

（1）“也”和“矣’

（2）“耳”和“尔”

（3）“焉”和“已”

（4）“乎”和“哉”

（5）“邪（耶）”和“欤（与）”

（6）“者”和“夫”

1.2.2魏晋南北朝时期语气词使用概况

（1）文言语气词沿用中表现出新陈代谢的趋势

（2）文言语气词承用中形成较为明晰的分工

1.2.3近代汉语语气词的新面貌

（1）文言语气词使用的定型化

（2）新兴语气词的产生和运用

2唐五代语气词的更迭

2.1 问题的提出

2.2文言语气词的承传和变例

.2.3唐五代时期的新兴语气词

2.3.1後

2.3.2无、摩

2.3.3聻、裏

2.3.4了

2.3.5者、着

2.3.6在

3宋元时期语气词的发展

3.1承前使用的语气词发生的变化

3.1.1文言语气词的使用日益衰减

3.1.2唐五代新兴语气词沿用中的变化

（1）无、麽、末、嘛

（2）裏、里、哩

（3）後、好

（4）者、着

3.2宋元时期新产生的语气词

3.2.1呵、阿

3.2.2哑、呀、口叚

3.2.3哪、刺、喇

3.2.4咱、则箇

3.2.5休、罢、波

3.2.6些、沙、唦

3.2.7的

3.2.8去来

3.2.9也么哥

3.2.10罗、啰、嚛

3.2.11咳

4明清时期语气词的沿革

4.1沿用语气词的绪余

4.1.1无、也无

4.1.2咱、则个

4.1.3休、些

4.1.4者、着

4.2沿用语气词的字形规范

4.2.1麽、吗

4.2.2罢、吧

4.2.3波、啵

4.2.4耶、哑、呀

4.2.5那、呐、哪

4.2.6呵、阿、啊、哇

4.2.7哩、咧、呢

4.2.8罗、嚛、啰

4.2.9了、啦

4.3新生的合音语气词和语气词的系统化

4.3.1合音语气词：呦、喽、哢、啵

4.3.2语气词的系统化

4.4语气短语词

4.4.1不成

4.4.2罢了、罢咧

4.4.3来着

4.4.4着哩、着呢

4.4.5便了、就是、就是了

4.4.6不是

参考文献

主要引书目录

后记

点击收起↑

Posted on: Excited about Exclamations (Part 3)

Hi Keth,

Addition to my earlier reply above, returning to the earlier issue - did some invesitgating, and found a good article on this phenenomon:http://ling.cass.cn/yuyin/report/file/2006_1.pdf

Note in particular page 8 (or 4 as the pdf counts the pages), where we have tone mappings of the difference between the same information first as a statement and then asked as a question, and then the author's discussion I quote below:

图 3: 发音人Z念的“吴先生五月五号要去重庆。”(上图前部)和“吴先生要去重庆?”(上图后部) 各音节的F0曲拱(上图)和时长(下图)

图 3 是发音人Z念的“吴先生五月五号要去重庆。”和“吴先生要去重庆?”短语各音节的F0曲拱和时长。 按得到表 2 同样办法对“吴先生要去重庆?”做实验。疑问短语“吴先生要去重庆?”各音节总体F0曲拱的 音阶比陈述短语“吴先生五月五号要去重庆。”的高,但听音人认为“吴先生要去重庆?”除“庆”外的疑问 信息只有 5%;听音人认为疑问信息 95%由“吴先生要去重庆?”末了音节“庆”携带。

So apparently in this example the entirety of the question had a lift in tone, rather than just the last part, but the perception of listeners is that most of the rise in tone occurs on the last words....I apprently was suffering from the same misperception, haha. But in other examples they list alot of the raise in tone does seem concentrated in the end of the sentence...maybe that's why listeners percieve it that way in this case...

This paragraph seems to sum things up well, from one page down.

表 3 给出C和S疑问(疑问强度 80%以上)边界调F0曲拱的起点音阶高于和等于陈述的平均半音。表 3 是按 照同一对中疑问边界调F0曲拱的起点音阶和陈述的之差计算:例如,把 C担任服务员时的回声问“金先生要 去西安?和C作为客人时的陈述语气“金先生要去西安。”作为一对,分别计算这一对中疑问的“安”和陈述 “安” F0曲拱的起点音阶,然后求其差值。从表 3 看到,疑问边界调F0曲拱的起点音阶有两种情况:绝大多 数比陈述的高,少数不抬高。C平均高 4.4 个半音,S平均高 3.6 个半音。如果疑问边界调F0曲拱的起点音阶

不抬高,其F0曲拱斜率一定增大。

So in the example sentence 金先生要 去西安 read as either statement 陈述 or question 疑问, the final word 安 in the question when compared to the statement "is higher on tone in the vast majority of the cases" (绝大多 数比陈述的高)

Obviously this is only dealing with the question vs statement issue, but I imagine once that is established the use of sentence tone changes to convey other mood or emotional information and stuff should seem natural enough.

Posted on: Excited about Exclamations (Part 3)

Hi Keth,

I think that is a false assumption - that there is any relationship between being a tonal language and the use of modal particles. Perhaps modal particles seem odd to us because we lack them in English, whereas a German speaker would find it perfectly natural to have them...essentially, I think trying to search for a 'need' for their use is making the mistake of treating English as a universal standard (and at any rate languages don't seem to develop that efficiently - think of all the things that are arguably extranous in Chinese language and all the things that by being absent introduce ambiguity).

In the present case any argument of causality is flawed even without considering the realities of modern Chinese speech. Modal particles were in use during the Spring and Autumn Period (in heavy evidence throughout classical writings), and yet the language had likely not yet developed any tones at that point in history (the tones probably developed later out of consonant endings, which of course are absent in modern Chinese).

Like I mentioned, should be simple enough to confirm the use of sentence tone - just listen closely to natural speech (anything but slow speech directed at a learner should work). The easiest to perceive is the difference between a question and an affirmative statement, since there is a huge difference in tone on the last words between these two types. But really you could just listen closely to any bit of speech, and observe how average tone rises and falls in a myriad of ways with the mood and meaning conveyed.

Posted on: Excited about Exclamations (Part 3)

Hi Keth,

This is actually quite mistaken. Chinese expresses mood with sentence tone changes just as in english. For example, yes or no questions can omit 吗 - simply raise your tone steadily on the last few words of the sentence, again just as in english.

Anger, questioning, affirmation, anything you'd like is expressed with tone changes over the sentence (and one of the chief giveaways of being a foreign learner is a machine-like, steady tone emotionless way of speaking).

Of course, the tones of the individual words are preserved (to the qualified extent that they are in normal speech) - the key is recognizing the difference between altering the whole sentence tone and the tone pattern of individual words. So, for example, in a question sentence, the tone is lifted over the last few words, meaning that the lowest point of the falling 4th tone on the last word of a question may actually be higher than a high 1st tone at the begining of the sentence. Or, for the opposite example, in a normal statement, the tone falls over the course of the sentence, so all the tones will be lower than the same tones appearing at the begining (sometimes dramatically actually, which is why the final word in natural spoken sentence can be harder to discern when spoken by a male with an originally low voice). Thus, Mandarin conveys mood through changes in the average tone, or the range over which the tones operate.

Modal particles are not confined to tonal languages - in fact, I doubt there is any relationship at all between their presence in a language and the use of tones. Looking to wikipedia on 'modal particles' lists dutch, german, indonesian, and japanese as examples of lots of modal particles - though in the next paragraph it contains the same mistaken notion regarding chinese that you voice (citing a book on Chinese written by a Westerner - I imagine it is a fairly common misunderstanding among learners). Of course, no reason to trust me - You could probably confirm this easily enough by listening closely to normal speech and looking for such changes in the tone range. Another possibility is to simply have a native speaker record a few questions and a few statements and then analyze it in one of those tone mapping programs - you can visually see the difference easily over the course of the sentence. The only book for learners I've seen than discusses this is the old foreign language lnguage series book available for free on the itnernet - I think it has been forgoten or misunderstood by almost all modern language programs (and it is something native speakers do without a nessecary consciousness of it)